Air Cadets grounded?
Ref P90 above...
I still fail to see how they are going to make Viking VGS 'larger'.
..You can give them as many gadgets as you like to increase the launch rate but the circuit can only take so many conventional gliders at one time.
They cannot simply go away and hold if the circuit gets a bit busy.
Generally, as soon as an aircraft is on base leg then launches stop until the A/C has landed.
Granted, on exceptional days when soaring conditions permit you can launch the fleet and sit around for an hour...but on the other 360 days, circuit bashing is the norm!
I still fail to see how they are going to make Viking VGS 'larger'.
..You can give them as many gadgets as you like to increase the launch rate but the circuit can only take so many conventional gliders at one time.
They cannot simply go away and hold if the circuit gets a bit busy.
Generally, as soon as an aircraft is on base leg then launches stop until the A/C has landed.
Granted, on exceptional days when soaring conditions permit you can launch the fleet and sit around for an hour...but on the other 360 days, circuit bashing is the norm!
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HP90
Retrieve winches would not suit ACO Operations.
Go to the Long Mynd and watch one at work. They are terrific for that sort of Operation but for the ACO setup - no way, due to the amount of aircraft on the ground at any one time (and associated staff standing by them debriefing etc.........), and no way you would operate 2 on the same field............1 retrieve cable screw up and you would have the mother of all birds nests to sort out............
I think H&S would stop retrieve winches on an ACO operation before it even started. For the safety of the students I for one would prefer it that way.
Arc
Retrieve winches would not suit ACO Operations.
Go to the Long Mynd and watch one at work. They are terrific for that sort of Operation but for the ACO setup - no way, due to the amount of aircraft on the ground at any one time (and associated staff standing by them debriefing etc.........), and no way you would operate 2 on the same field............1 retrieve cable screw up and you would have the mother of all birds nests to sort out............
I think H&S would stop retrieve winches on an ACO operation before it even started. For the safety of the students I for one would prefer it that way.
Arc
Cable retrieve winches
622 & ARC All valid points and very 'limiting' for a problem that does not exist.
In fact it is as limiting as the capacity for the organisation to organise anything that is seen as 'sensible'. Although some new winches will eventually be useful the lack of aircraft to fly is the largest limiting factor in everything;coupled with
the continued presence of a nest of half wits who masquerade as the management. What does it take for SOMEONE remotely in the system somewhere to realise WHY numbers fall and why they can not be encouraged to stay. More AEF is not the answer as that NEVER produced the same attraction of actually learning to fly a glider whilst you were young. As the BGA now sends solo's at 14 the ATC should have a serious rethink on what will encourage Cadets to join AND STAY. It seems ridiculous that we have to even have a conversation about it. My God; we had an ORGANISATION that worked well until it was Screwed up by the PAID staff in charge,and it is not too late to rescue the situation before ALL the experience has departed.However it needs change and competent leadership;something the ATC better get their head around before there is no organisation left, and no staff capable to run it.
In fact it is as limiting as the capacity for the organisation to organise anything that is seen as 'sensible'. Although some new winches will eventually be useful the lack of aircraft to fly is the largest limiting factor in everything;coupled with
the continued presence of a nest of half wits who masquerade as the management. What does it take for SOMEONE remotely in the system somewhere to realise WHY numbers fall and why they can not be encouraged to stay. More AEF is not the answer as that NEVER produced the same attraction of actually learning to fly a glider whilst you were young. As the BGA now sends solo's at 14 the ATC should have a serious rethink on what will encourage Cadets to join AND STAY. It seems ridiculous that we have to even have a conversation about it. My God; we had an ORGANISATION that worked well until it was Screwed up by the PAID staff in charge,and it is not too late to rescue the situation before ALL the experience has departed.However it needs change and competent leadership;something the ATC better get their head around before there is no organisation left, and no staff capable to run it.
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Some sad news from France, I hope they can get her repaired
Picture credit and more information / pictures
Slingsby T.21 Blown Away
Picture credit and more information / pictures
Slingsby T.21 Blown Away
It was not unknown for messages to be sent to the other end asking if we are 'still flying' !!!
Operations with a retrieve winch need only one winch and one cable. As Pobjoy says, the bottleneck in the launch rate will be determined other factors. I wouldn't argue against each VGS having a second main and retrieve winch in case one goes unservicable though.
I hope the people who get the French T21 down plan it so no further damage results. Fingers crossed it will be back in the air (manned this time) in the near future.
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Thanks all for the feedback re. cable retrieve winches.
I was just thinking about ways to reduce the increased amount of retrievals required with the new 2-drum winches versus the old 6-drum winches (which will take more time, and require more personnel).
If 73 Vikings are recovered and split between the 11 VGSs, then each VGS will have 6-7 airframes each. With this in mind, in hindsight it may have been better for 2FTS to order 11 Skylaunch SkyDrive 6-drum winches, as opposed to 25 2-drum winches. It makes little sense to upscale the size of the VGSs, but downscale the winch frequency rate, but we are where we are now - I guess we'll just have to accept more retrievals in future.
Skydrive 4 or 6 Drum Winch
I was just thinking about ways to reduce the increased amount of retrievals required with the new 2-drum winches versus the old 6-drum winches (which will take more time, and require more personnel).
If 73 Vikings are recovered and split between the 11 VGSs, then each VGS will have 6-7 airframes each. With this in mind, in hindsight it may have been better for 2FTS to order 11 Skylaunch SkyDrive 6-drum winches, as opposed to 25 2-drum winches. It makes little sense to upscale the size of the VGSs, but downscale the winch frequency rate, but we are where we are now - I guess we'll just have to accept more retrievals in future.
Skydrive 4 or 6 Drum Winch
Last edited by HP90; 26th Apr 2016 at 22:58.
T21
Looking at the sky it looks like a mini squall lifted her up.
However as she was 'caught' in a convenient large bush and not 'thumped' over onto her back the home of the Jodels will see her back very soon.
As with most accident recovery it is the care of recovery that makes a huge difference.The French will sort that and she could make the Air Cadet 75 before our own fleet. Shame about the colour scheme; the original siver and yellow from training command looked much better.
HP 90 How eye watering expensive are those new 6 drum options !!
However as she was 'caught' in a convenient large bush and not 'thumped' over onto her back the home of the Jodels will see her back very soon.
As with most accident recovery it is the care of recovery that makes a huge difference.The French will sort that and she could make the Air Cadet 75 before our own fleet. Shame about the colour scheme; the original siver and yellow from training command looked much better.
HP 90 How eye watering expensive are those new 6 drum options !!
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HP 90 How eye watering expensive are those new 6 drum options !!
2-drum winch = £84,492 each (inc. VAT @ 20%)
x25 = £2,112,300
6-drum winch = £182,265.60 each (inc. VAT @ 20%)
x11 = £2,004,921.60
Actually would be £107,378.40 cheaper!!!
-----
Edit:
Given those figures, I really don't understand why 2FTS chose the 2-drum option in the first place.
At the time the order was placed, there were 8 conventional glider VGSs, so I presume the plan must have been to give x3 2-drum winches to each VGS (making for 24 in total), thus giving a 6-cable capacity to each VGS.
But x8 6-drum winches could've been purchased for £634,175 less than x25 2-drum winches. Perhaps this is an example of some bean counter looking at unit costs, seeing that the 2-drum winches were almost £100,000 cheaper than the 6-drum winches, and assuming there would be big cost savings as a result? Baffling.
Last edited by HP90; 27th Apr 2016 at 00:33.
I would imagine the MOD got some sort of bulk purchase price for the winches.
It's also probably a logistics thing...easier to move a 2 drum winch about (back of a Landrover?) especially for servicing / re siting etc than a 6 drum thing.
Possible thinking is also that multiple 2 drum winches is better than 1 x 6 drum winch if you have an engine problem on one winch...it doesn't ground you!
It's also probably a logistics thing...easier to move a 2 drum winch about (back of a Landrover?) especially for servicing / re siting etc than a 6 drum thing.
Possible thinking is also that multiple 2 drum winches is better than 1 x 6 drum winch if you have an engine problem on one winch...it doesn't ground you!
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It'll also be easier to dispose of 2 drum winches in a year or so when they're considered surplus to requirements.
And talking of surplus to requirements, could we run a lottery for how long it'll be before a number of Viking airframes are offered for disposal? They'll have been fully refurbished and with all paperwork up to date and they'll be available for a snip (i.e. much less than it's cost to bring them up to scratch).
On that subject, anyone care to hazard a guess at the true cost of bringing a Viking back in to service? I'm sure I read somewhere that it's around one man month per glider for inspection and paperwork labour but what about the true cost of all the other overheads (if it was a commercial business) from the head of 2FTS down?
7700
And talking of surplus to requirements, could we run a lottery for how long it'll be before a number of Viking airframes are offered for disposal? They'll have been fully refurbished and with all paperwork up to date and they'll be available for a snip (i.e. much less than it's cost to bring them up to scratch).
On that subject, anyone care to hazard a guess at the true cost of bringing a Viking back in to service? I'm sure I read somewhere that it's around one man month per glider for inspection and paperwork labour but what about the true cost of all the other overheads (if it was a commercial business) from the head of 2FTS down?
7700
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I would imagine the MOD got some sort of bulk purchase price for the winches.
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HP 90
We used to do OK with twin drum winches before. Most schools had 2 (1 line schools), some larger schools had 3 (2 line schools). Or kept as a spare. Often the parent unit had a 'ready use' spare which could be brought down at a couple of days notice or swapped out if a major service was required away from the school. The winches were towed on the road by a standard Bedford 4 tonner. Later big MVG winches required a low loader to move on the road and there were no local spares at parent units - so a degree of flexibility was lost.
We used 1 tow out vehicle per winch/pair of cables and this prevented them getting 'crossed' (tangled). Later we used a single vehicle and a spreader bar.
In some respects its better to have a pair of winches - as people have said you don't stop operating if you have an engine problem. Also towing single pairs of cables is easier on the MT and stops the ground getting badly churned up in front of the winch and at the launch point.
Twin drum winches are much lighter - they don't bog down on grass sites where there are no hardstands or peri-tracks - and if they do, you can often do a local recovery - the MVG usually needed a full recovery unit from the parent unit or the white fleet supplier as they weighed so much..........
Some days you could operate a quick and easy operation if you just towed out a single winch and pair of cables..............
You points on costs are however, very valid
Arc
We used to do OK with twin drum winches before. Most schools had 2 (1 line schools), some larger schools had 3 (2 line schools). Or kept as a spare. Often the parent unit had a 'ready use' spare which could be brought down at a couple of days notice or swapped out if a major service was required away from the school. The winches were towed on the road by a standard Bedford 4 tonner. Later big MVG winches required a low loader to move on the road and there were no local spares at parent units - so a degree of flexibility was lost.
We used 1 tow out vehicle per winch/pair of cables and this prevented them getting 'crossed' (tangled). Later we used a single vehicle and a spreader bar.
In some respects its better to have a pair of winches - as people have said you don't stop operating if you have an engine problem. Also towing single pairs of cables is easier on the MT and stops the ground getting badly churned up in front of the winch and at the launch point.
Twin drum winches are much lighter - they don't bog down on grass sites where there are no hardstands or peri-tracks - and if they do, you can often do a local recovery - the MVG usually needed a full recovery unit from the parent unit or the white fleet supplier as they weighed so much..........
Some days you could operate a quick and easy operation if you just towed out a single winch and pair of cables..............
You points on costs are however, very valid
Arc
It is all very jolly having a pop at "procurement", which is sometimes deserved but not as often as you think, but one should ask whose job it is to specify and quantify what and how many of a given item is required. And who makes materiel and financial provision for the upkeep of airworthiness data and, ultimately, the Safety Case. And whose terms of reference, uniquely, grant authority to overrule on all these issues using "engineering judgement". For any given item in the inventory this is the same identifiable individual. In this case, an RAF post, and he/she doesn't work in "procurement" (because this is something you do before being promoted into procurement). And I wouldn't be surprised if he isn't an engineer, which is the root of many problems in this domain (noting that the current problem on gliding is precisely the same as forced the scrapping of MRA4).
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"noting that the current problem on gliding is precisely the same as forced the scrapping of MRA4"
Hence my comments regarding disposal in the not too distant future rather than return to service.
7700
Hence my comments regarding disposal in the not too distant future rather than return to service.
7700
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Interesting ...
https://mobile.twitter.com/OC6AEF/st...86075028127744
Vigilant to Tutor VGS Conversion training underway ?
https://mobile.twitter.com/OC6AEF/st...86075028127744
Wg Cdr Matt Lane from 637 VGS signing in after 1st Tutor solo at RAF Benson ...
