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Scottish Defence Force?

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Scottish Defence Force?

Old 8th Sep 2014, 12:44
  #141 (permalink)  
 
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If we do bail out of the EU, scotland are f$ked. Border posts will be required......
Its likely border posts and immigration checks will be required on the England/Scotland border regardless of whether the rUK stays in the EU or doesn't.
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Old 8th Sep 2014, 12:59
  #142 (permalink)  
 
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Biggus,

I totally agree, there is no detail in the document, just a wish list - or is it wishful thinking?
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Old 8th Sep 2014, 13:46
  #143 (permalink)  
 
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unless they can claim British citizenship by descent from a UK born or naturalised parent
They can't take it away from you and the day after the split this will apply. So kids and grandkids will still be able to apply and get it.
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Old 8th Sep 2014, 14:11
  #144 (permalink)  
 
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A non-agression pact with Russia
Wonder how effective that would be? Ask Ukraine.

They can't take it away from you and the day after the split this will apply. So kids and grandkids will still be able to apply and get it.
That is how the rules are at the moment, of course, they can be changed when Scotland becomes a foreign country to the UK.
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Old 8th Sep 2014, 14:15
  #145 (permalink)  
 
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They can't take it away from you and the day after the split this will apply.
It is at the discretion of the Home Secretary. The UK can refuse to issue a replacement passport provided that it does not leave an individual stateless.
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Old 8th Sep 2014, 14:43
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The UK can refuse to issue a replacement passport provided that it does not leave an individual stateless
If the person currently holds a UK passport solely and does not choose to take out dual-nationality with a Scottish passport, then not reissuing it would leave them stateless, no?

Edited to add: Of course, once Scotland is independpent and the rUK has left the EU, we'll all be clammering to get Scottish passports so as to avoid applying for visas everytime we wish to cross the Channel!

Last edited by melmothtw; 8th Sep 2014 at 14:54.
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Old 8th Sep 2014, 14:57
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possibly some confusion here over the difference between 'statehood' and having a passport of that state? The many UK born and bred residents without a UK passport are not 'without a state', they have just not opted to take up the (expensive) offer of a UK passport. If someone who meets whatever Scottish nationality requirements that get established chooses not to renew a UK passport, I'd guess they will remain dual-nationality. Unless, like some countries, the new Republic of Scotland makes it necessary to renounce all other nationalities in order to become 'Scottish'? As in all these matters, we just don't know - and therein lies the crime in my view...
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Old 8th Sep 2014, 15:07
  #148 (permalink)  
 
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A I mentioned, the decision about issuing UK passports rests with the UK Home Secretary.
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Old 8th Sep 2014, 15:11
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A I mentioned, the decision about issuing UK passports rests with the UK Home Secretary.
But as you went on to add, the UK Home Secretary is bound by international agreements and laws, and so is not the sole arbiter.
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Old 8th Sep 2014, 15:38
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But as you went on to add, the UK Home Secretary is bound by international agreements and laws, and so is not the sole arbiter.
But those international laws do not mandate him to give passport to a Scots national.
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Old 8th Sep 2014, 15:41
  #151 (permalink)  
 
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But those international laws do not mandate him to give passport to a Scots national.
But what is a Scots national? I believe the question was asked by someone who, though Scottish by birth and ancestry, currently has a UK passport and resides in England.
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Old 8th Sep 2014, 15:42
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Okay, I'll take the Irish requirements, a quick find and replace of Irish with Scots with a change of year:

As a result of the above, there is generally no special access to British citizenship for Scots citizens. The facility for those born before 2015 to claim British subject status does not confer British citizenship, although it gives an entitlement to registration as such after five years in the UK.

Scots citizens seeking to become British citizens are usually required to live in the UK and become naturalised after meeting the normal residence and other requirements, unless they can claim British citizenship by descent from a UK born or naturalised parent. An Scots citizen who naturalises as a British citizen does not automatically lose Scots citizenship.

Naturalisation as a British citizen is a discretionary power of the Secretary of State for the Home Department but will generally not be refused if the requirements are met.

Persons holding British subject status may apply for a United Kingdom passport, which is not eligible for the United States Visa Waiver Program, the Australian Electronic Travel Authority or visa-free tourist entry to Canada.[7]

Scots-born British subjects qualify for right of abode in the UK, and their British subject passport will be endorsed to this effect. Unlike other British subject passports, the passports of British subjects with the right of abode are marked "European Union", as their holders are European Union citizens.
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Old 8th Sep 2014, 15:49
  #153 (permalink)  
 
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Interestingly, the original document for Irish nationals gives the date as 1949, rather than the date of independence,

As a result of the above, there is generally no special access to British citizenship for Irish citizens. The facility for those born before 1949 to claim British subject status does not confer British citizenship, although it gives an entitlement to registration as such after five years in the UK.

so your date of 2015 for the Scots wouldn't appear to be correct (have no idea why 1949 is given, maybe someone else might know). This would suggest that Scottish people have a considerable grace period yet (several decades in fact) before they need to choose either/or, and it shouldn't affect the majority of Scots currently living. This of course assumes that the Irish model, as you've posted it, would be carried over to Scotland.
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Old 8th Sep 2014, 15:52
  #154 (permalink)  
 
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Why, as a proud member of the new Scottish independent country, would you want a UK passport? Surely not as insurance against it all going horribly wrong?
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Old 8th Sep 2014, 15:58
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I imagine this question has come from Scots people who currently live and work in England/Wales/ NI, and who may be concerned about their future status.
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Old 8th Sep 2014, 16:08
  #156 (permalink)  
 
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MelmothW,

The SNP claim many powers but even their most ardent followers would not claim to be able to backdate Scottish independence to 1949, I just tried to 2nd guess what is to come.

The 1949 date is a function of the British Nationality Act 1948, which was updated by the 1981 Nationality Act. As I said before it is up to UK Government discretion as to what goes in the UK Nationality Act in the event of a Yes vote. Personally, I would expect that UK resident Scots will be able to chose if they wish to remain UK citizens. For those, North of the border I see no reason that it should follow the Eire model, do you?
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Old 8th Sep 2014, 16:12
  #157 (permalink)  
 
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Melmoth,

the 1949 date is only relevant to Ireland because it is the date the UK accepted it had no soveriegnty within the Free State of Ireland.

there was a fudge in 1921 over the sovereinty of the Head of State of the Republic of Ireland - the UK said it was the King with Ireland remaining as a constituant part of the UK (ish..), the Irish said it was the President as head of state of a completely independant country. neither side wanted to push the matter, so in the UK the King was the Head of State of Ireland, in Ireland the President was head of state of Ireland.

in the Scotland case, the cut-off date would be the date of independance - which i broadly understand to be late spring/early summer 2016 - the fundamental difference between the two cases is that the UK government accepts that from that date iScotland will be an independant country.
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Old 8th Sep 2014, 16:13
  #158 (permalink)  
 
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What would have been the point of all this if Scottish people don't want to be Scots?
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Old 8th Sep 2014, 16:42
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Thanks for the clarification on the 1949 date gents. I didn't suppose that this date would apply to Scotland also, it just struck me that if the cut-off date for Ireland was some decades after independence, then the same might apply to Scotland also (ie; a cut-off date of those not born after 2030 ish). Happy to be corrected though.

What would have been the point of all this if Scottish people don't want to be Scots?
Again Courtney, I think this question was raised by Scottish people who live and work in the rUK and who may have concerns as to their future status in this country.

I imagine that living in France you may find yourself in a similar quandary should the UK ever vote to leave the EU. It won't help you much to have French people asking what was the point of the UK voting to leave the EU if all British citizens don't want to go back to their own country.
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Old 8th Sep 2014, 17:51
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gents - melmothw is totally wrong about what I meant - I was referring to the way people used to hear a SA accent and assume they were all pro-apartheid Afrikaners

Many Scots, especially those who live in England - will be tarred with the same brush as the Nats N of the border - unfair of course but sort of understandable

I have a US colleague who used to wear a CND badge when visiting the UK during the DoubleYah years - not many people in the USA knew what it was but it sure got him a friendlier reaction in London
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