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617 Sqn Grave Vandalised!

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617 Sqn Grave Vandalised!

Old 18th Jul 2020, 23:32
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Lomcevak, we have some friends over tonight for supper, one of the married couples is African American, late 50ís. The husband is ex US Army.

I asked if they would mind reading through this thread, give an opinion on the subject matter.
Husband had an inkling about what the RAF was, wife no idea.
Before they did, let them browse a condensed version of the dams raid.

The husband appeared to read most of it, the wife just shook her head and disappeared into the kitchen.

When he had finished, and please, nobody get offended at this, his opinion was ďSo this N...... is supposed to be upset about a black dog in the 1940ís called N....... why? They would be really upset if I told them what we called our pet stray dogs in Desert Storm!Ē

Now, I understand that is only one persons opinion, but itís a start. Be interesting to hear what others opinions are.
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Old 19th Jul 2020, 03:10
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Originally Posted by Vortex Hoop View Post
Comments like these on Sqn numbering demonstrate quite clearly that you have no idea what you are talking about. Please stop labelling those who have served as racist, as it is obvious you have not.
OK - have it your way. If the media turn against the RAF, and they could easily, it may be 617 consigned to history. This is seriously controversial stuff in these times. Petitions to keep an inflammatory word on 'public display' in the middle of the station, where it has to be guarded by a 6ft fence? Seriously?

Using any opportunity to type the word on this thread. Oh it's OK because the RN named a ships cat back in the day. Ha ha - we used the call sign in the 1990s and it didn't go down well.

Of all the film's of heroic raids that really could do with an update and CGI makeover, it's the Dams Raid. And what's the first brick walk they hit? The name of the dog. Today it has racist tones. They are not even under tones. 3 dams 3 code words. Use the other one? No. It's the name of 'the' dog.

As for claiming its a 'war grave', talk about disrespect in a thread about respect of the countries past fallen!

Originally Posted by mopardave View Post
Very kind of you to allow anyone to argue with you................and then you tell them to "shut up"! Freedom of speech is okay, so long as it's yours, right? Cheers mate............I bet you're a right laugh on a night out!
If I was on a night out and this conversation was had in public I would walk away. You are skating on thin ice here. It's not about my opinion. Even I don't care about my opinion. I'm not telling you to 'shut up' to curtail you freedom of speech. Im exercising my freedom of speech to strongly suggest you pick another bit of history to go to the wall over.

Then I read how important the dog is to 617 and I think I could be totally wrong. Are they prepared to risk disbanding the Squadron over this? Maybe.

Originally Posted by just another jocky View Post
But then it's not the name of the dog that was important, it's the dog that was important....that's a big distinction in this case. The dog was important, still is to those current and ex-members of the Sqn, and it had a name. Yes, it is very unfortunate that it had a name that carried disrespectful, hateful connotations, but it was of the time as has been explained so eloquently on here by others. But it was his name.
If the media and BLM focus on this ....

AprŤs moi le dťluge

Good luck!

Last edited by Islandlad; 19th Jul 2020 at 04:38.
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Old 19th Jul 2020, 04:02
  #183 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Islandlad View Post
OK - have it your way. If the media turn against the RAF, and they could easily, it may be 617 consigned to history. This is seriously controversial stuff in these times. Petitions to keep an inflammatory word on 'public display' in the middle of the station, where it has to be guarded by a 6ft fence? Seriously?

Using any opportunity to type the word on this thread. Oh it's OK because the RN named a ships cat back in the day. Ha ha - we used the call sign in the 1990s and it didn't go down well.

Of all the film's of heroic raids that really could do with an update and CGI makeover, it's the Dams Raid. And what's the first brick walk they hit? The name of the dog. Today it has racist tones. They are not even under tones. 3 dams 3 code words. Use the other one? No. It's the name of 'the' dog.

As for claiming its a 'war grave', talk about disrespect in a thread about respect of the countries past fallen!


If I was on a night out and this conversation was had in public I would walk away. You are scating on thin ice here. It's not about my opinion. Even I don't care about my opinion. I'm not telling you to 'shut up' to curtail you freedom of speech. Im exercising my freedom of speech to strongly suggest you pick another bit of history to go to the wall over.

There is nothing quite so futile as judging one generation by the standards of another. The Cancel Culture is the most pernicious , illiberal, pseudo intellectual, virtue signalling drivel to be created in this sad post modern world. I have zero confidence that the so-called Western World has the wit or the courage to defend its values anymore. Its over folks. The future belongs to China.
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Old 19th Jul 2020, 05:58
  #184 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by George Glass View Post
There is nothing quite so futile as judging one generation by the standards of another. The Cancel Culture is the most pernicious , illiberal, pseudo intellectual, virtue signalling drivel to be created in this sad post modern world. I have zero confidence that the so-called Western World has the wit or the courage to defend its values anymore. Its over folks. The future belongs to China.
Perfect summation.


Seems Gibson's dog spawned a TV series!
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Old 19th Jul 2020, 07:22
  #185 (permalink)  
 
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For the record the word 'niger' is the Latin nominative masculine singular for the colour black. It is pronounced with a long 'i' as in 'neeger'.

Gibson would have learned Latin at school so given that the dog was masculine the literal translation of 'Nigger' in the context he used it would have been 'black dog'.

There is no suggestion that the term was used was used as a derogatory reference to African Americans.

Had the dog had white fur he might have called it 'Albus' - 'white dog.

If it had had brown fir he could have called 'Fulvus' or 'Spadix'.

If it had been auburn or redidish brown he might have called it 'Zingiberi' but that might have raised a few eyebrows in the Mess is it's a neuter noun and could have attracted some banter.

Obviously, in today's terms that could be seen as offensive to red heads and that's really dodgy as they can be really feisty about having their race treated humorously as I know being married to one!
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Old 19th Jul 2020, 07:28
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Originally Posted by Spartacan View Post
For the record the word 'niger' is the Latin nominative masculine singular for the colour black. It is pronounced with a long 'i' as in 'neeger'.

Gibson would have learned Latin at school so given that the dog was masculine the literal translation of 'Nigger' in the context he used it would have been 'black dog'.

There is no suggestion that the term was used was used as a derogatory reference to African Americans.

Had the dog had white fur he might have called it 'Albus' - 'white dog.

If it had had brown fir he could have called 'Fulvus' or 'Spadix'.

If it had been auburn or redidish brown he might have called it 'Zingiberi' but that might have raised a few eyebrows in the Mess is it's a neuter noun and could have attracted some banter.

Obviously, in today's terms that could be seen as offensive to red heads and that's really dodgy as they can be really feisty about having their race treated humorously as I know being married to one!

Quite so.
But you have made the mistake of adding context and complexity.
The new Red Guard will have you in a re-education camp for that.

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Old 19th Jul 2020, 07:43
  #187 (permalink)  
 
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Quote.........The dogs name is irrelevant.
So leave it alone you cowards. As one who served in the RAF at Scampton I'm disgusted. BLM Black Labradors Matter.

Last edited by ExSp33db1rd; 19th Jul 2020 at 08:02.
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Old 19th Jul 2020, 07:56
  #188 (permalink)  
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Yes, context that is just not relevant to the argument. Trying to explain its etymology doesnít take away the fact that the word is consired offensive. Hereís an idea, instead of just making a simple change to a headstone, letís give everyone Latin lessons. Thatíll solve it.
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Old 19th Jul 2020, 08:05
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Originally Posted by MG View Post
Yes, context that is just not relevant to the argument. Trying to explain its etymology doesnít take away the fact that the word is consired offensive. Hereís an idea, instead of just making a simple change to a headstone, letís give everyone Latin lessons. Thatíll solve it.
But it is relevant. Where does this end ? Do you have a list of monuments, books , literature, art etc. you are going to take personal authority over ?
Isnít it obvious where this ends ?
Shall we all just break out the hammers and knock the noses of everything we find objectionable ?
We have been here before.
It ends badly.
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Old 19th Jul 2020, 08:13
  #190 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by George Glass View Post
But it is relevant. Where does this end ? Do you have a list of monuments, books , literature, art etc. you are going to take personal authority over ?
Isnít it obvious where this ends ?
Shall we all just break out the hammers and knock the noses of everything we find objectionable ?
We have been here before.
It ends badly.
Exactly, G Glass. One of the reasons we fought the Nazis in WW2.
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Old 19th Jul 2020, 08:13
  #191 (permalink)  
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No, it is not relevant, as the dog isn’t relevant to the telling of the story. It was a pet, it wasn’t anything more. Would we be having this discussion if it had just been cremated or if it had been a tortoise? All of this affection for the past is because we’ve all seen the film and an animal actor did a good job of looking cute.
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Old 19th Jul 2020, 08:19
  #192 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by George Glass View Post
There is nothing quite so futile as judging one generation by the standards of another. The Cancel Culture is the most pernicious , illiberal, pseudo intellectual, virtue signalling drivel to be created in this sad post modern world. I have zero confidence that the so-called Western World has the wit or the courage to defend its values anymore. Its over folks. The future belongs to China.
I think (and yes I am a white guy, this is not my fight) that the point of the BLM stuff is that we should look a bit more closely at our history and not judge it purely through the sphere of our own culture. Slavery was not OK in the 19th century, and, particularly in America, the treatment of black people was and is not OK. But I also get the problem with Cancel Culture and Non Platforming of anybody who doesn't agree. I think Obama puts it quite well:


Do I think the name of a dog on a gravestone is actually going to offend people? Probably not, there is plenty of real persecution going on that is far more worthy of attention. I suppose I don't think it is a massive deal either way, I do not think it is the 'thin end of the wedge' and next we will have remove any reference to the colour black and tear down statues of Churchill and Baden Powell because they once said something racist. Likewise I think a few adjustments here or there like removing the statue of a slave trader or removing a racist word from a gravestone is probably OK. I'm kind of 60/40 on the gravestone, mostly because I think it has become a distraction and fighting to keep it does not put the RAF in a particularly good light. There are some battles against the woke brigade that are worth fighting, i'm not sure this is it.

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Old 19th Jul 2020, 08:41
  #193 (permalink)  
 
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Its pretty simple really.
Add a plaque with a disclaimer explaining the context.
Then leave it the [email protected]#k alone.
Obama is spot on.
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Old 19th Jul 2020, 08:54
  #194 (permalink)  
 
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I'm kind of 60/40 on the gravestone, mostly because I think it has become a distraction and fighting to keep it does not put the RAF in a particularly good light. There are some battles against the woke brigade that are worth fighting, i'm not sure this is it.
My bold. I think you are confusing posters on here with the RAF. It could have become a distraction had the RAF not just got on with replacing it; the RAF is not fighting to keep it; there is no battle as far as the RAF is concerned. What private individuals wish to argue is up to them.
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Old 19th Jul 2020, 09:03
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Originally Posted by Easy Street View Post
My bold. I think you are confusing posters on here with the RAF. It could have become a distraction had the RAF not just got on with replacing it; the RAF is not fighting to keep it; there is no battle as far as the RAF is concerned. What private individuals wish to argue is up to them.
I agree, RAF plc is not fighting to keep it but there is a petition, and you can see the headlines if someone were to get hold of it "Forces personnel fight to keep racist memorial" or words to that effect.
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Old 19th Jul 2020, 09:13
  #196 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by fltlt View Post
Lomcevak, we have some friends over tonight for supper, one of the married couples is African American, late 50ís. The husband is ex US Army.

I asked if they would mind reading through this thread, give an opinion on the subject matter.
Husband had an inkling about what the RAF was, wife no idea.
Before they did, let them browse a condensed version of the dams raid.

The husband appeared to read most of it, the wife just shook her head and disappeared into the kitchen.

When he had finished, and please, nobody get offended at this, his opinion was ďSo this N...... is supposed to be upset about a black dog in the 1940ís called N....... why? They would be really upset if I told them what we called our pet stray dogs in Desert Storm!Ē

Now, I understand that is only one persons opinion, but itís a start. Be interesting to hear what others opinions are.
fltlt, many thanks for asking the question for me and please pass on my sincere thanks to your friends for taking the time to educate us all!
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Old 19th Jul 2020, 09:28
  #197 (permalink)  
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Educate us all? One couple’s view? Really?
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Old 19th Jul 2020, 09:36
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[QUOTE=Nil by mouth;10840840]"A person of Colour", is a ridiculous term!

Quite so. And before that, 'coloured' became a non-approved term. However, all that is changed: 'Black' is the word used on all the Black Lives Matter posters and placards, so it must now be perfectly all right after all.

There is a very good item on BBC World News today (look under Africa: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-53444752) which describes the part played by African slave traders in capturing and selling their own countrymen to the white slave traders. They thought it was perfectly usual and reasonable to do so - in fact some thought it was ordained by God.

So stop the pot calling the kettle black, leave Nigger alone, and let the snowflakes gibber on until they find something else to get uptight about.

Last edited by Penny Washers; 19th Jul 2020 at 11:17.
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Old 19th Jul 2020, 09:49
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Still a terrible decision by the Staish. I suppose this is what happens when you put Scopies in charge of flying stns! (Master Warning: Banter). I am sure the petition will be ignored, but at least we didn’t go down without a fight against the PC idiots.
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Old 19th Jul 2020, 09:53
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It's been said so many times on various posts " We should learn from history not erase it "

What does puzzle me however regarding the word nigger is that it's ok for a black person to call another black person nigger but not a white person. Now, how black do you need to be to use the word. Could someone with mixed race parents use it.

The original Nigger's memorial stone should be reinstated and the replacement put in a museum to show future generations what a sad place the 2020 World is becoming..
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