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Scottish Defence Force?

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Scottish Defence Force?

Old 10th Sep 2014, 00:14
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Nope, the word 'Purdah' derives from the word for curtain - the curtain is palced across all Govt Depts including Civil Servants and Politicians. It is voluntary though against an agreed moral code of conduct.
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Old 10th Sep 2014, 01:05
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Purdah applies to official announcements etc by government departments and staff during the relevant period. It doesn't prevent politicians and parties from setting out their own programmes, etc.

The UK Government (Cabinet Office) has published its purdah instructions for the independence referendum, with detailed instructions also being issued by individual departments, including the Ministry of Defence. Similar rules apply to civil servants of the Scottish Government.
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Old 10th Sep 2014, 07:12
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Here's something that actually relates to the thread!

Alex Salmond doesn't want Scotland to hear the truth about his defence plans - Telegraph
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Old 10th Sep 2014, 07:37
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The scary thing is that this position on defence reflects many areas? The answer is yes, now what is the question. If the unionists are are project fear, then surely the nats are project denial. The nats know they need every possible vote so say what you have to and deal with the consequences later. A huge travesty.
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Old 10th Sep 2014, 09:26
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Courtney

Thanks for the Daily Bellylaugh link: their journalistic standards seem to have slipped somewhat. The first sentence uses the word "throws" when it should be "throes" (followed swiftly by some elementary typos).

From two differnt dictionaries (the second with a US derivation):

Throes =

Intense or violent pain and struggle, especially accompanying birth, death,or great change

in the throes of something in the midst of, in the process of, sufferimg from, struggling with, wrestling with, toiling with, anguished by, agonized by, in the pangs of The country is in thethroes of a general election

In both examples the word does seem to be rather appropriate to the independence debate.

Mister B
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Old 10th Sep 2014, 09:59
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In the aftermath of the last Balkans war, much use was made of DNA and other forensic evidence to try to identify the bodies of Muslim or Slav remains. There was no difference. That had been instilled by Religion and the differences were eventually used to produce intolerance and then manipulated by Politicians to gain power. This was something that the United Kingdom had just about managed to put behind it.

Who would have believed that whilst we fretted about the risk to the UK post the 2010 SDR, the actual threat came from ideologues bred in our own Nation.

As Burns said in "A Man's a Man For A' That" we are all Jock Tamson's Bairns!

I hope that on the day the silent majority prevails.
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Old 10th Sep 2014, 11:26
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Originally Posted by Courtney Mil View Post
There's always the Atholl Highlanders. But where would their loyalty lie?
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Old 10th Sep 2014, 19:19
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HTB,

Glass houses and all…..but having castigated Mr Grant for spelling, your use of punctuation leaves something to be desired as well.

Have you actually read Grant's paper? If so, what has he truly got wrong? I have no idea what your military background is but, from my knowledge and understanding, Grant makes a pretty fair analysis of the SNP's Defence proposals. He also makes a pretty good summation too: it doesn't add up!

That aside, Courtney has actually tried to bring this thread back to topic so I'll assume humour rather than derision in your use of "Bellylaugh".

Not that I'm trolling, but do you have anything of value to add to the discussion?
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Old 10th Sep 2014, 20:15
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Courtney Mil,


Perthsaint makes some comments that are not unreasonable or offensive. Why do you have to sit on a high horse?
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Old 10th Sep 2014, 21:22
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Originally Posted by Courtney Mil View Post
Courtny, despite being a Yes voter, I agree entirely with the substance of the Telegraph article. The SNP's defence plans are simply not realistics. The trouble they have is that they have absolutely no informed experience whatsoever to call on. However, setting aside the relationship between defence and defence related jobs, I just don't see that defence would ever be a voting issue. It simply does not figure highly on the electorates' concerns. Now we can argue that it should but that is the reality of things. Ok so let's imagine the defence needs of Scotland was a staff college exercise - I m sure it has been! There would inevitably be a number of models, put forward by reasonably informed people, that would stand scrutiny. In an ideal world, the SNP would have been allowed to consult with the expert communities, including MoD, before hand. But that would of course never be allowed to happen. I am sure we will see something more realistic and sustainable emerge during the settlement negotiations. It will be in rUKs interest to make sure Scotland is at least capable of mounting a meaningful defence of its boundaries. I certainly can't see a sqn of Typhoons figuring in that line up; the rUK would not be so wilfully negligent (even if they could afford to lose the ac) to allow Scotland to try to field that.

Tom
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Old 10th Sep 2014, 22:31
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Public opinion in rUK will most certainly be quite actively against lifting a single finger to help defend Scotland even if it *is* to our detriment.

You see it's this sneaky idea of having something for nothing or "getting a good deal" that utterly pisses us off. It's not proud nationalist but more like one of those people that turn up after the funeral to relieve the grieving widow of the "quite minor" stamp collection.
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Old 10th Sep 2014, 22:36
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T4, if you think the SNP are spouting bollocks, just listen to your own vitriol. Sorry to hold you up as an example, but this affair is bringing out the worst in folk that should know better. Folk on both sides of this issue.
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Old 10th Sep 2014, 22:42
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Yes, Tom, agreed. But most of the stuff spouted in this "debate" is equally flawed. I just wish people would stop acting like angry teenagers.
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Old 10th Sep 2014, 23:08
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Perhaps but to expect that hearts can rule heads North of the border but that dispassionate logic prevails south is probably not reasonable.
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Old 10th Sep 2014, 23:18
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No, not really.
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Old 10th Sep 2014, 23:37
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Originally Posted by Courtney Mil View Post
Yes, Tom, agreed. But most of the stuff spouted in this "debate" is equally flawed. I just wish people would stop acting like angry teenagers.
Agreed. It's hard to keep it sensible, and I've been guilty at times. Having said that, the tone on here is a lot better than on JB. I must admit, given the amount of expertise on here it would have been good to have seen some sort of sensible discussion on what would be possible and realistic for a Scottish defence force. I can't see it happening though - too many agendas.

Tom
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Old 10th Sep 2014, 23:50
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Posted elsewhere


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Old 11th Sep 2014, 00:06
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See Tayside Aviation have one the contract to train RAF cadets.

BBC News - Tayside Aviation awarded £1.5m deal to train RAF cadets

That would be a bit odd, an independant Scotland training the RAF's future pilots

Tom
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Old 11th Sep 2014, 01:47
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A complex and emotional issue. I am not a Scot, nor do I live in Scotland so I do not have a say, only opinions. So a series of observations from a UK citizen:

This is a democratic process and the will of the people should prevail.

Economically, an independent Scotland (iS) faces significant uncertainties. Uncertainty and financial markets are a potent mix and on balance the calculating head says that a 'yes' vote carries just too much risk. But, for the brave, there is money to be made out of uncertainty too and iS could thrive on freedom if it embraces an open for business attitude and works its little tartan socks off. Nobody owes it a living. Independence may be a prized objective but will not of itself mean automatic success. The buck will stop at Holyrood. Independence brings the freedom and the opportunity to get it right or to get it wrong. Whichever it may be, either revel in it or suck it up.

The carve up of resources and assets is still to be agreed, so, while I have no vote on 18 September, I do have a vote in the general election next year. If Scotland goes its own way, I expect to hold my elected representatives accountable for ensuring that not one penny more of my taxes and share of UK assets is transferred to iS than absolutely has to be.

Pensions earned before the break up will still be backed by rUK; after independence rights earned would be paid and backed by iS. How iS will deal with the practicalities of payment of rUK pensions is an unknown but should just be a mechanical issue. How currency exchange issues will be dealt with is unclear, just as iS future currency is an unknown. So too is the extent to which anyone can rely on a financial promise backed by a Scottish government. I don't say that vindictively but there is just no history on which to base a decision. When faced with uncertainty over a sizeable proportion of my life savings a few years back, I could either rely on comforting words but no guarantees, or act to give myself certainty, albeit at a small loss. I cut and ran as I figured that with my livelihood at stake, there was only one person with my interests truly at heart. To those now faced with a similar dilemma, good luck. It's a very uncomfortable situation to find yourself in. I hope whichever call you make works for you.

I cannot see why Mr Salmond is so passionate about independence yet so wedded to the £. He's desperate to free Scotland from the shackles of 'Westminster/Tories/England' - but at the same time insistent on ceding fiscal authority for Scotland's currency to the same people. Just does not compute to me, any more than publicly promising to renege on debt as among the first acts of a fledgling country if he doesn't get his way. Very, very unwise in my view. It might play to the emotions of the masses but the boys and girls in the financial markets are an unemotional bunch who worship only at the altar of profitability, and will extract retribution in their own way.

Defence. Well, iS needs an SDSR to determine a force structure in line with it's objectives. Priorities should probably be the protection of its greatest wealth-producing offshore assets. So small fast patrol vessels, marines, helicopters, and an MPA might be more appropriate than a dozen Typhoons and a T45 destroyer for example. But what it would inherit are assets aligned to the UK's objectives, so there is a mismatch that would take years to unwind. Yet the two countries will have many shared interests, and co-operation would be sensible on any number of things. For example, air defences, north sea rigs, cyber threats, terrorist threats. There could even yet be room for negotiation regarding Trident. Current world events suggest that if ever there was a time to abandon these weapons, now is not it. The nuclear debate is a whole detour round the moral maze in itself but I can only think that those nuclear states who would wish us ill would be strengthened by any diminution in the UK's deterrent. ('Us' is rUK or iS; it makes no difference, as neither blast nor fallout stops at a line on a map). Reckless in my view.

An iS will need to quickly draw up its fiscal plan - how much it will raise in tax and borrowings, and how much it will spend. While oil still flows from the NS (and assuming oil assets are split geographically), generous social spending is affordable. When oil slows and stops it won't be. Investing some of the proceeds in a sovereign wealth fund now is therefore a vital promise the Scottish electorate must hold their government to for the long-term financial health of the country. Not something the UK can trumpet about frankly but its larger economy is more capable of bridging the gap than could iS. I can't think of any country that has taxed its way to prosperity, so having a way to finance social spending without hamstringing your productive economy is a unique opportunity. Blink and its gone.

But the rub is, if the Scots feel passionately about freedom then any amount of dry old cautious arguments count for nothing. Many may vote with their hearts and if it's a 'yes' then so be it. Salmond could be content to go down in history as the man who lead Scotland to freedom, and if that is his raison d'etre, he may care less about the credibility of some of his campaigning promises than saying what is necessary to get over the finishing line. I can't think that any leader of a party called the Scottish National Party has a bigger key objective in his job specification than Scottish independence. A big tick in that box and job done. After that, well, it could later fall to someone else to have to face up to reality, but Scotland would still be independent.

But if the Scots feel they are better off outside, then there is no point in rUk trying to bribe them to stay. It's pitiful that our weak leadership in Westminster is now panicked into doing that. They should take a leaf from the book of a famous son of Scotland, Alex Ferguson. However valuable a member of the team may be, once they want to go, or don't put the team first, it's better for everyone that they depart.

Frankly there has been much more vigour and energy from the 'Yes' contingent. Mr Salmond's has run political rings around the 'No' establishment which has looked pedestrian at best. As a campaign to achieve a single objective, it has gathered support while leaving its opposition struggling to keep up and looking a little ridiculous at times. By ridiculing his opponents, he has successfully deflected attention away from the many gaping holes in his plans. He is a clever politician, which is more an acknowledgement than a plaudit.

So if Scotland votes 'Yes', good luck. We all just have to deal with it. And I would be much saddened if the reported animosity spilled over into what would still need to be a partnership of many shared interests. There are plenty of other people around the world who wish us ill without making a difficult transition harder than it already is.

LF
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Old 11th Sep 2014, 05:37
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Future Military Service of Scots in rUK

Tongue in cheek - originally posted in Hamsterwheel

Given the proud history of the Scots in the military service of the United Kingdom, in the event of a YES vote, will Scottish citizens be given the opportunity to serve in the rUK armed services on terms similar to the Gurkhas?
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