Clink-clank...another medal
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I believe in the Army it was or is Major and is the first of the "Field" ranks which I think I mentioned before. I'll leave the other services to those who served in them.
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nutloose - I find a photo taped to the door of the toolbox showing a crushed hand with an attached caption of "This is what happens when you use tools from here" ususally stops it.
I have had to use a swift WTFDYTYAD when I caught someone inside my shiny stack......
I have had to use a swift WTFDYTYAD when I caught someone inside my shiny stack......
One edition of 'Soldier' magazine from GW1 had a photo of a chef swinging a Schermuly container full of his dhobi around, with the letters 'KYTFHO' on the side.
Letters to the Editor followed, and it was only after several months that it was correctly de-cyphered.
Letters to the Editor followed, and it was only after several months that it was correctly de-cyphered.
NutLoose, that certainly puts your reaction rather more into context. Someone helping themselves to the property of others in the way you describe certainly deserves to be challenged very firmly. No matter who they might be.
Doubtless those were 'aircraft spec.' fatseners and probably accountable?
Did he ever explain why he wanted them?
Tool control! I took my car to the local M-B dealer for a routine service. When I collected it, on the way home I noticed a rattle. Under the bonnet I found a 10" screwdriver left in the engine bay - it could have shorted the battery, fallen into the poly V-belt or punctured any one of 4 cooling radiators..... I had words with the dealer about tool control; it seems that there is no system of tool tags, shadow boards or the like at such places.
Doubtless those were 'aircraft spec.' fatseners and probably accountable?
Did he ever explain why he wanted them?
Tool control! I took my car to the local M-B dealer for a routine service. When I collected it, on the way home I noticed a rattle. Under the bonnet I found a 10" screwdriver left in the engine bay - it could have shorted the battery, fallen into the poly V-belt or punctured any one of 4 cooling radiators..... I had words with the dealer about tool control; it seems that there is no system of tool tags, shadow boards or the like at such places.
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BEagle, this is one reason one gets upset,
Read page 5, this young lads ( a trainee ) screwdriver was found to have caused the pilots death, Though DNA testing found the pilot had come into contact with it, or it had been borrowed without his knowledge, it could have gone the other way and regardless of that this poor lad has to live with this for the rest of his life, even though it appears it may have been the pilot or someone else borrowing his screwdriver with out asking..
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...pdf_024587.pdf
Read page 5, this young lads ( a trainee ) screwdriver was found to have caused the pilots death, Though DNA testing found the pilot had come into contact with it, or it had been borrowed without his knowledge, it could have gone the other way and regardless of that this poor lad has to live with this for the rest of his life, even though it appears it may have been the pilot or someone else borrowing his screwdriver with out asking..
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...pdf_024587.pdf
Last edited by NutLoose; 19th Apr 2012 at 16:55.
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NL, whilst my flyer's head agrees absolutely with your sentiments regarding tool control, I find my lawyer's head shaking at certain of the deductions you make from the AAIB findings of fact - nuff said.
As for rank / titles etc. recently at my daughter's pre-op bedside. all who had been in attendance were a model of polite proffesionalism until..... an utterly arrogant "fellow" pushed aside the curtains and without a by your leave (and without consulting coleagues, or notes where all was recorded) launched into a rather nasty interrogation regarding her asthma inhaler on the bedside.
After taking a deep breath I found that " And you are ?",
was sufficient to deflate the arrogance and obtain a more reasonable conversation with Mr P...l (consultant anaesthetist). I have nothing but regard and respect for the operating surgeon and all in his team, save for the "don't you know who I am" attitude of that man.
As for VSO's, NL clearly caught a bad one, or at least one on a bad day. Happy to report that my experiences have been much more as they should be.
As for rank / titles etc. recently at my daughter's pre-op bedside. all who had been in attendance were a model of polite proffesionalism until..... an utterly arrogant "fellow" pushed aside the curtains and without a by your leave (and without consulting coleagues, or notes where all was recorded) launched into a rather nasty interrogation regarding her asthma inhaler on the bedside.
After taking a deep breath I found that " And you are ?",
was sufficient to deflate the arrogance and obtain a more reasonable conversation with Mr P...l (consultant anaesthetist). I have nothing but regard and respect for the operating surgeon and all in his team, save for the "don't you know who I am" attitude of that man.
As for VSO's, NL clearly caught a bad one, or at least one on a bad day. Happy to report that my experiences have been much more as they should be.
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Just to return to medals, and the wearer being a VSO, an ACM RAF, one Lord Elworthy, a New Zealander, who was CAS RAF, and CDS,UK, and Keeper of Windsor Castle, so he had more medals than you could shake a stick at!
When he retired, he returned to the family pile in Canterbury, NZ, but was sought out one day to address a Brevet Club function in Taupo, and an air force aircraft was laid on for his use.
I was sent to the party by road as "liaison officer". Come time for his return, and I was standing under the wing of his aircraft with the crew because it was raining rather heavily, when this car appears and drives over, and out steps the only Air Chief Marshal I'd ever seen[the rank doesn't exist in the RNZAF] wearing a dazzling array of medals and braids. I immediately did my meet and greet bit, and, as I don't do 'awestruck', suggesting he might like to get aboard out of the rain and I would collect his gear from the boot. "Son" he said, "if you're going to get wet, then we're both getting wet" whereupon he got his own bag out of the boot!
Now he, for those that may not recognise the trait, was a true gentleman!
When he retired, he returned to the family pile in Canterbury, NZ, but was sought out one day to address a Brevet Club function in Taupo, and an air force aircraft was laid on for his use.
I was sent to the party by road as "liaison officer". Come time for his return, and I was standing under the wing of his aircraft with the crew because it was raining rather heavily, when this car appears and drives over, and out steps the only Air Chief Marshal I'd ever seen[the rank doesn't exist in the RNZAF] wearing a dazzling array of medals and braids. I immediately did my meet and greet bit, and, as I don't do 'awestruck', suggesting he might like to get aboard out of the rain and I would collect his gear from the boot. "Son" he said, "if you're going to get wet, then we're both getting wet" whereupon he got his own bag out of the boot!
Now he, for those that may not recognise the trait, was a true gentleman!
NutLoose, yes, you're absolutely correct about 'borrowed' items. Although never involved in maintenance activity myself, because we had an on-squadron engineering flight my colleagues and I learned and respected the protocols and requirements for tool control, even for such seemingly mundane requests as asking to borrow a screwdriver to tighten up some loose screws holding up the perspex around the flying programme board.
To continue the drift -
I fully support Nutloose's action to prevent petty pilfering in his business/hangar and his fears about the poor lad's Screwdriver. We all have our favourite worries and his is FOD, it seems.
In support of his control fears and most others' fears of civil maintenance practices - I would like to explain that, while it may seem 'a bit unsafe' not having tool controls "like the military do", the emphasis we civvies have is to make sure the aircraft is FOD-free at the end of any work - rather than just accounting for tools used within the local environment.
The dangerous bit is allowing FOD (of any sort) to stay on the aircraft - and that is not really prevented by building complicated methods of checking tools.
NL has stated the best tool control system - your willingness to buy expensive replacements!
I fully support Nutloose's action to prevent petty pilfering in his business/hangar and his fears about the poor lad's Screwdriver. We all have our favourite worries and his is FOD, it seems.
In support of his control fears and most others' fears of civil maintenance practices - I would like to explain that, while it may seem 'a bit unsafe' not having tool controls "like the military do", the emphasis we civvies have is to make sure the aircraft is FOD-free at the end of any work - rather than just accounting for tools used within the local environment.
The dangerous bit is allowing FOD (of any sort) to stay on the aircraft - and that is not really prevented by building complicated methods of checking tools.
NL has stated the best tool control system - your willingness to buy expensive replacements!
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On the medal front, one would imagine winning something like a VC would ensure ones future guaranteed position on any and every Station parade..
Just to return to medals, and the wearer being a VSO, an ACM RAF, one Lord Elworthy, a New Zealander, who was CAS RAF, and CDS,UK, and Keeper of Windsor Castle, so he had more medals than you could shake a stick at!
.... and one higher rank too, Samuel, that sadly is no longer awarded, either in the UK or Godzone - Marshal of the Royal Air Force.
Jack
.... and one higher rank too, Samuel, that sadly is no longer awarded, either in the UK or Godzone - Marshal of the Royal Air Force.
Jack
Thread Starter
Slightly back to the thread.
exMudmover, et al. I refer you to my response to your criticisms in Post No 45. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.
Most people serving today with a few years of service with a have a rack of medals and thus on the rare occasions that SP are seen in Service Dress on Mess Kit a visual biography of their service career can be downloaded in a second or two. The additional point I made was that operational serving is an enriching experience for most. This does not denigarate those who have served in earlier times when the war was cold and our role was to defend Western Europe - and medals weren't awarded for that. My comment refers to some who are serving today and have avoided going on operations.
However at risk of offending some, perhaps older, members on PPrune, life on an airfield in the 1980s, waiting for the klaxon to sound is completely different from those who have served on operations in Iraq or Afghanistan over the last 10 years. Mostly you were home to the family on a regular basis and although flying in NWE was (and is) a hazardous affair and unless the Speznaz deployed early or PIRA were particularly active, you weren't subject to regular IDF on your bases and expect that your aircraft will take incoming once outside the peri track. The Cold War training and readiness losses were very high, and morbidly these losses ensured the Peace, and ultimately victory over the USSR. Again, though, I suspect the levels of PTSD then ('LMF'?) compared with the tidal wave that is being generated now is a mute testatment to how intense current operations are.
I agree that there should be some medallic recognition for a period of military service (NZ has chosen 3 years Regular, for example), but my original post was about buying commemorative medals. I'm please to read that at least one PPruner has owned up to buying one!
PS: In this morning's bag I've received the QDJM. Smart it is, too. And free
exMudmover, et al. I refer you to my response to your criticisms in Post No 45. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.
Most people serving today with a few years of service with a have a rack of medals and thus on the rare occasions that SP are seen in Service Dress on Mess Kit a visual biography of their service career can be downloaded in a second or two. The additional point I made was that operational serving is an enriching experience for most. This does not denigarate those who have served in earlier times when the war was cold and our role was to defend Western Europe - and medals weren't awarded for that. My comment refers to some who are serving today and have avoided going on operations.
However at risk of offending some, perhaps older, members on PPrune, life on an airfield in the 1980s, waiting for the klaxon to sound is completely different from those who have served on operations in Iraq or Afghanistan over the last 10 years. Mostly you were home to the family on a regular basis and although flying in NWE was (and is) a hazardous affair and unless the Speznaz deployed early or PIRA were particularly active, you weren't subject to regular IDF on your bases and expect that your aircraft will take incoming once outside the peri track. The Cold War training and readiness losses were very high, and morbidly these losses ensured the Peace, and ultimately victory over the USSR. Again, though, I suspect the levels of PTSD then ('LMF'?) compared with the tidal wave that is being generated now is a mute testatment to how intense current operations are.
I agree that there should be some medallic recognition for a period of military service (NZ has chosen 3 years Regular, for example), but my original post was about buying commemorative medals. I'm please to read that at least one PPruner has owned up to buying one!
PS: In this morning's bag I've received the QDJM. Smart it is, too. And free
I have been helping to organise next Saturday's V Force reunion at Newark Aircraft Museum. Most of the 200 or so attending will come into the category of "cold war warriors", and apart from the odd GSM and AFC there will be few who can claim the chestful of medals rightly adorning the uniforms of their younger RAF successors.
I dont think many of us feel we were badly rewarded for our service - I have made my objection to a Cold War medal clear in the past as being unnecessary and inappropriate - the whole point of a cold war is that it isn't a shooting war, so why the need for medals?
Those who were on duty in October 1962 at the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis, sitting bombed-up and ready to fly to all points east are going to be interviewed by the BBC at Newark for a projected programme on the crisis. Those are guys who very nearly took part in the ultimate shooting war - ironically one for which I suspect no medals would have been awarded!
I dont think many of us feel we were badly rewarded for our service - I have made my objection to a Cold War medal clear in the past as being unnecessary and inappropriate - the whole point of a cold war is that it isn't a shooting war, so why the need for medals?
Those who were on duty in October 1962 at the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis, sitting bombed-up and ready to fly to all points east are going to be interviewed by the BBC at Newark for a projected programme on the crisis. Those are guys who very nearly took part in the ultimate shooting war - ironically one for which I suspect no medals would have been awarded!
Cunning Artificer
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This does not denigarate those who have served in earlier times when the war was cold and our role was to defend Western Europe - and medals weren't awarded for that.
With clasps for his service in:
Malaya, Kenya (Mau-Mau), Cyprus (EOKA), Yemen (Radfan) and Borneo (Confrontation). You couldn't see the ribbon for the clasps when he was (inevitably) on the AOC's parade. So, there were medals for active service in the Cold War years, but just the one size fits all General Service Medal.
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Some years ago at a RAFA dinner, a young lady on my table asked why i had one minature medal with two clasps ( GSM ) but another, younger, person had two separate medals. I replied that the system had changed. Why was the system changed ? Surely one gong with clasps would suffice ? ( but not so impressive to the ladies...)
Whenurhappy
No, you did not make yourself clear in post 45.
Speaking solely about Fast Jet flying, my contention is still that Cold War flying was VERY MUCH more dangerous than current peacetime or operational flying.
Once again I pose the question: How many Fast Jet aircrew have been killed on operations since GW1?
Compare your answer to the scores of aircrew killed during the “peacetime” Cold War flying. This is not about medals, it’s about the risk to your pink body every time you climbed into your aircraft.
One of the reasons Cold War Fast Jet flying was so hazardous was because risks had to be taken to get the job done with some of the crummy equipment we had. For example, how many aircrew today continue on task in peace or war with no HUD or no radio? We were having to do that in the Falklands war and it was SOP in peacetime training. I’m not saying that’s good or bad, it’s just a fact.
As an example, if you had ever observed a Harrier Field site operating under TACEVAL conditions then you might have some idea of what I’m talking about.
No, you did not make yourself clear in post 45.
Speaking solely about Fast Jet flying, my contention is still that Cold War flying was VERY MUCH more dangerous than current peacetime or operational flying.
Once again I pose the question: How many Fast Jet aircrew have been killed on operations since GW1?
Compare your answer to the scores of aircrew killed during the “peacetime” Cold War flying. This is not about medals, it’s about the risk to your pink body every time you climbed into your aircraft.
One of the reasons Cold War Fast Jet flying was so hazardous was because risks had to be taken to get the job done with some of the crummy equipment we had. For example, how many aircrew today continue on task in peace or war with no HUD or no radio? We were having to do that in the Falklands war and it was SOP in peacetime training. I’m not saying that’s good or bad, it’s just a fact.
As an example, if you had ever observed a Harrier Field site operating under TACEVAL conditions then you might have some idea of what I’m talking about.
Sorry Blacksheep, memory is playing tricks with you there. Kenya appeared as a clasp on the Africa General Service Medal which was first awarded in 1902 with Edward VII's head on the obverse. There was a gap between 1915 and 1956 when the Kenya clasp was approved, probably the longest in the history of British campaign medals.
Malaya and Cyprus were clasps on the old 1918 GSM, whilst Radfan and Borneo appeared on the 1962 version.
Maybe he'd had the clasps refitted onto one medal, but I doubt if an eagle-eyed SWO would have let him get away with that.
Malaya and Cyprus were clasps on the old 1918 GSM, whilst Radfan and Borneo appeared on the 1962 version.
Maybe he'd had the clasps refitted onto one medal, but I doubt if an eagle-eyed SWO would have let him get away with that.
Speaking solely about Fast Jet flying, my contention is still that Cold War flying was VERY MUCH more dangerous than current peacetime or operational flying.
Once again I pose the question: How many Fast Jet aircrew have been killed on operations since GW1?
Once again I pose the question: How many Fast Jet aircrew have been killed on operations since GW1?
Although a 70s child, so very much a nipper during some of the frostiest days of the Cold War, I am guessing that if the balloon had gone up, many sorties would have been one way. In which case, it makes it very difficult to do a side by side comparison with today where a one way sortie would be political suicide for any politician that authorised it.