RAF Pilot Retention
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...or that particular VSOs attitude.
The preponderance of folk on here to generalise, without anything more than singular frames of reference to support it, staggers me.
People change, attitudes change, organisations tend to move (albeit at varying rates) 'with the times'. The RAF isn't an exception and, compared to the other Services, they tend to be quicker to adapt.
All I read here is, 'it was better in my day'. Well, having served a mere 20 years, I've seen a fair amount of change - some better, some worse - yet the people are as professional and as passionate as ever, and with lots of cutting-edge kit coming in. The RAF is an exciting career if you want it. Without doubt.
Perhaps the difference is that, for many of the retired types on here, the RAF that I know has been permanently engaged on operations overseas for 25 years and not a romantic gesture of a long-forgotten Empire.
The preponderance of folk on here to generalise, without anything more than singular frames of reference to support it, staggers me.
People change, attitudes change, organisations tend to move (albeit at varying rates) 'with the times'. The RAF isn't an exception and, compared to the other Services, they tend to be quicker to adapt.
All I read here is, 'it was better in my day'. Well, having served a mere 20 years, I've seen a fair amount of change - some better, some worse - yet the people are as professional and as passionate as ever, and with lots of cutting-edge kit coming in. The RAF is an exciting career if you want it. Without doubt.
Perhaps the difference is that, for many of the retired types on here, the RAF that I know has been permanently engaged on operations overseas for 25 years and not a romantic gesture of a long-forgotten Empire.
MSOCS, your generalisation about those posting here generalising about the RAF is noted. The generalisation that I proposed, reference the attitude of the RAF High Command, is borne of the continuing cover up by said High Command of the illegal orders and actions of certain VSOs in the late 80s/early 90s that effectively sabotaged the provision and maintenance of UK Military Airworthiness ever since.
A bandwagon? Perhaps, but if it illustrates a tendency of those in the RAF High Command to not rock the boat, even if the very foundation of the RAF is at stake (ie the airworthiness of its aircraft whether past, present, or future), then the attitude of Haraka's VSO may well not be that unique at all.
That's the tendency I see, BV.
A bandwagon? Perhaps, but if it illustrates a tendency of those in the RAF High Command to not rock the boat, even if the very foundation of the RAF is at stake (ie the airworthiness of its aircraft whether past, present, or future), then the attitude of Haraka's VSO may well not be that unique at all.
That's the tendency I see, BV.
MSOCS,
You make a very good point re the tempo and stresses of the past 15 years vice the decades before. I know several that have left the SH community because they're just worn out, or the family is disintegrating due to stress/prolonged separation and, for some, the spectre of PTSD. My generation had a very different career to the Cold War generation. With the 'rest tours' and re-roles shrinking rapidly, and (however you spin it), a continual erosion of Ts & Cs and perks, then is it any surprise we find ourselves in another one of the cyclical retention troughs?
You make a very good point re the tempo and stresses of the past 15 years vice the decades before. I know several that have left the SH community because they're just worn out, or the family is disintegrating due to stress/prolonged separation and, for some, the spectre of PTSD. My generation had a very different career to the Cold War generation. With the 'rest tours' and re-roles shrinking rapidly, and (however you spin it), a continual erosion of Ts & Cs and perks, then is it any surprise we find ourselves in another one of the cyclical retention troughs?
Avoid imitations
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I know several that have left the SH community because they're just worn out, or the family is disintegrating due to stress/prolonged separation and, for some, the spectre of PTSD.
The final nail in the coffin for me was shortly after "New Management Strategy" was introduced, at the same time as large cuts in overall funding. I had a couple of leave passes rejected by our Sqn boss without any explanation. The Sqn Budget officer (same rank as me, his secondary duty) told me that no more leave passes would be processed on the squadron because there was no more money in the pot for leave travel allowance!! I lost most of my leave that year and had not been in a position to take all of my entitlement for some years prior to that, due to "exigences of the service". It was particularly galling to watch others subsequently go on leave more than once, having put in all their leave passes early. Towards the end of that financial year I was ordered to report to the Boss's office (hat on no coffee), along with a couple of others in my position. He had been personally taken to task by the AOC during his annual inspection about some staff pilots not taking leave. I was required to explain why I had only taken one week off in the year..... he seemed to think it was suddenly our own fault.
I simply grew tired of having my head trodden on, left at my 38 point and now have been out longer than I was in. Never had one day's unemployment since, 22 years later.
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Is this thread about money then? Years ago we had a family invite onboard the CVS I was then serving on. (That was a type/class of ship, crabs). Basically people brought their sons, daughters or dads onboard to live with them for 3 days transit and see how we lived, this was Gib to Pompey. One of the civvy blokes who had been invited onboard took great delight in telling me he was staying down the wardroom as his son was an officer and much better than us Junior Rates. He also told me a phrase that has never left me. "Every employer will pay you exactly what you are worth".
16 million pounds spent in training....they don't care mate. They don't care what you do, whether you win wars or more likely lose them. We live in a time of peace at home. UK war is far from the GB publics mind no matter how much the Daily Telegraph big it up with Russia.
My continuous advice to young people of all ranks, rates and accents - leave the UK armed forces as quickly as you can.
16 million pounds spent in training....they don't care mate. They don't care what you do, whether you win wars or more likely lose them. We live in a time of peace at home. UK war is far from the GB publics mind no matter how much the Daily Telegraph big it up with Russia.
My continuous advice to young people of all ranks, rates and accents - leave the UK armed forces as quickly as you can.
ShyTorque
I am sorry to read your tales of leave buggeration!
Unfortunately, the mismanagement of personel has been a secret specialisation for a long time! I agree that you can face an impossible task if you try to offer "the best" to the system. I too, failed to find a fair balance, and I gave it nearly 4 decades! Cheers
OAP
I am sorry to read your tales of leave buggeration!
Unfortunately, the mismanagement of personel has been a secret specialisation for a long time! I agree that you can face an impossible task if you try to offer "the best" to the system. I too, failed to find a fair balance, and I gave it nearly 4 decades! CheersOAP
My continuous advice to young people of all ranks, rates and accents - leave the UK armed forces as quickly as you can.
My son did exactly that......and quit the UK too. Why anyone thinks they matter is beyond me....that's not cynicism.....it's reality. When you stop enjoying the work, move on. When you get that, everything else falls in to place. I suspect the vso wasn't expressing his own opinion....he was just giving an honest opinion?
Last edited by mopardave; 29th Oct 2016 at 20:14. Reason: quotation
mopardave, everyone did matter on every squadron that I served on. Why did we matter? Because the bosses I had made you feel just that. It's called leadership. I don't care if that sounds old fashioned and slightly embarrassing, it's what a fighting service depends primarily upon. You can have all the
but it is as naught without leadership, and that begins at the very top. Telling JOs that the Service
isn't my idea of leadership.
cutting-edge kit coming in.
doesn't give a sh*t about you . Get out and get on with the rest of your life.
Telling JOs that the Service
Quote:
doesn't give a sh*t about you . Get out and get on with the rest of your life.
isn't my idea of leadership.
Quote:
doesn't give a sh*t about you . Get out and get on with the rest of your life.
isn't my idea of leadership.
cg, I've no idea whether or not Haraka felt that. That is for him to say.
If the VSO who gave him that advice felt that then one assumes that he felt the same way, or does the Service (of which he is a crucial part) only give a sh*t for VSOs? Either way is unacceptable. If the former then why hadn't the VSO taken his own advice? If the latter then the Service and the VSOs are as one in not giving a sh*t for all those not so favoured.
I don't believe either can be true for most VSOs, but for those VSOs who believe that the Service owes a duty of care to all who serve in it, it is behoven upon them to demonstrate that in their words and deeds at all times.
If the VSO who gave him that advice felt that then one assumes that he felt the same way, or does the Service (of which he is a crucial part) only give a sh*t for VSOs? Either way is unacceptable. If the former then why hadn't the VSO taken his own advice? If the latter then the Service and the VSOs are as one in not giving a sh*t for all those not so favoured.
I don't believe either can be true for most VSOs, but for those VSOs who believe that the Service owes a duty of care to all who serve in it, it is behoven upon them to demonstrate that in their words and deeds at all times.
I would have thought that telling you exactly how it is is rather good leadership? Would you have preferred it if he had lied and told you that the CAS would cry himself to sleep at night if you left?
The RAF as an organisation doesn't really give a **** about you as an individual, if it did it would probably pay better, not be fiddling with pensions and have a 'career management' organisation that actually had the capacity to career manage individuals rather than simply match names to posts. But I doubt BA or Easyjet really give that much of a sh!t about you individually either, they are just in a position to generate profit and pay their staff sufficiently such that an exodus of pilots doesn't effect their ability to make ££s.
Ultimately an organisation cares about its masters; for a company, that is the board and shareholders, for the military it is the politicians. Yes, we could solve pilot retention overnight by paying us all £150k a year, but the politicians don't want the press generated by pilots in air conditioned cockpits (or non-air conditioned 50 degC cockpits for SH guys) getting paid 5 times some soldier that spends his days dodging bullets and IEDs, so they don't do it.
Personally, I have a very good chain of command that I believe would show genuine remorse if I PVRed tomorrow, even if the RAF doesn't collectively weep for me. I enjoy my job, the lifestyle that goes with it, the people I work with (or most of them at least) and happen to think I get paid pretty well for a non-grad who hasn't had to pay a penny for flying training, work clothes, gyms, doctors, dentists, travel etc for 15 odd years. Oh, and I can get a pension next year. Granted, it isn't what it used to be but who the hell else gets a pension at 38 that is well over half the UK average annual salary?!
I think pilot retention is reaching the point that the politicians will start to care, so I think we will see some changes before too long. But if you don't enjoy your job and think you can get paid more in civvy street then leave; the RAF probably doesn't give a sh*t about you, just don't expect your next employers to care that much either!
The RAF as an organisation doesn't really give a **** about you as an individual, if it did it would probably pay better, not be fiddling with pensions and have a 'career management' organisation that actually had the capacity to career manage individuals rather than simply match names to posts. But I doubt BA or Easyjet really give that much of a sh!t about you individually either, they are just in a position to generate profit and pay their staff sufficiently such that an exodus of pilots doesn't effect their ability to make ££s.
Ultimately an organisation cares about its masters; for a company, that is the board and shareholders, for the military it is the politicians. Yes, we could solve pilot retention overnight by paying us all £150k a year, but the politicians don't want the press generated by pilots in air conditioned cockpits (or non-air conditioned 50 degC cockpits for SH guys) getting paid 5 times some soldier that spends his days dodging bullets and IEDs, so they don't do it.
Personally, I have a very good chain of command that I believe would show genuine remorse if I PVRed tomorrow, even if the RAF doesn't collectively weep for me. I enjoy my job, the lifestyle that goes with it, the people I work with (or most of them at least) and happen to think I get paid pretty well for a non-grad who hasn't had to pay a penny for flying training, work clothes, gyms, doctors, dentists, travel etc for 15 odd years. Oh, and I can get a pension next year. Granted, it isn't what it used to be but who the hell else gets a pension at 38 that is well over half the UK average annual salary?!
I think pilot retention is reaching the point that the politicians will start to care, so I think we will see some changes before too long. But if you don't enjoy your job and think you can get paid more in civvy street then leave; the RAF probably doesn't give a sh*t about you, just don't expect your next employers to care that much either!
a mere 20 years
As for advice. As a SO (without the V) I have always offered something along the lines of:
Look after yourself, the Service is too large and unweildy to look after you. At the start you don't give two hoots about the money but as you get older, and collect a spouse, house, kiddies and loans to pay for it all, you will. So throw yourself at it in your early days - heart and soul - and don't expect it to make you rich. When you get older you may need to tone down that enthusiasm and share your service with your family. When you or they stop enjoying it, and only you will know when that is and it will be quite apparent, then start to look elsewhere. But remember that you will miss the good things that serving offers, so make sure you are truly ready as I've known those leave and then rejoin as they realise they were not ready. Finally, don't expect HMForces to make you richer than the average Joe, but in retirement the pension may make life a lot more comfortable for you in the longer term. The decision is entirely yours...
I would judge that most posting on here are at the point where they need to tone down that enthusiasm and look elsewhere. Flying a bunch of holiday makers or business people in a ~300-seat flying bus might pay better, but after a while it will start to get boring. I only have to look at my mate's posts on Face-Ache to see that and how they fill their time on their days off doing something that will fill the void. How many pictures taken through the HUD of an Airbus can you post over so many years until it gets a bit too repetitive? Many of them use the extra cash to fly more exotic types during their days off to stave off the daily drudge of the Boeing Boredom Fighter.
Is RAF aviator pay about right? I believe so. However, it is the terms and conditions that have started the rot. Too many dets to the sand-pit to the same old places, reductions in standards of accommodation, loss of allowances, 1% (or less) pay rises making all feel under valued and increases in trivia burden (JPA, overuse of emails, currency/courses for just about everything, etc..) are the real driving factors when coupled to average pay. Death by a thousand cuts? Definately...
LJ
AP, you are obviously posting with a current knowledge of present day to day life in the Service, and what you say I find alarming. I assume that you are commissioned (but ready to be corrected) and thus have authority over those that are not. Would you, have you ever, told them that:-
or is such advice only given in the Officers Mess? As to comparing military service to civilian employment, you can't be serious, can you? We are talking about a disciplined fighting service, not about taking the bucket and spade brigade to Malaga.
I'm not sure really what you mean by the collective RAF anyway. My RAF was my own Sqn at my own Station. Of course there were frictions, sometimes between the two, but the Sqn was my RAF, with a boss who would fight on our behalf if need be. We knew that he would give it his all if anyone of us had personal or compassionate problems. "He" was any of the bosses that I had.
Now I know all this is old stuff. I am old stuff, but it is such old stuff that is essential if you are going to send men and women to war. This is the stuff that VSOs should be preoccupied with, not telling JOs that the Service doesn't give a sh*t but rather ensuring that it does give a sh*t! What is their job about if it isn't that?
If you think that you are poorly paid then tell me when those who serve were otherwise paid? Being an RAF officer isn't just a job, it's being able to serve your country. More old stuff; patriotism (sorry, just used the "p" word!). We are very close to being told that those who serve don't give a sh*t for their Service or their country. I don't believe that is true. Am I wrong?
I PVR'd. As mopardave says:
So I did, but I wasn't encouraged to do so in the way that Haraka was. No, to answer your question, that isn't leadership in my book.
P.S. Good post Leon!
the RAF doesn't give a sh*t about you
I'm not sure really what you mean by the collective RAF anyway. My RAF was my own Sqn at my own Station. Of course there were frictions, sometimes between the two, but the Sqn was my RAF, with a boss who would fight on our behalf if need be. We knew that he would give it his all if anyone of us had personal or compassionate problems. "He" was any of the bosses that I had.
Now I know all this is old stuff. I am old stuff, but it is such old stuff that is essential if you are going to send men and women to war. This is the stuff that VSOs should be preoccupied with, not telling JOs that the Service doesn't give a sh*t but rather ensuring that it does give a sh*t! What is their job about if it isn't that?
If you think that you are poorly paid then tell me when those who serve were otherwise paid? Being an RAF officer isn't just a job, it's being able to serve your country. More old stuff; patriotism (sorry, just used the "p" word!). We are very close to being told that those who serve don't give a sh*t for their Service or their country. I don't believe that is true. Am I wrong?
I PVR'd. As mopardave says:
When you stop enjoying the work, move on
P.S. Good post Leon!
Last edited by Chugalug2; 30th Oct 2016 at 11:57. Reason: Ps
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Not long before I left the service, I flew to Gutersloh for the Christmas duty-free booze run (do those still exist?). The circuit was hell with aircraft in every direction.
A good few years later, I was tasked to do a trooping flight from Brize to the same German airfield in a good old Boeing 737. I warned my first officer that he would have to keep a very good lookout when we arrived there as it was likely to be bedlam!
On our arrival, there were no aircraft to be seen and the only sign of activity was some poor soul walking out to his Harrier and applying electric power to it and sadly walking back to his squadron.
This, I believe, is what's changed, little flying compared to the old days.
A good few years later, I was tasked to do a trooping flight from Brize to the same German airfield in a good old Boeing 737. I warned my first officer that he would have to keep a very good lookout when we arrived there as it was likely to be bedlam!
On our arrival, there were no aircraft to be seen and the only sign of activity was some poor soul walking out to his Harrier and applying electric power to it and sadly walking back to his squadron.
This, I believe, is what's changed, little flying compared to the old days.
Chugalug2.....agreed! My own experiences were that at a "local level" during my time in the TA and in the emergency services.....you bet your boots we cared. Both about each other and the job in hand. But the reality is none of us are indispensable and political expediency means that we were/are just part of the big sausage machine. My son was asked to reconsider his decision to leave the army that he loved.....he had much more to give and they (at "local level") knew it. He was also told, with the whole options for change situation, that he wasn't guaranteed a job in 12 months time! He asked my advice and I told "don't get bent out of shape son.....just go with your gut instinct etc, etc".......and with a heavy heart he hit the eject button. Sure, at unit level, they were disappointed........did the CDS loose any sleep......I doubt it! Grab the opportunities where you can.......then eject when your heart's no longer in it and don't be under any illusions. I really do suspect that the VSO in question was just issuing a little wake up call meant with no malice.
Last edited by mopardave; 30th Oct 2016 at 14:18. Reason: OCD!
For those who think that I'm out of touch with the RAF of today, sorry, but you're wrong...
Last year I was chatting with the boss of a squadron which operates quite modern multi-pilot aircraft. A thoroughly nice chap, he told me that many of his pilots were PVR'ing and there wasn't anything he could actively do to persuade them otherwise. "So I guess it won't be long before I'll be doing the same", he concluded.
Doing my PVR porridge, a fast jet DeskO bounced into the office I was using at Binnsworth. "Got an ATPL?", he asked. "Yes". "Lucky blighter, I wish I was in your shoes"....
In the end I only used my ATPL for FI/FE work on light aircraft - although there was a possibility I might have needed a Type Rating for the instructional and development work on the military aircraft programme on which I was working after I'd left the Service.
Some have written that 'airline' pay is the main attraction for many PVR'ing pilots. "The job is very boring, but they do at least hose you down with dosh", as one of my airline pilot FIs explained a year or so ago.
It isn't really likely that there could be a substantial pay rise for military aircrew - but is money the only reason people seem to be leaving in the numbers some are claiming?
Anyway, for those staying in, I hope you'll have the enjoyment I had - for most of my time.
Last year I was chatting with the boss of a squadron which operates quite modern multi-pilot aircraft. A thoroughly nice chap, he told me that many of his pilots were PVR'ing and there wasn't anything he could actively do to persuade them otherwise. "So I guess it won't be long before I'll be doing the same", he concluded.
Doing my PVR porridge, a fast jet DeskO bounced into the office I was using at Binnsworth. "Got an ATPL?", he asked. "Yes". "Lucky blighter, I wish I was in your shoes"....
In the end I only used my ATPL for FI/FE work on light aircraft - although there was a possibility I might have needed a Type Rating for the instructional and development work on the military aircraft programme on which I was working after I'd left the Service.
Some have written that 'airline' pay is the main attraction for many PVR'ing pilots. "The job is very boring, but they do at least hose you down with dosh", as one of my airline pilot FIs explained a year or so ago.
It isn't really likely that there could be a substantial pay rise for military aircrew - but is money the only reason people seem to be leaving in the numbers some are claiming?
Anyway, for those staying in, I hope you'll have the enjoyment I had - for most of my time.
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Reading between the lines here (and quite possibly coming to the wrong conclusion, if so please advise), it strikes me that the big change is in the Powers of a Subordinate Commander, as it used to be styled. The ability to make things happen, and make them happen quickly if required, meant that a boss could sort out a compassionate situation within a few hours.
Such happened while I was away down the route. My wife's father died at home in Peru, her brother sent a telegram from the USA saying that he would book both of them MIA-LIM if she could make it for the flight. With no way of replying (no phones!) she walked down to the Guardroom from our Hullavington OMQ and poured out her heart to the duty RAFP Corporal. He in turn contacts my boss (at 0700!) who contacts BN to reserve her a seat on the midday Washington flight, contacts his Flt Cdr to tell him to run the Sqn UFN, piles into his mini, scoops up wife and hastily packed suitcase, and sets off at alarming speed for BN. They just make it, she's last aboard and the door closes behind her for departure. He then drives to the Sqn at LYN, contacts BDLS at Washington, requesting she be met and taken between the Washington airports for her flight to MIA. All goes to plan, she meets brother, and they fly to LIM...
Meanwhile, boss realises I know nothing of all this, sends signal to Lajes relating brief synopsis and will meet me on arrival LYN. He does so, first aboard and asking anxiously if I had received his signal and was it OK with me (ie wife now on way to Peru!)? I reassure him and indeed thank him for all his efforts. Wife eventually returns and we go together to thank him again and present him with a stuffed Llama which is received in a dubious but polite manner...
Now, this sort of thing didn't happen every day of course, but word got around like wild fire nonetheless. Boss's points go up several notches as all realise that next time it could be them he's looking out for. I'm told that all this is centralised these days by various desks and offices, which defeats the whole point. As stated before, the RAF is your Sqn/Unit/Wing etc, with appropriate support from outside the Station gates. If the boss can do nothing except put requests through channels then it is no longer he that is seen to be resolving (or not) the issue. The bean counters have removed his authority and hence his ability to maintain morale. They know the price of everything and the value of nothing...
Such happened while I was away down the route. My wife's father died at home in Peru, her brother sent a telegram from the USA saying that he would book both of them MIA-LIM if she could make it for the flight. With no way of replying (no phones!) she walked down to the Guardroom from our Hullavington OMQ and poured out her heart to the duty RAFP Corporal. He in turn contacts my boss (at 0700!) who contacts BN to reserve her a seat on the midday Washington flight, contacts his Flt Cdr to tell him to run the Sqn UFN, piles into his mini, scoops up wife and hastily packed suitcase, and sets off at alarming speed for BN. They just make it, she's last aboard and the door closes behind her for departure. He then drives to the Sqn at LYN, contacts BDLS at Washington, requesting she be met and taken between the Washington airports for her flight to MIA. All goes to plan, she meets brother, and they fly to LIM...
Meanwhile, boss realises I know nothing of all this, sends signal to Lajes relating brief synopsis and will meet me on arrival LYN. He does so, first aboard and asking anxiously if I had received his signal and was it OK with me (ie wife now on way to Peru!)? I reassure him and indeed thank him for all his efforts. Wife eventually returns and we go together to thank him again and present him with a stuffed Llama which is received in a dubious but polite manner...
Now, this sort of thing didn't happen every day of course, but word got around like wild fire nonetheless. Boss's points go up several notches as all realise that next time it could be them he's looking out for. I'm told that all this is centralised these days by various desks and offices, which defeats the whole point. As stated before, the RAF is your Sqn/Unit/Wing etc, with appropriate support from outside the Station gates. If the boss can do nothing except put requests through channels then it is no longer he that is seen to be resolving (or not) the issue. The bean counters have removed his authority and hence his ability to maintain morale. They know the price of everything and the value of nothing...