617 Sqn Grave Vandalised!
Without in any way minimising the skill or heroism of the crews, I think it would be worth remembering that even in the immediate aftermath the RAF recognised that the good Public Relations generated by the raid were as significant as its military effect. Gibson was sent on lecture tours, including to the USA, and the legend was built up by the book and then the film and by commemorations to an extent that the survivors of the Main Force squadrons rather resented. The dog and it’s dubious surviving grave became part of that legend. So, if we accept that PR is a significant part of the whole 617 Sqn “thing”, why would we use it to offend a large portion of the modern public by publicising what is NOW an offensive word.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
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Without in any way minimising the skill or heroism of the crews, I think it would be worth remembering that even in the immediate aftermath the RAF recognised that the good Public Relations generated by the raid were as significant as its military effect. Gibson was sent on lecture tours, including to the USA, and the legend was built up by the book and then the film and by commemorations to an extent that the survivors of the Main Force squadrons rather resented. The dog and it’s dubious surviving grave became part of that legend. So, if we accept that PR is a significant part of the whole 617 Sqn “thing”, why would we use it to offend a large portion of the modern public by publicising what is NOW an offensive word.
This is what happens when PC goes too far!
Originally Posted by Bob
I fully understand history but the ‘N’ word is the one word I just cannot bring myself to ever say out loud (to be fair P*ki is another one) even if it is in reference to
BV
During the 10 years I lived in Australia I was often referred to as the Pom or Pommy. Hardly made me angry, or “ upset” far from it ! Thought of it as term of affection from my mates !
C, mon guys get a grip, the dog’s name was Nigger period.
Because history was about THEN! It can't be changed... It is what it was. The dog's name was not meant to be offensive then and should not be taken out of context to be seen as a racial slur NOW! That should be able to be explained to those that take offence when no offence was meant.
This is what happens when PC goes too far!
This is what happens when PC goes too far!
No Wing commander would do this unless they had top cover from the CAS downwards. Because if they had not authority, they'd be having a hats on interview without coffee or biccies and their career would becoming to a screaming halt.
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Then this PR farce was unnecessary! This PR change has brought about the opposite to that intended. It has brought attention to a feeble attempt to try and cover up a perceived offensive slur that did not exist!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Air Pig, only true to a point. You makes your pitch, you pursade your boss and when it goes to rats hit, one boss may cover you and the other duck for cover. Either way you have a black mark against your name.
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Look at all the healthy discussion this has generated! Considering whether the “17 year old LAC” would, or should, be offended by the original gravestone is to my mind what BLM is asking us to do and what the almost endless D&I initiatives have been trying to instill.
I would be disappointed if anyone on this forum held the view that it would be acceptable to apply the dog’s name to anybody today; I can, however, accept people have different views and opinions about the historical use.
Perhaps by changing the gravestone we have missed the opportunity to have a colocated Force Development info panel inviting people to reflect on the changing attitudes to race in the Armed Forces and wider society? Of course, the same or similar info panel could be placed next to the new gravestone. History is important, learning from it is very important.
As far as the gravestone goes I’m ambivalent, but for the wider issue of what people find acceptable or offensive please don’t “catch up & shut up” or “move on”. We won’t get everything right, and today’s right might be judged differently in the future, but open minds are going to be healthier than closed ones.
If any of that offends you, great - tell me why and maybe I can learn from your perspective and experiences.
(Edited for poor spelling & grammar - which is obviously offensive!)
I would be disappointed if anyone on this forum held the view that it would be acceptable to apply the dog’s name to anybody today; I can, however, accept people have different views and opinions about the historical use.
Perhaps by changing the gravestone we have missed the opportunity to have a colocated Force Development info panel inviting people to reflect on the changing attitudes to race in the Armed Forces and wider society? Of course, the same or similar info panel could be placed next to the new gravestone. History is important, learning from it is very important.
As far as the gravestone goes I’m ambivalent, but for the wider issue of what people find acceptable or offensive please don’t “catch up & shut up” or “move on”. We won’t get everything right, and today’s right might be judged differently in the future, but open minds are going to be healthier than closed ones.
If any of that offends you, great - tell me why and maybe I can learn from your perspective and experiences.
(Edited for poor spelling & grammar - which is obviously offensive!)
Last edited by SwitchMonkey; 17th Jul 2020 at 20:45.
Consider this: if we remove all references (and I mean ALL, once you've started this, you can't stop here) to our racist past, how do our children learn about just how racist our society was and see how far things have moved forwards and how much further there is still to go? Changing the past to suit some current version of what is 'politically correct' is wrong at every level. That's not racist, it applies to everything, irrespective of colour, race, gender, religion etc etc etc.
Or being called by extended family in the UK "those damned colonials" really pissed off the grandmother that her son marrying a damned colonial(beneath her stead) was a viscountess with more points on the crown than she had.IE: he married up
FB
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Because history was about THEN! It can't be changed... It is what it was. The dog's name was not meant to be offensive then and should not be taken out of context to be seen as a racial slur NOW! That should be able to be explained to those that take offence when no offence was meant.
This is what happens when PC goes too far!
This is what happens when PC goes too far!
You can't have something which is in existence today and claim it's only relevant to yesterday!