Air Cadets grounded?
G- Reg aircraft
Am i correct in thinking that the Grob Tutor are on G reg.
If so do they by definition run under at least part EASA regulations both for maintenance and use. If 'instructing' a Cadet in the Grob Tutor i would have thought the Pilot would need the appropriate 'instructor ticket' from CFS or EASA.
I can not imagine those who decide such things at MOD will think they have 'covered' themselves by not attending to such details.
Is there a difference between 'instructing' a minor as opposed to giving them control.
If a member of the public attends a civvy school for a trial lesson he has to be flown by an suitable instuctor duly licenced for the flight.
If the same person wants a 'pleasure flight' with his family he has to find an operation that has an AOC and a suitable commercial' pilot duly type checked and current. The 'Duty of Care' is the same for both counts it is just the level of regulation that is different.Either way the minimum requirement for 'club' activity would need an instructor ticket on top of his CPL. In some cases the CPL will be on grandfather rights (instructing only).
If so do they by definition run under at least part EASA regulations both for maintenance and use. If 'instructing' a Cadet in the Grob Tutor i would have thought the Pilot would need the appropriate 'instructor ticket' from CFS or EASA.
I can not imagine those who decide such things at MOD will think they have 'covered' themselves by not attending to such details.
Is there a difference between 'instructing' a minor as opposed to giving them control.
If a member of the public attends a civvy school for a trial lesson he has to be flown by an suitable instuctor duly licenced for the flight.
If the same person wants a 'pleasure flight' with his family he has to find an operation that has an AOC and a suitable commercial' pilot duly type checked and current. The 'Duty of Care' is the same for both counts it is just the level of regulation that is different.Either way the minimum requirement for 'club' activity would need an instructor ticket on top of his CPL. In some cases the CPL will be on grandfather rights (instructing only).
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I see the trawl for AEF pilots has gone out:
20160418-IBN 33 16 Additional Volunteer Air Experience Pilots.doc
Request For Additional Volunteer Air Experience Pilots – 6 FTS
• Pilots must hold either a Service Flying Badge or CPL.
• By exception, pilots with 500 hrs light aircraft will be considered subject to a positive recommendation and Flying Ability Test.
• Volunteers must either hold a Regular or Reserve Commission or meet the minimum requirements for a Volunteer Reserve (Training) Commission.
• Full conversion training will be provided on Tutor 115E aircraft.
• Volunteers should be able to contribute a minimum of 40 hours flying per year.
I don't see anything specific about VGS pilots. Would the Vigilant count as a 'light aircraft'? It is normally either a TMG or SLMG depending on your PPL type. However, hours on them do count towards revalidation of a SE(P) rating if you hold a valid SLMG or TMG rating on the same licence.
Anyone know what the criteria for VGS pilots is for transferring to AEF? Is it the same as above or something different.
LJ
20160418-IBN 33 16 Additional Volunteer Air Experience Pilots.doc
Request For Additional Volunteer Air Experience Pilots – 6 FTS
• Pilots must hold either a Service Flying Badge or CPL.
• By exception, pilots with 500 hrs light aircraft will be considered subject to a positive recommendation and Flying Ability Test.
• Volunteers must either hold a Regular or Reserve Commission or meet the minimum requirements for a Volunteer Reserve (Training) Commission.
• Full conversion training will be provided on Tutor 115E aircraft.
• Volunteers should be able to contribute a minimum of 40 hours flying per year.
I don't see anything specific about VGS pilots. Would the Vigilant count as a 'light aircraft'? It is normally either a TMG or SLMG depending on your PPL type. However, hours on them do count towards revalidation of a SE(P) rating if you hold a valid SLMG or TMG rating on the same licence.
Anyone know what the criteria for VGS pilots is for transferring to AEF? Is it the same as above or something different.
LJ
Minimum Requirements for Consideration for Conversion from Vigilant to Tutor
a. 2FTS Endorsement
b. A VRT Commission
c. 500 hrs Captain
d. B1 Gliding Instructor
e. Laudatory Report from OC VGS
f. 6FTS Endorsement
g. Successful completion of Vigilant to Tutor Conversion Course.
Additionally, to amortise training costs, a minimum period of 18 month service (post Tutor qualification) is also required (Note: maximum age for Tutor flying is 65 years).
Even this simple task of information gathering has been tragically carried out. Some returns have been lost in the ether and I hate to think how much time has been wasted by someone collating this data. And to think JM's baby (BADER) is based on SharePoint - the prefect tool for gathering such replies!
Considering many instructors have not flown anything for 2 years I can see the failure rate of conversion being very high unless a realistically achievable training package is provided.
Is there a difference between 'instructing' a minor as opposed to giving them control.
Instructing Cadets
Beardy On a trial lesson the 'client' is going to receive instruction and be given control of the aircraft;which sounds very similar to what the AEF is offering.
Because this system operates under what was private club rules (soon to be all under at FTO) no AOC is required nor is the Pilot type rated; but he has to have the required EASA Instructor rating.
In a AOC pleasure flight; control of the aircraft is NOT handed over to the 'client' who has not 'contracted'for this. However the (min CPL) pilot has to be type rated on type and have passed a recent flight test.The flight will have to be from a Lic airfield and not include a land away.
We are now talking about a 'new entry' of non service pilots to perform AEF flying which the Air Cadet Website states include; Taking control of the aircraft,Aerobatics,and low level flying. Their words not mine.In a G reg machine two of those functions would require a 'rating' and the low level bit would be difficult under EASA rules. Will non service AEF pilots be given suitable ratings. If they are only suggesting a 5hr conversion has this been thought out,or is the whole exercise just a 'well we gave them the chance to apply' scenario.
Because this system operates under what was private club rules (soon to be all under at FTO) no AOC is required nor is the Pilot type rated; but he has to have the required EASA Instructor rating.
In a AOC pleasure flight; control of the aircraft is NOT handed over to the 'client' who has not 'contracted'for this. However the (min CPL) pilot has to be type rated on type and have passed a recent flight test.The flight will have to be from a Lic airfield and not include a land away.
We are now talking about a 'new entry' of non service pilots to perform AEF flying which the Air Cadet Website states include; Taking control of the aircraft,Aerobatics,and low level flying. Their words not mine.In a G reg machine two of those functions would require a 'rating' and the low level bit would be difficult under EASA rules. Will non service AEF pilots be given suitable ratings. If they are only suggesting a 5hr conversion has this been thought out,or is the whole exercise just a 'well we gave them the chance to apply' scenario.
The clue lies in
they will be reservists of one form or another. Post RAF-service I instructed at EFT as a civilian and had to have a commercial licence and an instructor's rating. As an AEF pilot and now reservist I do not need any of these. (Although I do have them)
Cadets are not given formal instruction, none that may be counted toward the training required for a licence, but may be allowed to handle the controls.
As for all the other cases you cite, money is changing hands in a civil environment, that is the crucial difference for licencing.
There are most probably be some excellent pilots from the gliding world who will adapt to AEF flying easily.
non service AEF pilots
Cadets are not given formal instruction, none that may be counted toward the training required for a licence, but may be allowed to handle the controls.
As for all the other cases you cite, money is changing hands in a civil environment, that is the crucial difference for licencing.
There are most probably be some excellent pilots from the gliding world who will adapt to AEF flying easily.
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Why the Air Cadet Organisation is So Important to the RAF and to Society
Someone has kindly emailed me this link. It's a Research Paper from almost 10 years ago, but much of what it says is as valid today as it was back then. Worth a read - at least the conclusion for those who are too busy to read the whole document.
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...=rep1&type=pdf
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...=rep1&type=pdf
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Well, as an ex Cadet I have read this thread with dismay, today my wife and I went to Smith Falls Airport {CYSH} to finish getting our very old "toy" {DH 87B Hornet Moth} ready for this years Air Show and Fly In events. The first thing we saw as we drove into the airport was a yellow Bird Dog towing a yellow 233 glider into the air, yes over here the Air Cadets have not yet been destroyed by idiots as in the UK, so send the kids over here, we could use some young blood in our ageing population!
Dont rub it in Clunk
Hey Clunk erase off; its bad enough over here without being reminded of it.
We have no gliders 'yet', we would not be allowed to use the Bird dog,and as for air shows well a large number are now binned due after effects of Shoreham.
Good news is Kenley will survive as a ATC Gliding operation which of course will please us both.
Rather send some of the 'idiots' over to loose somewhere well away from decision making.
We have no gliders 'yet', we would not be allowed to use the Bird dog,and as for air shows well a large number are now binned due after effects of Shoreham.
Good news is Kenley will survive as a ATC Gliding operation which of course will please us both.
Rather send some of the 'idiots' over to loose somewhere well away from decision making.
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Sorry Pobjoy, didn't mean to rub it in, but looking at the demographics of our population we could use a whole swag of younger folks, and those with a cadet background are the type of younger set we need. As for sending over the twits who have created this mess for you, yup we have lots of places with names beginning with "Fort" and "Post" we could ship them to, but I doubt the locals would make them very welcome! Of topic a bit, but any progress on the fire damaged officers mess at Kenley,? We have a WW2 vet who was based there with the RCAF, he is rather annoyed by the news of the fire damage.
Kenley
Clunk The 'idiots' shipped over(one way ticket) can be made to 'chip out' on hard rock 1000 times 'I am so sorry to have destroyed the UK Air Cadet Gliding force' Do not give them any food and gloves and let them deal with the Bears.
Kenley will live on and is potentially one of the most secure ATC bases as the MOD do not own it and the airfield can not be developed.The Mess is another matter and although listed (That system has no sharp teeth). Most of 11 groups Battle of Britain pilots will have passed through the place at some time,and of course the Canadian Wing was there. L19 Bird dog makes a great tow plane and are those 'Gliders' still available from the States.
The 'Idiots' are also trying to suggest that the PTT system will be an improvement on the traditional 'Hands on' basic Gliding training.You are correct they are Idiots and should be ashamed of themselves;do not give them any boots either.
Kenley will live on and is potentially one of the most secure ATC bases as the MOD do not own it and the airfield can not be developed.The Mess is another matter and although listed (That system has no sharp teeth). Most of 11 groups Battle of Britain pilots will have passed through the place at some time,and of course the Canadian Wing was there. L19 Bird dog makes a great tow plane and are those 'Gliders' still available from the States.
The 'Idiots' are also trying to suggest that the PTT system will be an improvement on the traditional 'Hands on' basic Gliding training.You are correct they are Idiots and should be ashamed of themselves;do not give them any boots either.
Checking the Air Cadets website today I see that not only do they get to fly in a Grob Tutor as well as gliding but they may get a chance to fly in a VC10 or a Tristar!
Air Cadets Website
MMITCH I suspect the website breaches the code of the advertising standards agency it is so misleading and devoid of facts.
Here is a snap of some of the content.
Join the ATC as a civilian gliding instructor; you will receive full training and if you attend your VGS regularly you could win your instructors wings in 12-18 months !!! (Wow thats a really experienced instructor)
Just about sums up the way that one half of the organisation does not have a clue about how the other half is running (or not running) after all there has been NO GLIDING for 3 seasons. In fact the whole system is so 'spin happy' the truth has been lost on the way and no one seems to have noticed.
Here is a snap of some of the content.
Join the ATC as a civilian gliding instructor; you will receive full training and if you attend your VGS regularly you could win your instructors wings in 12-18 months !!! (Wow thats a really experienced instructor)
Just about sums up the way that one half of the organisation does not have a clue about how the other half is running (or not running) after all there has been NO GLIDING for 3 seasons. In fact the whole system is so 'spin happy' the truth has been lost on the way and no one seems to have noticed.
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While perusing Skylaunch’s website last night, it occurred to me that 2FTS could really do with ordering some of their cable retrieve winches.
Skylaunch Cable Retrieve Winch
While the old MVP winches had 6 cables each, the new Skylaunch EVO winches only have 2 cables each, meaning more retrievals will be needed. This will be compounded by the fact that the future VGSs will be larger, meaning more launches, and thus even more retrievals.
In addition, assuming that the 25 new Skylaunch winches will be divided up between the 11 future VGSs, resulting in 2 winches per VGS (with 3 still spare), that will result in double the number of already much increased retrievals.
If however 2FTS were to purchase some Skylaunch cable retrieve winches, then the retrieval time could be vastly reduced, and thus the “sortie generation rate” much increased (in theory allowing for up to 60 launches per hour).
I would think that, at a minimum, 22 retrieve winches would be needed (one for each main winch). I also imagine the retrieve winches would need to be converted to Diesel. And as always, cost would be the limiting factor. But interesting to ponder nonetheless…
Skylaunch Cable Retrieve Winch
While the old MVP winches had 6 cables each, the new Skylaunch EVO winches only have 2 cables each, meaning more retrievals will be needed. This will be compounded by the fact that the future VGSs will be larger, meaning more launches, and thus even more retrievals.
In addition, assuming that the 25 new Skylaunch winches will be divided up between the 11 future VGSs, resulting in 2 winches per VGS (with 3 still spare), that will result in double the number of already much increased retrievals.
If however 2FTS were to purchase some Skylaunch cable retrieve winches, then the retrieval time could be vastly reduced, and thus the “sortie generation rate” much increased (in theory allowing for up to 60 launches per hour).
I would think that, at a minimum, 22 retrieve winches would be needed (one for each main winch). I also imagine the retrieve winches would need to be converted to Diesel. And as always, cost would be the limiting factor. But interesting to ponder nonetheless…
Cable retrieve winches
Whilst in no way wishing to damping the enthusiasm to do away with staff cadet duties i would point out that the limiting factor in launch rate was frequently having gliders 'available' to launch at the caravan end.On a continuous course with machines not landing at the launch point (unlike AE launches) i seem to recall it was not uncommon for cables to be returned well before the aircraft were there to use them. It mattered not; as the Staff Cadets could then get on with sun bathing in their LLoyd Loom (ex Battle of Britain) chairs and or plinking with their air rifles;having despatched someone to the NAFFI for a supply of fruit pies. It was not unknown for messages to be sent to the other end asking if we are 'still flying' !!!. Of course all this is rather academic now as one actually needs a supply of gliders 'on the airfield'; to be launched in the first place.
Last edited by POBJOY; 26th Apr 2016 at 09:10. Reason: More banter