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Scottish Defence Force?

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Scottish Defence Force?

Old 7th Sep 2014, 01:51
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As a Scotsman living in England and a pro-union chap, I can't help thinking that the impact of a yes vote will weigh more heavily on my sense of national belonging. Will I feel less Scottish all of a sudden? What I do know, is I've been very much irritated by the foot stamping over done cheering by the yes supporters in all the debates. If things work out at all like Salmond has promised everyone, then I'll be gobsmacked. One of the most worrying tell tale signs is his own reaction to awkward questions, which is well documented.

Further, I've noticed that the left leaning elements of the media have been quick to trumpet any good news for the yes folk. Apparently for the first time ever, one of numerous recent polls puts the yes campaign marginally ahead but behind when undecided votes are excluded. Judgiing by the Guardian's reaction you'd think it was a confirmed landslide for Salmond.

Roll on 18th September.

FB

Last edited by Finningley Boy; 7th Sep 2014 at 19:37.
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Old 7th Sep 2014, 08:49
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what really worries me is that the moment Scotland votes out anyone with a hint of a Scots accent in rUK will be ignored or told to "Go back home"

Things like applying for a job, or a mortgage , will become a lot tougher...........

No OVERT policy of course but ......................

I can remember how anyone with a Serf Efrikan accent was looked on in the Uk from about 1980 onwards.........
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Old 7th Sep 2014, 09:23
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I am fed up with all of this, just let them go. England is losing out on everything in order to please them. Example in local rag from earlier this year:

Yorkshire is set to miss out on tens of millions of pounds of regeneration funds as the Government diverts a huge tranche of EU money north of the border ahead of the vote on Scottish independence.

Furious MPs and MEPs from across the region will meet with Ministers this week to press the case for a fairer distribution of the money allocated to the UK by Brussels for regeneration projects.

The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) plans to divert £665m away from hard-pressed English regions from the next tranche of EU support funds, in favour of the devolved nations. The decision flies in the face of advice from EU statisticians, who insist England is in greater need of the money.

“This money is there to help the regions,” said Labour MEP for Yorkshire Linda McAvan.

“I do not understand the rationale behind this. Scotland’s economy is stronger than ours. They have taken money away from the regions, and it is not based on any economic criteria.”
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Old 7th Sep 2014, 09:38
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I've read a lot of spiteful invective on this and other independence threads Heathrow Harry, but comparing a post-independece Scotland with apartheid South Africa takes it up to a whole new level.
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Old 7th Sep 2014, 09:53
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He's actually talking about the attitude of the rest of the UK towards Scots, and how they will be treated in the same way South Africans were, so 180 out there - still sounds like rubbish, though.

and from the South Africans I've worked with, most were slightly baffled/apologetic about their country and were treated with a degree of sympathy rather than being held personally responsible (apart from the occasional idiots, but you get them everywhere...)
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Old 7th Sep 2014, 09:58
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melmothw,

I'm with SWBKCB. I'd have thought HHs intent with his comment was pretty obvious.

Perhaps you might like to rethink your last remark.
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Old 7th Sep 2014, 10:15
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Not at all Biggus, though I do agree with you that Heathrow Harry's intent was very obvious.
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Old 7th Sep 2014, 18:42
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And the future of Scotland's defence and how the UK and Scotland might work together to secure the northern flank? What division of forces might contribute to our collective security?
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Old 7th Sep 2014, 20:58
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Is this actually happening...?

As a serving pilot in HM Forces I have been increasingly troubled by what I see going on back home (Fife BTW).

The local train station's name now has a Gaelic alternative (as does everywhere in Scotland) - to foster a sense of difference with rUK or too bring in tourist cash? Who the hell knows but given that the majority of Scots never spoke Gaelic and that more people speak Polish in modern Scotland it does seem rather incongruous.

I was also struck by the ubiquity of the Yes campaign - a local shop converted as HQ, posters everywhere - questions answered...

But what worried me most of all was what seemed like the number of seemingly intelligent people lapping it up. Just reading the local papers or watching the regional TV it is clearly obvious that the SNP's tactic is to trumpet every good-news story as a victory for the Scottish Government and every negative one proof of Westminster's skulduggery. The independence campaign is broad based - because everyone one has been told that their dreams will become reality by the demagogue Salmond. Once the Yes campaign triumphs and the stark reality of the lie is apparent it won't matter - it will be too late.

I should have seen this coming - the local cinema let anyone wearing a German football shirt in for free the night I watched 'Braveheart' (England were playing Germany that night IIRC). At the end the mob wanted to kill the nearest Englishman and later it was seen that 'historical' likenesses of William Wallace resembled Mel Gibson at the nearby Wallace Monument gift shop.

So, like everyone Serving in my generation I have done my fair share in the desert and been shot at on occasion. At no time did I realise the actual threat to the country was from within. The SNP bully boys scream 'Tory!' at any one deploying a rational, logical argument as to the pitfalls of secession with all the venom of a witch hunt. It won't be long till they're wheeling out the wickermen and burning us naysayers alive.

I've gone beyond angry. Now I'm merely pissed off. I've posted my vote and will let democracy do its thing...

But if you are thinking of voting Yes please see through the smoke and mirrors. Nothing in life is free Alec. Lower taxes, more benefits, never ending oil to fund it all. At the end of the day it is just a load of bo!!ocks.
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Old 7th Sep 2014, 21:06
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Scottish Passports

In the event of the 'Ayes' winning the vote, where will the Scots go to get their new national passports; I assume they will be ineligible for British ones and should hand them in and be treated as aliens in the remaining rump of the UK.
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Old 7th Sep 2014, 21:19
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Probably not. Alec Salmond will claim Scotland invented passports... and Britain.
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Old 8th Sep 2014, 08:29
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Valmorna,

I've said this before; as I'm British, and hold a British passport, why would I suddenly find my British citizenship removed because of a yes vote?

I think you'll probably find that Scots living in England will remain British and remain where they are. They'll just be eligible for Scottish passports as well...!
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Old 8th Sep 2014, 09:01
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It seems reasonable that UK passport holders living in Scotland that are Scottish passport holders may find themselves unable to renew their passports, unless they are UK citizens by birth within the new borders.
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Old 8th Sep 2014, 09:03
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That might be in some peoples eyes a dream and the way it should be Val.

But Scots will keep what they have and be able to apply for a Scottish passport as well if they so wish.

Their kids and grandkids will also be able to apply for UK passports. For those resident in Scotland after the split if it occurs. And the same for ex pat scots and their kids with a Scottish passport.

A lot of us won't be touching a Scottish passport for many many years in the event if at all. There is going to be huge holes in the fiscal tax revenues and it wouldn't be surprising if a US style of citizen taxation comes in what ever your residence is.

Reading today there are vast quantities of funds heading south at the moment the asset stripping is already occurring. And I doubt what ever the outcome that Scotland will see those assets again.
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Old 8th Sep 2014, 09:12
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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10 Questions About Post-independence

There is a very good article in the DM today (yes, I know it's DM, but it is just plain-speaking and doesn't grind an axe). It briefly addresses the 10 big questions and even mentions the Scottish Defence Force - the subject here, remember?

SIMON HEFFER: Ten burning questions if Scotland votes yes | Mail Online
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Old 8th Sep 2014, 09:15
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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Their kids and grandkids will also be able to apply for UK passports. For those resident in Scotland after the split if it occurs. And the same for ex pat scots and their kids with a Scottish passport.
I think that this is probably incorrect. The only legal requirement on the UK is that they cannot leave anybody stateless. I think that people in Eire are not entitled to a UK passport but could apply for special dispensation to the Home Secretary on a case by case basis. This is what Wiki has to say on the subject:

As a result of the above, there is generally no special access to British citizenship for Irish citizens. The facility for those born before 1949 to claim British subject status does not confer British citizenship, although it gives an entitlement to registration as such after five years in the UK.

Irish citizens seeking to become British citizens are usually required to live in the UK and become naturalised after meeting the normal residence and other requirements, unless they can claim British citizenship by descent from a UK born or naturalised parent. An Irish citizen who naturalises as a British citizen does not automatically lose Irish citizenship.

Naturalisation as a British citizen is a discretionary power of the Secretary of State for the Home Department but will generally not be refused if the requirements are met.

Persons holding British subject status may apply for a United Kingdom passport, which is not eligible for the United States Visa Waiver Program, the Australian Electronic Travel Authority or visa-free tourist entry to Canada.[7]

Irish-born British subjects qualify for right of abode in the UK, and their British subject passport will be endorsed to this effect. Unlike other British subject passports, the passports of British subjects with the right of abode are marked "European Union", as their holders are European Union citizens.
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Old 8th Sep 2014, 09:24
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As usual the arguments for and against veer towards the emotional and the practical questions are conveniently ignored. Where will the Scots (whether resident, or ex-pat) apply to get their new passports? Scotland doesn't have a Passport Office.

Similarly for example, assuming the Scottish Parliament wishes to retain a road fund licence, where will the Scots apply to tax their cars. Scotland doesn't have a DVLA.

Scottish Defence Force? Pipedream! How on earth do they imagine they are going to operate aircraft like the Typhoon, C-130J and C-17?

And Scotland doesn't have a CAA, an AAIB, an HMRC equivalent, a Border Service etc, etc, etc. How are Mr Multi-Chins and his cronies going set up all these new, essential institutions and all the associated IT systems? And, more importantly, how are they going to pay for them? And how long will it all take?

Leaf through the SNP's 600-page "white paper" and it's immediately apparent that it's all smoke and mirrors - absolutely no detail at all.

My wife is a Scot, whose family goes back generations in Scotland. She just happens to live in England and is extremely pi**ed off that she doesn't have a vote.

I fear it will all end in tears. A good Scottish friend, who is in the process of moving his business and family south of the border said "the YES vote is being driven by mean-minded people" - witness the harassment, victimisation and vandalism being reported.

And, just for the record, being Welsh I have no axe to grind!
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Old 8th Sep 2014, 09:38
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Scotland will become another Eire. Doesn't need Typhoons/C-17's etc. A couple of fisheries machines for MPA. A non-agression pact with Russia/UK/Viking land etc and a wee dram to boot...
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Old 8th Sep 2014, 09:43
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1.3V,

On a couple of specific matters, such as CAA, AAIB, etc, these are actually covered in the SNP 600 odd page document. Their basic plan is to continue using the UK facilities after independence, through such arrangements as memorandum of understanding, etc. They even expect to put Scottish representatives in there for governance and to report back.

Several things spring to mind. Is this true independence? No mention of paying for the service. This plan also relies on the rUK agreeing to numerous concessions, with little or nothing in return, through amicable negotiations.

If Scotland becomes independent from the UK I would liken it to a divorce, it will get messy and acrimonious. The SNP document treats it more like a favoured child going off to university, yes they have gone, but they still come home at weekends and expect to borrow their parents car, use the washing machine, keep a shelf in the fridge, etc....without of course paying for the petrol, electricity....
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Old 8th Sep 2014, 11:49
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strikes me as a heads I win, tails you loose. Miliband negotiating an exit will be hilarious - I expect we will ceed all territory north of the avon to the scots and be left without a pot to piss in..... he has all the scare factor of a mildly irritated hamster.... Ed Balls if he has the proverbial might be a different proposition.

It does strike me that in the next few months the whole idea of multicultural society is going to be falling around everyones ankles.

I know I might be outlier - but I think Cameron has been smart.... taking tories to scotland is not going to help the no campaign. It is not just self preservation but I think smart politics.

Pity Farage has not been more active after the gains they made in the Euros north of the border. If we do bail out of the EU, scotland are f£$ked. Border posts will be required, not sure they can be aligned to a non EU member currency. They will not have mother to side up to if they don't like the rules.

Frankly... i am at the point now where if they want to go let em and saddle them with the proper responsibility. If they want to share they pay the market rate, they take their debt. They get the old fun jets and destroyers, they also pay their fair share in relocating the boomers to Devon / Cornwall / Humber.

Time to wake up to the harsh realities of being a country
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