617 Sqn Grave Vandalised!
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Originally Posted by flighthappens
The fact that the word was being used as a C/S in the 90's, but particularly on CONUS shows a lack of understanding. For the record, I didn't get it either (I just knew it was a naughty word, not to be said) until I moved to the US and understood the deep hurt inflicted across multiple generations, and the continued lack of social equality.
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You too.
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking
I understand how Sqn history and loyalty works. I am also an avid reader of all VC exploits and have undying respect for all who have earned it. Indeed as a past member of 6 Sqn and 419 Sqn I know what it is like to serve on a Sqn who can boast a VC among their alumni.
I have total respect for Gibson and fully respect his right to have called his dog whatever he wanted. My opinion of him is not changed by his choice of canine epithets. My opinion of you for standing up for what you believe in is also unchanged (though some people may well form a different opinion).
I just cannot abide the N word and all it stands for in the modern era. I honestly do not think a memorial plaque with that word on it belongs on an RAF station in 2020. It should live in a museum, where it can be viewed in a better context and contribute to a wider discussion.
I realise we will never agree on the matter but, just as I promise not to view you as a racist, please don’t see me as a modern luvvie, snowflake who wants to erase history. Far from it. But I draw the line at the N word in this context.
BV
I have total respect for Gibson and fully respect his right to have called his dog whatever he wanted. My opinion of him is not changed by his choice of canine epithets. My opinion of you for standing up for what you believe in is also unchanged (though some people may well form a different opinion).
I just cannot abide the N word and all it stands for in the modern era. I honestly do not think a memorial plaque with that word on it belongs on an RAF station in 2020. It should live in a museum, where it can be viewed in a better context and contribute to a wider discussion.
I realise we will never agree on the matter but, just as I promise not to view you as a racist, please don’t see me as a modern luvvie, snowflake who wants to erase history. Far from it. But I draw the line at the N word in this context.
BV
Or they could assume it's just a racist slur, like a lot on here.
We shouldn't be afraid of the past, nor should we assume offence on behalf of others we don't know.
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Originally Posted by flighthappens
The fact that the word was being used as a C/S in the 90's, but particularly on CONUS shows a lack of understanding. For the record, I didn't get it either (I just knew it was a naughty word, not to be said) until I moved to the US and understood the deep hurt inflicted across multiple generations, and the continued lack of social equality.
Have a great day!
Have a great day!
They certainly aren’t offended by it.
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Originally Posted by BBK
What I’m trying to illustrate that the gravestone was not vandalised at all. The new one, assuming that the one shown is that on the right, has the same text as previously. Only the name of the dog has been omitted. Does that qualify as rewriting history? All this outrage over a minor change that in my opinion was quite sensible given the evolving political climate.
Bing and Tashengurt made a very good point that it would be unacceptable for a serving member of the RAF especially from an ethnic minority to be faced with such a racially abusive word. Also, like Bob V I just find it unacceptable and insulting.
One last point I’d like to make is that it’s disingenuous to suggest that this word has only become unacceptable recently in the light of pc or woke culture. I first heard the name of the name of the dog probably in the late seventies from my late father. He was Vulcan ground crew on 230 OCU in the fifties so was well aware of the history of 617 squadron. He was quite clear to me that it was highly insulting to use that word. There you go, a lesson in treating your fellow men and women with a modicum of decency and respect from someone who would now be 86.
BBK
Bing and Tashengurt made a very good point that it would be unacceptable for a serving member of the RAF especially from an ethnic minority to be faced with such a racially abusive word. Also, like Bob V I just find it unacceptable and insulting.
One last point I’d like to make is that it’s disingenuous to suggest that this word has only become unacceptable recently in the light of pc or woke culture. I first heard the name of the name of the dog probably in the late seventies from my late father. He was Vulcan ground crew on 230 OCU in the fifties so was well aware of the history of 617 squadron. He was quite clear to me that it was highly insulting to use that word. There you go, a lesson in treating your fellow men and women with a modicum of decency and respect from someone who would now be 86.
BBK
Anyone that is a child of the 80's, 70's, 60's and onwards back is aware of how society was then. We all should have known better, but that's easy to say today. Yes, respect to yr Dad, but cultural racism is difficult to erase and takes time.
fltlt
We know where you’re going with that comment. But the one vital fact you’ve missed is that it would be black people saying it to other black people. That is their prerogative. Though it would be much easier to deter everyone from using it if nobody were to use it.
As a white person I do not have the right to use that word and I’m fine with that.
Please don’t use that last comment as your argument in favour of the dog’s name. Others have put forward far more eloquent arguments.
BV
As a white person I do not have the right to use that word and I’m fine with that.
Please don’t use that last comment as your argument in favour of the dog’s name. Others have put forward far more eloquent arguments.
BV
I think the amount of traffic on this thread kind of makes the point for removing the name. Like it or not the word was offensive in the 19th century, it was offensive in 1940 and it is offensive now. For many the word has come to epitomise the subjugation, abuse and marginalisation of an entire race. Clearly many don't care if people are offended by it but you must admit it is a huge distraction from the Dambuster's story.
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Originally Posted by SOX80
....but you must admit it is a huge distraction from the Dambuster's story.
Originally Posted by SOX80
Clearly many don't care if people are offended by it....
And many people may be offended by your implied racism when you have no facts to support it. Woke liberal/left populism and bullying is no substitute for a proper discussion, and neither is attempting to delete the past.
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Originally Posted by SOX80
I think the amount of traffic on this thread kind of makes the point for removing the name. Like it or not the word was offensive in the 19th century, it was offensive in 1940 and it is offensive now. For many the word has come to epitomise the subjugation, abuse and marginalisation of an entire race. Clearly many don't care if people are offended by it but you must admit it is a huge distraction from the Dambuster's story.
Originally Posted by just another jocky
It is when people keep brining up a very minor part of a much bigger story.
Clearly? Who exactly?
And many people may be offended by your implied racism when you have no facts to support it. Woke liberal/left populism and bullying is no substitute for a proper discussion, and neither is attempting to delete the past.
Clearly? Who exactly?
And many people may be offended by your implied racism when you have no facts to support it. Woke liberal/left populism and bullying is no substitute for a proper discussion, and neither is attempting to delete the past.
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking
We know where you’re going with that comment. But the one vital fact you’ve missed is that it would be black people saying it to other black people. That is their prerogative. Though it would be much easier to deter everyone from using it if nobody were to use it.
As a white person I do not have the right to use that word and I’m fine with that.
Please don’t use that last comment as your argument in favour of the dog’s name. Others have put forward far more eloquent arguments.
BV
As a white person I do not have the right to use that word and I’m fine with that.
Please don’t use that last comment as your argument in favour of the dog’s name. Others have put forward far more eloquent arguments.
BV
The older generation of African Americans, at least the ones I hear, are somewhat bemused that white folks have taken up the BLM message. Add to that their view is that unless the black community itself gets its act together, no amount of slogans/chants/marches/money/wokeness will make any change.
Thats it, no other agenda, sorry.
Old saying, sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.
Not to defend any position for/against, however it does seem an awful lot of folks like to spend their time pole vaulting over mouse turds.
Somewhat curious though, why any color person should anyone be denied using any word in the English language, there are many, many more offensive/vile/demeaning words, should they all be assigned an only x, y, z, color can only say which one?
Having done that, would you then recommend working our way through every other language in the world to remove ours and theirs?
Again, pole vaulting over mouse turds.
If that is your choice, fine.
Last edited by fltlt; 18th Jul 2020 at 20:02.
Seems to be getting out of hand (OK, I am of the older generation but I do not condone racism in any form)!. One of my best mates in 1962 at Wyton was a Trinidadian Flt. Lt (AEO), the "insults" flowed both ways and we remained (along with many others) best mates until he died. He must have been one of very few coloured aircrew officers in the RAF in those days but (in my opinion) he was one of the best in all ways and, to my current amusement, a great fan of Gibson and his dog ! Times change, but do not judge anyone by their colour, only by their actions !
Bill
Bill
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Originally Posted by Bill Macgillivray
Seems to be getting out of hand (OK, I am of the older generation but I do not condone racism in any form)!. One of my best mates in 1962 at Wyton was a Trinidadian Flt. Lt (AEO), the "insults" flowed both ways and we remained (along with many others) best mates until he died. He must have been one of very few coloured aircrew officers in the RAF in those days but (in my opinion) he was one of the best in all ways and, to my current amusement, a great fan of Gibson and his dog ! Times change, but do not judge anyone by their colour, only by their actions !
Bill
Bill
Before anyone jumps on the you are a racist, nope, treat each human I meet with respect, everyone deserves at least that.
Avoid imitations
Rick Stein, the famous TV chef, used to have a dog called Chalky. His name was mentioned many times in the programmes, which are still shown.
Surely, in balance, these references should be bleeped out. Somebody, somewhere, must be offended.
Surely, in balance, these references should be bleeped out. Somebody, somewhere, must be offended.
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I would really like to know the opinions of black people on this matter, that is the people for whom this word would be offensive in current times. I would further sub-divide this into those who are knowledgeable of Operation Chastise and those who are not. Perhaps those who are in touch with black friends could canvass their opinion? Unfortunately, my black friends are all abroad but as soon as I can travel on holiday I will certainly discuss this with them. If they would be offended by the use of the dog's name on the original plaque on the memorial then I most certainly would respect their views and agree that it was right to replace it. However, if they felt that it was not offensive to them then I would consider that it should not have been replaced. I am not a person who is offended on behalf of others but I always respect the views of those who may be offended in situations such as this.
There has been no direct statement as to who made the decision to replace the plaque. I have seen one comment that it was the West Lindsey Council but cannot confirm this. Does anyone on here know?
What has happened to the original plaque? It is a historic article that should be preserved in an appropriate context. My suggestion would be that it should be kept by 617 Squadron with their other memorabilia but I am sure that there are other very suitable places.
There has been no direct statement as to who made the decision to replace the plaque. I have seen one comment that it was the West Lindsey Council but cannot confirm this. Does anyone on here know?
What has happened to the original plaque? It is a historic article that should be preserved in an appropriate context. My suggestion would be that it should be kept by 617 Squadron with their other memorabilia but I am sure that there are other very suitable places.
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Some proper dinosaurs on here. Its just a dog, its name is offensive now and was back then to those offended by it. History is just history, stop looking back on it with rose coloured specs. Its nice to look back on and an easy motivational tool but dont pretend the influence of anyone involved in this story changed the world, it was small potatoes. Move on, the vast vast majority of you werent there.
Originally Posted by LOMCEVAK
What has happened to the original plaque? It is a historic article that should be preserved in an appropriate context. My suggestion would be that it should be kept by 617 Squadron with their other memorabilia but I am sure that there are other very suitable places.
Originally Posted by Islandlad
Agree. 617 is not the only squadron in the RAF. This thread, when read by outsiders, puts quite a spotlight on the institution which clearly does not want to be seen as racist. Removing the plaque and replacing it with a less offensive version does not change the history. Insisting that it is not offensive and should stay does not look good in 2020. We all know the history. If these comments continue it may look easier to disband 617 and go for number in sequence. 617 are way out on their own in the list of active squadrons. The film will never be re-made for one reason. The Squadron could have a short future for that same reason. As I said before - catch up and shut up!
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One thing I have observed us that the discussion on this thread is much healthier than the current trend of just labelling every contrary view as an 'ism' or shouting it down without any engagement.
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"A person of Colour", is a ridiculous term!
I am a person of colour, I happen to be a fair skinned easily sunburned pinky colour:
I received a whatsapp today from my sister in law that her son (a serving officer) has just paid £1000 for a black labrador puppy.
The veterinary check has revealed that it has only one testicle!
Should he name it Adolf?
I am a person of colour, I happen to be a fair skinned easily sunburned pinky colour:
I received a whatsapp today from my sister in law that her son (a serving officer) has just paid £1000 for a black labrador puppy.
The veterinary check has revealed that it has only one testicle!
Should he name it Adolf?
Originally Posted by Islandlad
I have though about not responding to this thread. What I write will not be received well by many contributors. Here we go.
What the men of 617 did that night was heroic. They deserve the title. Sadly their memory and legacy will be tarnished because of a racist name given to a dog and the code word used that night. Any attempt to defend it and say it is not racist by some convoluted arguments will put you in the racist camp today. If you try to defend it you are quite simply a racist.
By all means argue with me. It is your right. A right the men of 617 and all the others who fell to protect that freedom , and still do, have given us. But I send you a warning. If you carry on down this path, the attention will turn from the 'grave' of a dog, to the Squadron itself. If you push back on the grave marker, I predict that 617 squadron will be the next target.
Was Guy Gibson a racist? Probably. But one of the 'soft' racists who gave his dog a controversial name. It's what the world was like then. We can all think of examples of our own 'soft' racism and that of previous generations. Let's see it for what it was. Don't defend it and accept the world has moved on for the better. If you argue with me you will turn the spotlight on the Squadron itself. The days of 'soft' racism are long gone. Today you are just a racist.
And by you I mean anyone who attempts to defend any of this today. Do so if you wish. Others are trying to address histories racist undertones. Changing the grave marker goes some way towards that. It does not change history, it recognises that the past was not always a great place. It's the same past that men and women gave their lives for, fighting the evils of Naziism.
The world has moved on. Catch up and shut up.
What the men of 617 did that night was heroic. They deserve the title. Sadly their memory and legacy will be tarnished because of a racist name given to a dog and the code word used that night. Any attempt to defend it and say it is not racist by some convoluted arguments will put you in the racist camp today. If you try to defend it you are quite simply a racist.
By all means argue with me. It is your right. A right the men of 617 and all the others who fell to protect that freedom , and still do, have given us. But I send you a warning. If you carry on down this path, the attention will turn from the 'grave' of a dog, to the Squadron itself. If you push back on the grave marker, I predict that 617 squadron will be the next target.
Was Guy Gibson a racist? Probably. But one of the 'soft' racists who gave his dog a controversial name. It's what the world was like then. We can all think of examples of our own 'soft' racism and that of previous generations. Let's see it for what it was. Don't defend it and accept the world has moved on for the better. If you argue with me you will turn the spotlight on the Squadron itself. The days of 'soft' racism are long gone. Today you are just a racist.
And by you I mean anyone who attempts to defend any of this today. Do so if you wish. Others are trying to address histories racist undertones. Changing the grave marker goes some way towards that. It does not change history, it recognises that the past was not always a great place. It's the same past that men and women gave their lives for, fighting the evils of Naziism.
The world has moved on. Catch up and shut up.
