I'll talk, you fight - PM
Like so many of the RAF's recent woes, this can be laid firmly at the door of the decision in the 90's to stop promoting leaders, and start promoting managers [or failing that, people with plenty of secondary duties and a penchant for saying 'yes'].
It is the role of the command chain to be honest with our masters, whether military or political. For too long, our 'leaders' have just told their bosses everything is rosy, and we can, we can, we can.
Open management/leadership is a cornerstone of any organisation, and the CEO needs to know when a problem is developing, not have it brushed under the carpet in order for someone to get promoted.
If you hide the problems in manpower, to secure equipment during a review of resources, you cannot then cry foul when held to your promises and told to deliver.
That said, the I won't be voting at the next election, for the first time in 27 years. 'Call me Dave' has failed to impress on a number of levels, and I could never bring myself to vote for 'the other lot'.
It is the role of the command chain to be honest with our masters, whether military or political. For too long, our 'leaders' have just told their bosses everything is rosy, and we can, we can, we can.
Open management/leadership is a cornerstone of any organisation, and the CEO needs to know when a problem is developing, not have it brushed under the carpet in order for someone to get promoted.
If you hide the problems in manpower, to secure equipment during a review of resources, you cannot then cry foul when held to your promises and told to deliver.
That said, the I won't be voting at the next election, for the first time in 27 years. 'Call me Dave' has failed to impress on a number of levels, and I could never bring myself to vote for 'the other lot'.
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So the NAO have analysed MoD data and have stated that the SDSR's impact on the equipment programme will be as follows
2014-15 -£2.017bn
2015-16 -£1.402bn
2016-17 -£1.695bn
2017-18 -£2.308bn
2018-19 -£2.567bn
2019-20 -£2.807bn
2020-21 -£4.056bn
Has anyone in a uniform actually endorsed these specific figures, and said that we can still fulfill all our committments as set out in the SDSR even with these levels of cuts?
2014-15 -£2.017bn
2015-16 -£1.402bn
2016-17 -£1.695bn
2017-18 -£2.308bn
2018-19 -£2.567bn
2019-20 -£2.807bn
2020-21 -£4.056bn
Has anyone in a uniform actually endorsed these specific figures, and said that we can still fulfill all our committments as set out in the SDSR even with these levels of cuts?
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Has anyone in a uniform actually endorsed these specific figures, and said that we can still fulfill all our committments as set out in the SDSR even with these levels of cuts?
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minigundiplomat
I won't be voting at the next election, for the first time in 27 years. 'Call me Dave' has failed to impress on a number of levels, and I could never bring myself to vote for 'the other lot'.
The character played by David Niven in "A Matter of Life And Death" said just before departing his Lancaster that he was "Conservative by nature, Labour by experience". Like you I don't go for the latter Party, but once again we have ended up with a Conservative Government that talked a good job in opposition but is doing something else in power with only the promise of jam way down the line.
After 1970, 1979 and all the elections up to 1997 we should have learned by now that they are no more the Party of Defence than they are the Party of Law and Order or the ones who will take on Brussels!
I won't be voting at the next election, for the first time in 27 years. 'Call me Dave' has failed to impress on a number of levels, and I could never bring myself to vote for 'the other lot'.
The character played by David Niven in "A Matter of Life And Death" said just before departing his Lancaster that he was "Conservative by nature, Labour by experience". Like you I don't go for the latter Party, but once again we have ended up with a Conservative Government that talked a good job in opposition but is doing something else in power with only the promise of jam way down the line.
After 1970, 1979 and all the elections up to 1997 we should have learned by now that they are no more the Party of Defence than they are the Party of Law and Order or the ones who will take on Brussels!
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Anyone remember in the 90's when CAS Sir Michael Graydon spoke out about the then Def Sec Malcolm Rifkin. I recall a written apology from CAS in one of the broad sheets. Last laugh to CAS, come elections CAS is still CAS and Mr R is not even an MP. I had a chuckle to myself election night.
Vote
Quote 'I won't be voting at the next election, for the first time in 27 years. 'Call me Dave' has failed to impress on a number of levels, and I could never bring myself to vote for 'the other lot'.
Well I understand what you are saying, but don't you think that by not voting, you may allow the worse of a bad bunch to get in.
Personally, though I agree with all that has been said about 'Call me Dave', at the next election I will vote for the lesser of the Evils. Maybe they are all total plonkers, but some are less plonkerish than others.
That said, however, the problem will be to discover who. As most of them are economical with the Truth, or at the every least, totally change what was promised in their respective manifestos, I probably will have no idea who is the lesser of the Evils.
But I will vote.
Well I understand what you are saying, but don't you think that by not voting, you may allow the worse of a bad bunch to get in.
Personally, though I agree with all that has been said about 'Call me Dave', at the next election I will vote for the lesser of the Evils. Maybe they are all total plonkers, but some are less plonkerish than others.
That said, however, the problem will be to discover who. As most of them are economical with the Truth, or at the every least, totally change what was promised in their respective manifestos, I probably will have no idea who is the lesser of the Evils.
But I will vote.
Sharpend,
I'll also be living comfortably overseas, not quite as far as from whence I came, but a start.
I see the value in the right to vote, I don't see the value in voting these days.
I'll also be living comfortably overseas, not quite as far as from whence I came, but a start.
I see the value in the right to vote, I don't see the value in voting these days.
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In 2010..CMD said (when leader of the opposition)..... listed military figures and civil servants who had attacked the PM Gordon Brown for defence spending shortages.
Cameron said: “Why do you think all these people, dedicated to defence of this country, are wrong?”
Perhaps someone should remind him he said this.
Cameron said: “Why do you think all these people, dedicated to defence of this country, are wrong?”
Perhaps someone should remind him he said this.
There is a Conservative Party that is cutting the deficit, increasing military spending and fighting within their means....
...but it isn't led by CMD.
In fact it's so good over here that our well known recently married SAR pilot is on his way.
P'raps he's PVR'd on the sly and won't be coming back!
...but it isn't led by CMD.
In fact it's so good over here that our well known recently married SAR pilot is on his way.
P'raps he's PVR'd on the sly and won't be coming back!
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Originally Posted by Elderly Old Timer
Has anyone in a uniform actually endorsed these specific figures, and said that we can still fulfill all our committments as set out in the SDSR even with these levels of cuts?
Sadly in my previous post which I believe is #75
Originally Posted by moi
Having just listened to the Vice Chief of the Defence staff General Sir Nicholas Houghton addressing the Parliamentary Defence Committee stating that all is well with our three services and they are all coping quite well with their commitments.Instead of answering the question regarding any military short falls, he rambled on about definitions of resources, strategy, policy and aspirations. After about five minutes of classic 'Yes Prime Minister' civil servant mumbo jumbo, the chairman asked him about numbers and was he happy... 'Yes we are on course to lowering the size of our military to that required for 2024!!!'
I'm off to bed
Last laugh to CAS, come elections CAS is still CAS and Mr R is not even an MP.
I'm no Tory but Rifkind is regarded as one of the more principled politicians of his time. I'm not sure that particular CAS will have the last laugh in the long term. Rifkind has a long memory and is eagerly waiting for Lord Philip to report on the chinook disaster where Graydon, allegedly, may not smell of roses.
But I think Cameron's idea of "fighting" is based on watching too many films. Nothing in his protected, silver-spooned background has prepared him for the real life experienced by 99% of the electorate, never mind the realities of war-fighting. Most of his Ministers are of a similar ilk. And in any case, ACMs are essentially political appointments are they not? Their job is to bridge the gap between reality and politics. That gap is now too big. If Cameron is to ignore these senior officers, then he may as well chop the Forces of 3 Star and above.
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The dates may have changed, the PM & CinC may have changed, the enemy may have changed. I would suggest the sentiment and thrust remains extant .
HEADQUARTERS FIGHTER COMMAND
ROYAL AIR FORCE,
BENTLEY PRIORY,
STANMORE,
MIDDLESEX.
SECRET ROYAL AIR FORCE,
BENTLEY PRIORY,
STANMORE,
MIDDLESEX.
May 16, 1940
Sir,
I have the honour to refer to the very serious calls
which have recently been made upon the Home Defence Fighter'Units
in an attempt to stem the German invasion on the Continent.
2, I hope and believe that our Armies may yet be
victorious in France and Belgium, but we have to face the
possibility that they may be defeated.
3. In this case I presume that there is no-one who will
deny that England should fight on, even though the remainder of
the Continent of Europe is dominated by the Germans.
4. For this purpose it is necessary to retain some
minimum fighter strength in this country and I must request that
the Air Council will inform me what they consider this minimum
strength to be, in order that I may make my dispositions
accordingly.
5. I would remind the Air Council that the last estimate
which they made as to the force necessary to defend this country
was 52 Squadrons, and my strength has now been reduced to the
equivalent of 36 Squadrons.
6. Once a decision has been reached as to the limit on
which the Air Council and the Cabinet are prepared to stake the
existence of the country, it should be made clear to the Allied
Commanders on the Continent that not a single aeroplane from
Fighter Command beyond the limit will be sent across the Channel,
no matter how desperate the situation may become.
7. It will, of course, be remembered that the estimate
of 52 Squadrons was based on the assumption that the attack
would come from the eastwards except in so far as the defences
might be outflanked in flight. We have now to face the
possibility that attacks may come from Spain or even from the
North coast of France. The result is that our line is very
much extended at the same time as our resources are reduced.
8. I must point out that within the last few days the
equivalent of 10 Squadrons have been sent to France, that the
Hurricane Squadrons remaining in this country are seriously
depleted, and that the more Squadrons which are sent to France
the higher will be the wastage and the more insistent the
demands for reinforcements.
9. I must therefore request that as a matter of
paramount urgency the Air Ministry will consider and
decide what level of strength is to be left to the
Fighter Command for the defences of this country, and will
assure me that when this level has been reached, not one
fighter will be sent across the Channel however urgent
and insistent the appeals for help may be.
10. I believe that, if an adequate fighter force is
kept in this country, if the fleet remains in being, and
if Home Forces are suitably organised to resist invasion,
we should be able to carry on the war single handed for
some time, if not indefinitely. But, if the Home Defence
Force is drained away in desperate attempts to remedy the
situation in France, defeat in France will involve the
final, complete and irremediable defeat of this country.
I have the honour to be,
Sir,
Your obedient Servant,
Air Chief Marshal,
Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief,
Fighter Command,Royal Air Force.
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To be fair to the man, he has spent his whole career in the C party. It's no wonder he doesn't understand how most of the country functions, including members of the armed forces, because he has no experience of any of it (looking at it through a clean window doesn't count).
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With All due respect to those serving we need to address a few issues.
1. When I was serving I did what the government of the day said.
2. This poor excuse of a country is bankrupt We cannot afford the £250 000 000 Libya has cost.
3. The population as a whole think we should not be in Afghanistan or Libya.
4. We are in negotiations with the Taliban in an effort to disengage from Afghanistan.
5. The reach and influence of Britain is small and getting smaller and that fact dictates the requirements of the SDSR.
6. Numerically the military might of the UK is smaller than a company like Tesco
1. When I was serving I did what the government of the day said.
2. This poor excuse of a country is bankrupt We cannot afford the £250 000 000 Libya has cost.
3. The population as a whole think we should not be in Afghanistan or Libya.
4. We are in negotiations with the Taliban in an effort to disengage from Afghanistan.
5. The reach and influence of Britain is small and getting smaller and that fact dictates the requirements of the SDSR.
6. Numerically the military might of the UK is smaller than a company like Tesco
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St Nick
1. When I was serving I did what the government of the day said. (Indeed but only if you have the kit and the people to do it)
2. This poor excuse of a country is bankrupt We cannot afford the £250 000 000 Libya has cost. (And we can afford to spend far more than that on the Olympics??)
3. The population as a whole think we should not be in Afghanistan or Libya. (The view of the British public has generally been that we should spend more money on defence and that we should not allow dictators to bully us or create instability. However as with almost all post-1945 conflicts the British public doesn't like seeing British service men risk their lives for a bunch of foreigners, and that includes the inhabitants of Belfast)
4. We are in negotiations with the Taliban in an effort to disengage from Afghanistan. (We've negotiated with most of the terrorist groups we've defeated - as Clausewitz says war is the continuation of politics by other means so this is nothing new)
5. The reach and influence of Britain is small and getting smaller and that fact dictates the requirements of the SDSR. (The only reason for our reach and influence to decline is if we allow the appeasers in our midst - and I certainly don't include you in that group - to gut the armed forces)
6. Numerically the military might of the UK is smaller than a company like Tesco (I don't recall anyone at Tesco taking on Walmart in hand-to-hand combat or risking their lives for their fellow wage slaves)
1. When I was serving I did what the government of the day said. (Indeed but only if you have the kit and the people to do it)
2. This poor excuse of a country is bankrupt We cannot afford the £250 000 000 Libya has cost. (And we can afford to spend far more than that on the Olympics??)
3. The population as a whole think we should not be in Afghanistan or Libya. (The view of the British public has generally been that we should spend more money on defence and that we should not allow dictators to bully us or create instability. However as with almost all post-1945 conflicts the British public doesn't like seeing British service men risk their lives for a bunch of foreigners, and that includes the inhabitants of Belfast)
4. We are in negotiations with the Taliban in an effort to disengage from Afghanistan. (We've negotiated with most of the terrorist groups we've defeated - as Clausewitz says war is the continuation of politics by other means so this is nothing new)
5. The reach and influence of Britain is small and getting smaller and that fact dictates the requirements of the SDSR. (The only reason for our reach and influence to decline is if we allow the appeasers in our midst - and I certainly don't include you in that group - to gut the armed forces)
6. Numerically the military might of the UK is smaller than a company like Tesco (I don't recall anyone at Tesco taking on Walmart in hand-to-hand combat or risking their lives for their fellow wage slaves)
st nicholas,
You said: "2. This poor excuse of a country is bankrupt We cannot afford the £250 000 000 Libya has cost. (And we can afford to spend far more than that on the Olympics??)"
You clearly have no idea what the word bankrupt actually means have you?
The UK us still one of the wealthiest nations on the face of the planet. It has the third or fourth largest defence budget, is the 6th largest manufacturing economy and has financial capital investment on a truly global scale.
The Government is increasing Foreign aid, is increasing our contributions to the IMF by £9b and continues to fund such causes as the UN sponsored child immunisation campaign.
Hardly sounds bankrupt to me.
The fact that even the Tories do not want to spend more than £40b annually on defence is a fact that I suspect the majority of the population fully support. After all, we have as much actual need for defence forces as Ireland does, we have just chosen to spend an outlandish amount of money on pointless and totally futile foreign interventions.
What price all the blood and treasure sacrifice in Afghanistan when we are pulling out in 2014 and the US is going to be out by 2013 along with the French.
Is there any point fighting for that village/compound/province that we hold for a while, and then allow the Taliban back into, now totally pointless? What are the locals going to think when they know we will be gone in a few years time?
£40b per annum wasted.
You said: "2. This poor excuse of a country is bankrupt We cannot afford the £250 000 000 Libya has cost. (And we can afford to spend far more than that on the Olympics??)"
You clearly have no idea what the word bankrupt actually means have you?
The UK us still one of the wealthiest nations on the face of the planet. It has the third or fourth largest defence budget, is the 6th largest manufacturing economy and has financial capital investment on a truly global scale.
The Government is increasing Foreign aid, is increasing our contributions to the IMF by £9b and continues to fund such causes as the UN sponsored child immunisation campaign.
Hardly sounds bankrupt to me.
The fact that even the Tories do not want to spend more than £40b annually on defence is a fact that I suspect the majority of the population fully support. After all, we have as much actual need for defence forces as Ireland does, we have just chosen to spend an outlandish amount of money on pointless and totally futile foreign interventions.
What price all the blood and treasure sacrifice in Afghanistan when we are pulling out in 2014 and the US is going to be out by 2013 along with the French.
Is there any point fighting for that village/compound/province that we hold for a while, and then allow the Taliban back into, now totally pointless? What are the locals going to think when they know we will be gone in a few years time?
£40b per annum wasted.