I'll talk, you fight - PM

[camacho]

Given how quickly the wheels seem to be coming off every policy the coalition has, and given the rumoured unease inside the Tory Party, I'm sure Call-Me-C**t (3-Bladed Beast spot on there) woke up to news of this leak, threw his teddy at the wall and had a quiet scream in the Rose Garden. But then this is a punter who rightly kicked Labour for doling out jobs to its mates, then got into power and, if the Torygraph is to be believed, tried to put his personal photographer and film maker on our tax bill.

David Cameron's personal photographer taken off public payroll - Telegraph

Put simply, though, if you don't want stuff like this leaking out, you have two unpalatable (to a pol) choices : pony up for armed forces that can do this kind of work for as long as it needs to be done, or put a spike through your ego and stop mincing across the world stage. Things cost what they cost, war is never cheap, and if you haven't grasped that after a lifetime sitting on your backside swotting up for the job you're in, go, and let's get Nosher Powell for PM.

[Roland Pulfrew]

'Look, tell you what, you do the fighting and I'll do the talking'

Take a message Baldrick.

Message reads:

David Cameron. With the number of current and former senior officers telling you have got it wrong on Defence, perhaps whilst we do the fighting (and dying) perhaps you might stop talking and do some listening.

With everyone from junior ranks to senior ranks telling you SDSR was not about strategy and is/was all a crock of shte perhaps a lot more listening is in order.

I do hope that you will be apologising to Sir Simon Bryant.

Message ends.

[endplay]

where's beags?

[Halton Brat]

Lions, led by donkeys?

I knew we would end up at this pass; at my discharge interview (hat & coffee) with the Stn Cdr in the mid '90s, I voiced my concern for the future of an RAF in the hands of the likes of Mr Portillo & his ilk. The Stn Cdr declined this golden opportunity to debate such weighty matters with a mere Chf Tech, resplendent though I was in my Best Blue, and gazed wistfully out of his window at the Phantom parked on God's Acre.

The inevitable passing of the generation of politicians who saw active service in WW2/Korea has left our Forces in the hands of a generation of 'leaders' for whom the 'Rambo' movie genre has provided the foundation of their military vision. Tony Blair, upon his postcode change to a Downing St address, revealed his intimate knowledge of the structure of HM Forces by estimating SAS strength at 40,000 (actual at the time: c400).

I would implore & entreat those retiring from HM Forces to become politically active, in order that we may once again have elected representatives with an understanding of matters military.

However, if a more honourable career path is desired, then perhaps drug dealing/gun running/paedophilia could be considered.

I'm sure that I hear 'Drake's Drum' beating..............

HB

[jindabyne]

Daddy

Somewhat briefer than your Falklands piece!!

The Ram?? You know full well that real politics are versed in that other place ----

[DADDY-OH!]

Jindy'

Yes, next time I'm passing, I'll grab a Guinness & take a pew in the Public Gallery, especially when it's 'Colonel's Questions' or 'Red Leader's Rants'.

[JFZ90]

I think this is really really bad.

Is it just me or is this the rudest, more disrespectful comment ever to be uttered by a PM to the armed forces?

They must be absolutely fuming!!!

Rather than be contrite about underfunding in these difficult times, hes effectively saying "carry on fighting/dying and I don't expect any compliants about us underfunding you".

Not good. When asking the military to do difficult things with scarce resource, the absolute minimum is to ask politely and with respect.

Cameron really is not PM material is he?

Shocked.

[FODPlod]

'Look, tell you what, you do the fighting and I'll do the talking'

Talk is cheap except when it's at the expense of listening and the lives of brave men and women are at stake.

And to think I supported him on the basis that he'd save the Armed Forces after a decade of financial flat-lining by Blair and Brown who, despite involving us as the 'other' main player in two resource-draining wars, threw money at every government department other than Defence.

[ghostnav]

Won't be long before he will be filmed shaking hands with troops somewhere as if nothing had been said.

[Exascot]

Very, very disappointed in the PM

I just can't believe he said that.

There is only one explanation, he has taken up an old habit:

Exclusive: Cameron DID smoke cannabis | Mail Online

[500N]

Maybe Cameron needs to do the talking but before he does that, like opening his mouth and getting the Def Forces involved in another war, he needs to provide
the Generals with the goods to fight the war, then they might not do so much talking.

[A2QFI]

Gobby Cameron and many of his Cabinet in their fighting uniform

Google Image Result for http://3.bp.********.com/-jc5ApKflWZo/TVg7U9YEP2I/AAAAAAAAAAc/Qd_hIjPN8u4/s1600/cameron-bullingdon-club.jpg

[multum in parvo]

The way that the UK forces operate within our democracy is critical both for their standing in society and the health of our democracy. As part of that process the senior leaders of the military have, within their remit, a responsibility (duty?) to provide, on request from our elected leaders, their advice/opinions concerning their Service. That advice/opinion may be given to the PM, Ministers or the HoC Defence Committee (you can find some very good video footage which records verbatim evidence given to the HoC Defence Committee on the HoC website) either aurally or in written form.

It is vital that those who hold the government to account in the HoC ( and vote when applicable on policy/decisions that affect the Armed Forces) have, as near as possible, the accurate information to hand - warts and all. As far as I can see, from the public reports to which we all have access, CinC Air has done nothing more than meet his responsibilities in this area.

I hope that the PM had no intention of suggesting that senior serving officers in the Armed Forces should not be playing their part in ensuring a healthy democracy and therefore that his off the cuff remark was just that. In the circumstances I would hope (as others have mentioned) that the PM should write to Sir Simon to clarify.

Having been privileged to serve on operations under his command it is my view that Sir Simon Bryant is a first class professional officer who serves his country to the best of his, undoubtedly, outstanding ability. One would hope that others who operate within our democratic process could demonstrate the same

[rjtjrt]

Not being from UK it is probably impertinent to express an opinion but what the heck.
To me it seems refreshing to have a poli/PM who speaks his mind. No politically correct minder telling him what to say, or how to put it so he doesn't offend anyone.
The opposite of spin.
It seemed the Brits were sick of spin with the previous incumbent. Well this is it - no spin. And refreshing.
I can't say what he said isn't basically true.
In our neck of the wood we have more and more press conferences from defence force chiefs than I ever recall in the past. And they (def chiefs) now speak poli-speak, and are ever so politically correct.
Surely defence force chiefs should express there opinion re what they can and can't do, with the resources supplied, to the politicians (and I heard in this case the defence chief apparently said it to a parliamentary committee and it was leaked).
Defence force chief may well have to tell poli that the service can't provide the were with all to do what the poli wants to announce as foreign policy. Suddenly the poli may see there are consequences to them of the cuts, and to their ambitions on the world stage.
John

[taxydual]

What value The Armed Forces Covenant now?

The Government recognises the need to do more to ensure our Armed Forces, veterans and their families have the support they need and are treated with the dignity they deserve.

My bold.

Ministry of Defence | About Defence | What we do | Personnel | Welfare | Armed Forces Covenant | The Armed Forces Covenant

[Alexander.Yakovlev]

All this after his speech at the Sovereigns Parade at Cranwell last Thursday. Very two faced.

[jindabyne]

I'll grab a Guinness & take a pew in the Public Gallery

You know your place!

[glojo]

Not being from UK it is probably impertinent to express an opinion but what the heck.
To me it seems refreshing to have a poli/PM who speaks his mind. No politically correct minder telling him what to say, or how to put it so he doesn't offend anyone.
The oposite of spin.
It seemed the Brits were sick of spin with the previous incumbent. Well this is it - no spin. And refreshing.
I can't say what he said isn't basically true.
In our neck of the wood we have more and more press conferences from defence force chiefs than I ever recall in the past. And they (def chiefs) now speak poli-speak, and are ever so politically correct.
Surely defence force chiefs should express there opinion re what they can and can't do, with the resources supplied, to the politicians (and I heard in this case the defence chief apparently said it to a parliamentary committee and it was leaked).
Defence force chief may well have to tell poli that the service can't provide the were with all to do what the poli wants to announce as foreign policy. Suddenly the poli may see there are consequences to the cuts to them and their ambitions on the world stage.
John

Good morning John,
Well said and I guess Cameron did not pull any punches but I am slightly confused as to the target.

The officer involved most certainly did NOT speak out of turn, I would have respected him more if he had of done. I am with all due respect to our Brylcreem boys and now girls, more disappointed regarding the lack of support shown to this officer by his immediate boss.

My personal thoughts regarding those above the rank of anyone that does the actual fighting is that they are usually more interested in their very own career development as opposed to what is best for those they serve\represent. (note the word 'usually' and please observe it is NOT the word 'always' as I note the First Sea Lord had the audacity to publicly voice his concerns regarding similar issues)

Air Chief Marshal Bryant was asked in private and in confidence what his opinion was. He gave that opinion in a way I fear he would not have divulged publicly. If this officer had known the information was going to be leaked with his name at the top of the paper, does anyone hear honestly believe he would have uttered a word out of line?

If the Head of the RAF were to now come out publicly and stand by every word of this Air Chief Marshal then I would start to rethink my opinions of these people that I say again are usually more interested in titles than they are in there profession.

The senior service has made some effort to tell it how it is but where was Air Chief Marshal Bryant on that day? Where was our comrade in arms when the Royal Navy were saying very similar words IN PUBLIC and standing by what was being said?

Is it time for our Armed Services to develop a back bone and speak out for those they represent? Enough and no further might well be too stronger a wording, but they are paid to give advice and saying they do not have the equipment, or manpower to carry out the requests of Her Majesty's Government is something both the Army and Royal Airforce did when asked their opinions regarding the mounting of certain operations. They have done it before and not been sacked... Let them do it again whenever they feel they are correct in their assessment.

I guess we will have to wait until these folks retire before they develop an ability to say anything controversial.

[multum in parvo]

glojo

You ask " Is it time for our Armed Services to develop a back bone and speak out for those they represent?"

I think you will find that they do and regularly - in the right places. They are not Trade Union Leaders who (legitimately) engage in open political debate. They take an oath that binds them to carry out the (legitimate) orders of our democratically elected representatives.

If there is an issue, it is that we have punched way above our weight for so many years that the "can do" attitude of the Armed Forces is too often abused by our politicians.

[glojo]

You ask " Is it time for our Armed Services to develop a back bone and speak out for those they represent?"

I think you will find that they do and regularly - in the right places. They are not Trade Union Leaders who (legitimately) engage in open political debate. They take an oath that binds them to carry out the (legitimate) orders of our democratically elected representatives.

If there is an issue, it is that we have punched way above our weight for so many years that the "can do" attitude of the Armed Forces is too often abused by our politicians.

I most certainly do not disagree with what you are saying however when the task is one step too far then blind obedience is what gets those at the front line killed.

Those officers AT THE VERY HIGHEST LEVEL are those that have the responsibility of saying 'NO that cannot be done!'

We at the front end can only say, "Yes sir!" and then get on with the task.

Punching above our weight is not something I can comment on.