Clink-clank...another medal
We all fought the fight we were given. Careers are not a personal choice. You take the posting and do your best. Some tours bring glory, some don't, but all are Service in the truest sense.
I for one, enjoyed RAFG. We trained hard, and played hard but never fought. If we had, we'd have given as much and, perhaps, inevitably, more than some of those who serve today. Some of my friends who arrived at RAF Wildenrath never left.
I supported current ops for years and still spend every day watching how they are progressing but don't take away the victory that was the Cold War and, ironically, through politics not conflict.
I totally agree. As an attached civilian with a CC Commission in case WW III broke out, Guetersloh and JHQ [total 13 years] were real enough ...... deterrence worked, and we were part of it. I just went where I was sent.
I for one, enjoyed RAFG. We trained hard, and played hard but never fought. If we had, we'd have given as much and, perhaps, inevitably, more than some of those who serve today. Some of my friends who arrived at RAF Wildenrath never left.
I supported current ops for years and still spend every day watching how they are progressing but don't take away the victory that was the Cold War and, ironically, through politics not conflict.
I totally agree. As an attached civilian with a CC Commission in case WW III broke out, Guetersloh and JHQ [total 13 years] were real enough ...... deterrence worked, and we were part of it. I just went where I was sent.
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I find it quite sad that sundry posters in this thread display such a clearly disrespectful attitude towards those who served in previous and, generally, more peaceful times.
If the measure of a man's/woman's service to their country is merely to be ascertained by a collection of medals, many of which were awarded for being simply 'in country', then we have reached a low point indeed.
A couple of years ago, I had an opportunity to chat with General David Petraeus at a US Military Cemetery. If you want to see medals, see an image of him in uniform - perhaps we should take the American route on this subject in order to pacify some PPRune scribes here?
Remember, that Old Boy standing proudly at the village War Memorial on a cold November Sunday morn may, one day, be you. Yes, he may even exude a faint aroma of "wee" if you are downwind of him; but please do not trample on his pride here - he, like you, was ready to do what was required of him & more in the defence of the Realm.
I myself can boast no worthwhile medals, save one awarded by a PMC computer for turning up regularly during a 24yr 'Cold War' career. Though I respect & admire those who have put themselves in harm's way during the Bush/Blair Wars, I remain quietly proud of my service, in the knowledge that I was ready to Stand To & do my duty, and more.
I remember here also those who died 'in service' in peacetime, in the air and on the ground. Medals rarely graced their chests; they have no need of them now.
Finally, I am saddened to hear serving Officers discussing their numerical medal tally here; this is most distasteful and ungentlemanly, Old Boy.
HB
If the measure of a man's/woman's service to their country is merely to be ascertained by a collection of medals, many of which were awarded for being simply 'in country', then we have reached a low point indeed.
A couple of years ago, I had an opportunity to chat with General David Petraeus at a US Military Cemetery. If you want to see medals, see an image of him in uniform - perhaps we should take the American route on this subject in order to pacify some PPRune scribes here?
Remember, that Old Boy standing proudly at the village War Memorial on a cold November Sunday morn may, one day, be you. Yes, he may even exude a faint aroma of "wee" if you are downwind of him; but please do not trample on his pride here - he, like you, was ready to do what was required of him & more in the defence of the Realm.
I myself can boast no worthwhile medals, save one awarded by a PMC computer for turning up regularly during a 24yr 'Cold War' career. Though I respect & admire those who have put themselves in harm's way during the Bush/Blair Wars, I remain quietly proud of my service, in the knowledge that I was ready to Stand To & do my duty, and more.
I remember here also those who died 'in service' in peacetime, in the air and on the ground. Medals rarely graced their chests; they have no need of them now.
Finally, I am saddened to hear serving Officers discussing their numerical medal tally here; this is most distasteful and ungentlemanly, Old Boy.
HB
I once said to one guy who introduced himself with a bunch of airs and graces as AVM XYZ Retd, get over it mate, you are a Mister now.
Last edited by BEagle; 18th Apr 2012 at 08:51.
I had a militaria shop up to 3 years ago, and this sort of medal gave me a steady addition to my normal turnover. I can assure the OP that there is an unending supply of men (and women) of a certain age who are quite happy to purchase a row of these unofficial medals to supplement their meagre (or non-existent) complement of "real" medals. I've never been tempted to wear one myself, even though my single GSM is starting to look a bit lonely on Remembrance Sunday, especially alongside my serving son who with the QDJM now has seven.
Thread Starter
Langley, HB et al,
I hope that I have not implied that those who have served previously are 'lesser mortals'; however the geo-political environment of 25 years ago is completely different from the global threats and challenges malarky of the last decade.
I joined up during the Cold War and very, very few people had medals, and if they did it was a major talking point. Now, most serving personnel have campaign medals as well as QGJ & QDJMs, and in this respect I am fairly typical. If current SP don't have medals, their contemporaries will naturally wonder why. It may be due to Branch/trade/qualification issues, it may be on a personal restriction on deployment (medical, sy, welfare...) or it could be down to a degree of time/location/luck. Unfotunately in the case of some SP I know, it is due to a degree of cunning, risk aversion and an ability to play the system. But operational experience does count as AFG is still our 'maximum effort' - thus, having served on ISAF I was able to comment on an ISAF-related matter within my competencies in a meeting earlier this morning with some partner nations who are participating. If I hadn't been there, I couldn't have commented.
However, campaign medals are sui generis, ie of that time and place. Once the majority of our forces are back from the 'Stan, very, very rapidly the number of campaign medals awarded will plummet. Given that the average length of service of a Soldier is less than 8 years, by the end of this decade a majority of young soldiers (and the same for airmen and marines) won't have served in a desert location (Syria/Iran/Sudan/Nigeria...notwithstanding!) and therefore won't have any medals.
On a related issue, I had been trying to update the RAF List for years - trying to get post-nominals correct (university qualifications and professional memberships) I eventually realised that this had to be done via JPA. I went to the clerks in MB and the LCpl dutifully entered the correct details. I added (as a joke) 'oh, and DSO, DFC and bar!', which he dutifully typed in without hesitation. 8 Back-spaces amended the record, again without hesitation. Damn! Pity I'm an honest chap!
I hope that I have not implied that those who have served previously are 'lesser mortals'; however the geo-political environment of 25 years ago is completely different from the global threats and challenges malarky of the last decade.
I joined up during the Cold War and very, very few people had medals, and if they did it was a major talking point. Now, most serving personnel have campaign medals as well as QGJ & QDJMs, and in this respect I am fairly typical. If current SP don't have medals, their contemporaries will naturally wonder why. It may be due to Branch/trade/qualification issues, it may be on a personal restriction on deployment (medical, sy, welfare...) or it could be down to a degree of time/location/luck. Unfotunately in the case of some SP I know, it is due to a degree of cunning, risk aversion and an ability to play the system. But operational experience does count as AFG is still our 'maximum effort' - thus, having served on ISAF I was able to comment on an ISAF-related matter within my competencies in a meeting earlier this morning with some partner nations who are participating. If I hadn't been there, I couldn't have commented.
However, campaign medals are sui generis, ie of that time and place. Once the majority of our forces are back from the 'Stan, very, very rapidly the number of campaign medals awarded will plummet. Given that the average length of service of a Soldier is less than 8 years, by the end of this decade a majority of young soldiers (and the same for airmen and marines) won't have served in a desert location (Syria/Iran/Sudan/Nigeria...notwithstanding!) and therefore won't have any medals.
On a related issue, I had been trying to update the RAF List for years - trying to get post-nominals correct (university qualifications and professional memberships) I eventually realised that this had to be done via JPA. I went to the clerks in MB and the LCpl dutifully entered the correct details. I added (as a joke) 'oh, and DSO, DFC and bar!', which he dutifully typed in without hesitation. 8 Back-spaces amended the record, again without hesitation. Damn! Pity I'm an honest chap!
Last edited by Whenurhappy; 18th Apr 2012 at 09:50.
Halton brat.
What a splendid summing-up.
The smug and dismissive attitude towards older veterans and survivors of Cold War flying is distasteful.
Whenurhappy
I can only speak reference Cold War Mud-Moving but I suggest you compare accident and death rates in the 70s and 80s with what has gone on in the Fast Jet world since GW1. Low Level training in the prevailing crummy weather (Yes, we flew regularly in weather below Low Flying limits), was moderately dangerous, with an associated butcher's bill. There was a lot of flying going on.
You do a disservice to all of my comrades who died carrying out their duty during that period, and yes - not one of them wore a medal.
What a splendid summing-up.
The smug and dismissive attitude towards older veterans and survivors of Cold War flying is distasteful.
Whenurhappy
I can only speak reference Cold War Mud-Moving but I suggest you compare accident and death rates in the 70s and 80s with what has gone on in the Fast Jet world since GW1. Low Level training in the prevailing crummy weather (Yes, we flew regularly in weather below Low Flying limits), was moderately dangerous, with an associated butcher's bill. There was a lot of flying going on.
You do a disservice to all of my comrades who died carrying out their duty during that period, and yes - not one of them wore a medal.
There were no problems about medals from those of WW2 vintage. In about 1964 a new station commander arrived at RAF Honington; then home to 55, 57 and 90 Squadron. The messes and crew rooms, both air and ground, were carpeted with blokes with chestfulls of gongs mostly earned with Bomber Command. The Group Captain had none, he had joined after the war. Nobody worried and he was a first class station commander.
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I admit to being one of those (sad) few who were tempted and bought the said "Cold War Medal".
Having served my 12 years and my only gong being a NI GSM I did feel guilty for serving mostly 2nd line and missing out on OPs.
However, honestly I am ashamed of it....it sits in the wardrobe and I wouldnt show it to anyone.
As my grandfather said before he died " At least you served and wanted to be deployed...thats a lot more than a lot did, don't be ashamed"
Having served my 12 years and my only gong being a NI GSM I did feel guilty for serving mostly 2nd line and missing out on OPs.
However, honestly I am ashamed of it....it sits in the wardrobe and I wouldnt show it to anyone.
As my grandfather said before he died " At least you served and wanted to be deployed...thats a lot more than a lot did, don't be ashamed"
Since you have some medals you are able to afford the luxury of indifference towards them. Those of us without any can only wonder!
I certainly didn't intend to portray a notion of indifference. If I had be aiming for that, I wouldn't have suggested the re-introduction of something along the lines of the Defence Medal, which I would intend to provide some form of medallic recognition to anyone who had provided productive service i.e had passed out from professional training and possibly completed their first tour.
FWIW, I think medals are an important part of the moral component of fighting; they serve as an outward symbol of what you have achieved (up to a point) or done as well as, I would hope, providing something for the junior personnel coming through the system to look up to for inspiration.
My own personal view is that the UK has not quite got the medal issue right. I wouldn't want to look like some third world dictator, but equally, I think the notion of risk and rigour as the sole criteria has been taken to the extreme. May be it is a cost issue, may be one of political embarrassment that awarding a medal is indicative of UK personnel ending up in some pretty nasty places, thus demonstrating the politicians' collective failure once again, I don't know. But I currently think our medals policy is too restrictive. If I had my way, I would like to see
A Defence Medal
The introduction of some form of Ops Support Medal (similar to the concept the US had in hte post 9-11 era) whereby if you are on a named op but not in country and so won't get the campaign medal, you would be awarded this one instead. That would capture many individuals deployed to places like the CAOC, Falklands etc who arguably have a role to play in enabling the smooth running of ops but aren't in harms way, thus preserving the credibility of the official campaign medal.
Neither am I convinced by the rules surrounding 'double medalling' which strike me as being a blunt instrument created by some desk polishing jotter blotter who doesn't even have a passport let alone go on ops. Frankly, I think HM has more things to worry about than being gravely offended because someone who has served multiple tours in AFG has the audacity to want to wear a NATO medal as well as the OSM.
Just my tuppence worth to hopefully set the record straight. Unfortunately, I think I am probably in the minority in those ideas and in the current climate, there is likely to be no interest.
Difficult.
What follows is an outsider's view but not, I hope, worthless.
If you have many medals, and you like that, good.
If you have many medals and sling them in the drawer like my father did, good.
If you have few or none, and don't care, good.
If you have few or none and do care, not good.
The attitude of HMG and, for all I know, Her Gracious Majesty, is not new, and generation after generation has faced a lack of outward recognition while others have strutted and swanned around. The Gallipoli star is one example of a binned medal. Bomber Command is a more recent case. The inequitable issues of ration gongs such as Jubilee medals is yet another.
I have in front of me a strange document, addressed to Group Captain Langley RAFVR, with a personal number, from Gloucester. It went with my last overseas post, and in previous incarnations I was almost a Flt Lt and Sqn Ldr. It is without a date, and was held on file for issue if the balloon went up. A complete uniform was held in store, fitted once, checked annually. I did a full NBC course every year, went on every 1BR Corps Exercise, and a fair number of Harrier and other jollies in the field. I think I helped to win the Cold War.
No medal.
Apart from being buggered about with guard duties, SDO and the like, my existence was similar to, and parallel to, that of many a non-flying RAF officer at the time .......... even the 7/24 aspect was written in, and sometimes enforced. Paid less than a Group Captain, a lot less.
Would I like a medal? Yes.
Do I think I should have one? No.
Was it a worthwhile use of a 41 year career? Yes, undoubtedly.
I even got a few forecasts right, and no crew that I ever briefed was lost. Better than a medal.
What follows is an outsider's view but not, I hope, worthless.
If you have many medals, and you like that, good.
If you have many medals and sling them in the drawer like my father did, good.
If you have few or none, and don't care, good.
If you have few or none and do care, not good.
The attitude of HMG and, for all I know, Her Gracious Majesty, is not new, and generation after generation has faced a lack of outward recognition while others have strutted and swanned around. The Gallipoli star is one example of a binned medal. Bomber Command is a more recent case. The inequitable issues of ration gongs such as Jubilee medals is yet another.
I have in front of me a strange document, addressed to Group Captain Langley RAFVR, with a personal number, from Gloucester. It went with my last overseas post, and in previous incarnations I was almost a Flt Lt and Sqn Ldr. It is without a date, and was held on file for issue if the balloon went up. A complete uniform was held in store, fitted once, checked annually. I did a full NBC course every year, went on every 1BR Corps Exercise, and a fair number of Harrier and other jollies in the field. I think I helped to win the Cold War.
No medal.
Apart from being buggered about with guard duties, SDO and the like, my existence was similar to, and parallel to, that of many a non-flying RAF officer at the time .......... even the 7/24 aspect was written in, and sometimes enforced. Paid less than a Group Captain, a lot less.
Would I like a medal? Yes.
Do I think I should have one? No.
Was it a worthwhile use of a 41 year career? Yes, undoubtedly.
I even got a few forecasts right, and no crew that I ever briefed was lost. Better than a medal.
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That's why the Veteran's badge was introduced - to show you have served in the Armed Forces. No matter where, when, what medals you had - to show you had served.
Plus it was lot cheaper than issuing a medal
Plus it was lot cheaper than issuing a medal
Nutloose, your AVM story reminded me of a certain knighted admiral who retired to a Cornish village. He put it about that he'd like to be addressed either as "admiral" or "Sir John". He was therefore somewhat taken aback when he walked into the pub one day and the character who habitually propped the bar up greeted him with a cheery "Hello sailor"!
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I have a few, none of the "Top Trumps" variety but the standard campaign ones but I tell you I would trade the lot to have been good enough to have spent 12.5 years doing what you do.
Medal or no medal you are part of a select band of people who have achieved something most of us can only ever dream about
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I should imagine the retired Air Vice Marshall thought it rather refreshing to not have yet another sniveling bum tonguing sycophant stood in front of him, carry on Sir
(Replacement keyboard and new coffee required!)
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Beagle, he walked into my hangar without a by your leave! spotted some screws on a bench, walked straight over to them ignoring me and said Ahh just what I need, can I take some, I asked who he was, got the AVM Retd Drivel, I then told him he was actually a Mr and would he mind fecking orrf..
You don't see Tony BLiar calling himself Pm Rtd do you and I cannot see why some ex RAF officer should think it is apt either, it's a total load of ballcocks.
If he had come in asked if there was any chance of scrounging a couple of screws he might of got somewhere, instead of getting me pointing out his actual rank these days and giving him some directional advice.
You don't see Tony BLiar calling himself Pm Rtd do you and I cannot see why some ex RAF officer should think it is apt either, it's a total load of ballcocks.
If he had come in asked if there was any chance of scrounging a couple of screws he might of got somewhere, instead of getting me pointing out his actual rank these days and giving him some directional advice.
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I met heaps of people when I was very young who were Major this,
Colonel this, the odd Captain from the war days and it seemed
to be the norm for those of field rank and above.
So what is the consensus now regarding using your rank
in civvy street ?
Colonel this, the odd Captain from the war days and it seemed
to be the norm for those of field rank and above.
So what is the consensus now regarding using your rank
in civvy street ?
So what is the consensus now regarding using your rank
in civvy street ?
in civvy street ?
"When I meet an ex Sqn Ldr whose first name I don't know, I call him sport until I find out"
