617 Sqn Grave Vandalised!
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The following is part of the Australian War Memorial disclaimer in Canberra.
"It may also include historically and culturally sensitive images and moving images, sound recordings, words, terms or descriptions; such material does not reflect the Memorial’s viewpoint but rather the social attitudes and circumstances of the period or place in which it was created."
I've always liked that statement because it highlights that the memorial has chosen to reflect history as accurately as possible. You will see racist slurs amongst the exhibits. I'd like to think Switchmonkey is correct and that no one would actually use the name anymore.
"It may also include historically and culturally sensitive images and moving images, sound recordings, words, terms or descriptions; such material does not reflect the Memorial’s viewpoint but rather the social attitudes and circumstances of the period or place in which it was created."
I've always liked that statement because it highlights that the memorial has chosen to reflect history as accurately as possible. You will see racist slurs amongst the exhibits. I'd like to think Switchmonkey is correct and that no one would actually use the name anymore.
Listen to Luther Blissett and John Barnes with their wise words: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...herts-53436824
Barnes told the BBC: "I don't believe tearing down statues or changing names is the answer.
"It's about educating people about what went on in the past - but you have to be balanced."
Watford Borough Council is looking at renaming Rhodes Way, Clive Way, Colonial Way and Imperial Way in order to "reflect forward thinking".
"It's about educating people about what went on in the past - but you have to be balanced."
Watford Borough Council is looking at renaming Rhodes Way, Clive Way, Colonial Way and Imperial Way in order to "reflect forward thinking".
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Let sleeping dogs lie. History cannot be changed. Only what we choose to remember. I read about Nigger and saw the film when I was about 10. He will always be Nigger in my mind, which is where it matters!
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If this historical deletion and PC that is running rife continues, call sign Zulu (Battle of Rorke's Drift between the British Army and the Zulus in January 1879, during the Anglo-Zulu War.) will have to be changed to Zoo???
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Whatever the dog's name....
The Dog was NOT a Slave trader
The Dog was NOT a Racist
The Dog ate dog food and drank Beer
The Dog deserves the respect of his grave!!!!
The Dog was NOT a Slave trader
The Dog was NOT a Racist
The Dog ate dog food and drank Beer
The Dog deserves the respect of his grave!!!!
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Having just done a quick reverse phone number lookup of the surname N****r, there are a few around. Who's going to explain to them that PC requires that they change it lest some snowflake becomes offended?
Originally Posted by Crash alot
Historic fact is never irrelevant, It was not irrelevant to Gibson and the boys on 617 at the time and nor should it be now.
Changing history to suit current social-political climate is a slippery slope.
To be clear, I have no particular like of that name, but it was what it was and as such should remain as it was.
Changing history to suit current social-political climate is a slippery slope.
To be clear, I have no particular like of that name, but it was what it was and as such should remain as it was.
SOX80 I hate to put the fire out but the callsign was Blackdog years ago when the VC10 was still flying! Not only that but I vaguely remember 617 having to change the callsign to Blackdog (as opposed to its name) back in the 80's.
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Originally Posted by vascodegama
SOX80 I hate to put the fire out but the callsign was Blackdog years ago when the VC10 was still flying! Not only that but I vaguely remember 617 having to change the callsign to Blackdog (as opposed to its name) back in the 80's.
The real question is, will going around changing names on memorials, removing statues, etc actually change attitudes and by extension reduce the racism in society in general, or will it just be a load of empty gestures and things stay the same when the 24/7 media with its goldfish attention span has moved on to another subject?
If the latter then it’s all been a waste of time. For me this falls into the second category, it should be left as is as an example of the culture of its time, kept in its proper context, and used to educate people. Removing it also removes the opportunity to educate.
If the latter then it’s all been a waste of time. For me this falls into the second category, it should be left as is as an example of the culture of its time, kept in its proper context, and used to educate people. Removing it also removes the opportunity to educate.
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“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”
― George Orwell, 1984
― George Orwell, 1984
No, I mean the CRC callsign is no longer BlackDog, it was changed because, I assume, BlackDog was deemed potentially offensive. I believe it is now Crowbar.
Originally Posted by vascodegama
SOX80 I hate to put the fire out but the callsign was Blackdog years ago when the VC10 was still flying! Not only that but I vaguely remember 617 having to change the callsign to Blackdog (as opposed to its name) back in the 80's.
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Over 70 years ago, George Orwell predicted exactly this sort of re-writing history, with facts that don't suit current political dogma being permanently deleted and then even the 'new' facts being deleted again when that dogma changes.
In his book 1984, Winston Smith worked for the Ministry of Truth, constantly updating publications with the 'truth' that is the 'diktat' of the latest dogma.
This current re-writing of history to suite the latest 'diktats' and dogma fits exactly with the tyranny in Orwell's 1984.
If people cannot learn to live with history and learn from it, then tyrannies will be given every opportunity to take away freedom of thought.
And following that, take away all other freedoms.
What were the crews in 617 Squadron (and all of the armed forces at the time) fighting for?
Originally Posted by Trossie
1984 is coming to life. Winston Smith too.
The truth cannot be tolerated. History must be changed to suite the 'diktat' of the day. It will be changed again to suite the next 'diktat'.
Is that the 'freedom' that was being fought for?
The truth cannot be tolerated. History must be changed to suite the 'diktat' of the day. It will be changed again to suite the next 'diktat'.
Is that the 'freedom' that was being fought for?
This current re-writing of history to suite the latest 'diktats' and dogma fits exactly with the tyranny in Orwell's 1984.
If people cannot learn to live with history and learn from it, then tyrannies will be given every opportunity to take away freedom of thought.
And following that, take away all other freedoms.
What were the crews in 617 Squadron (and all of the armed forces at the time) fighting for?
Nope
You’re still not convincing me.
Changing a memorial to a dog, on a UK military establishment that had an actually offensive, racist (even several years ago it would have held racist connotations) word written on it is not Orwellian.
Many of the things going on in the world right now can definitely be described in such a manner. I doubt you will ever convince me that changing the gravestone of a dog falls into the same category.
The book shouldn’t be changed, the history books that say the name of GG’s dog shouldn’t be changed, the 1950’s movie shouldn’t be changed (I believe a remake would be correct to come up with a new name) the fact that the code word was the same name shouldn’t be changed but the memorial has been and I think it was the right thing to do.
If the memorial had been on public ground I might have felt differently (although the local council would almost certainly have done the same thing) but the RAF has taken a stand and I think it is the correct one.
I realise I’m barking at the moon and many of you will never change your minds either but it is possible you’re wrong. Just as it possible I am wrong as well.
BV
Changing a memorial to a dog, on a UK military establishment that had an actually offensive, racist (even several years ago it would have held racist connotations) word written on it is not Orwellian.
Many of the things going on in the world right now can definitely be described in such a manner. I doubt you will ever convince me that changing the gravestone of a dog falls into the same category.
The book shouldn’t be changed, the history books that say the name of GG’s dog shouldn’t be changed, the 1950’s movie shouldn’t be changed (I believe a remake would be correct to come up with a new name) the fact that the code word was the same name shouldn’t be changed but the memorial has been and I think it was the right thing to do.
If the memorial had been on public ground I might have felt differently (although the local council would almost certainly have done the same thing) but the RAF has taken a stand and I think it is the correct one.
I realise I’m barking at the moon and many of you will never change your minds either but it is possible you’re wrong. Just as it possible I am wrong as well.
BV
Bob V, I agree with 99% of what you’ve said in your posts. The 1% that I disagree is where you say that a new film could change the dog’s name. That IS changing history. To me, the dog isn’t an integral part of the story and it can just be ignored or, at the very least, its name doesn’t need to be said. I’ve had friends argue that the loss of his pet had an effect on Gibson’s mindset during the operation and I’ll accept that so, maybe, it needs to be featured. But it can be done carefully without raising its name. As for the code word, how important is that to the telling of the rest of the operation? Again, it can be avoided.
Last edited by MG; 18th Jul 2020 at 11:14.
MG
That’s fair enough. I get your point about the movie. Glossing over it would probably be the best bet rather than changing it.
If a movie gets made about the Dambusters I would hate for the attention of the worlds media to be focused on the name of a dog rather than the missions.
BV
If a movie gets made about the Dambusters I would hate for the attention of the worlds media to be focused on the name of a dog rather than the missions.
BV
Originally Posted by Bob Viking
That’s fair enough. I get your point about the movie. Glossing over it would probably be the best bet rather than changing it.
If a movie gets made about the Dambusters I would hate for the attention of the worlds media to be focused on the name of a dog rather than the missions.
BV
If a movie gets made about the Dambusters I would hate for the attention of the worlds media to be focused on the name of a dog rather than the missions.
BV
Yet now it is front and centre. Any new movie could have easily have omitted the word without causing this erasing of history.
Remember when ISIS were erasing history at Palmyra? Statues, street names, buildings, books,. What's next?
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https://www.change.org/p/r-a-f-scamp...Q3MmYyZQ%3D%3D
link here to petition if you feel so inclined I did
David
link here to petition if you feel so inclined I did
David
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There must be thousands of books on sale worldwide with the word “Nigger” printed In them, some telling the story of slavery. Clearly, we must make It illegal to own one then gather them up and burn them.
The decision to remove and replace the headstone with a false copy is wrong on every level and simply panders to the professionally offended minority of which it seems the RAF’s high-priced help are now members.
The decision to remove and replace the headstone with a false copy is wrong on every level and simply panders to the professionally offended minority of which it seems the RAF’s high-priced help are now members.
