I'll talk, you fight - PM
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pr00ne
The global assets you mention are not the Governments to sell apart from a few embassies.
The overseas aid and IMF contributions have to be borrowed hence our hugh deficit and increasing national debt.
The costly foreign interventions were made by your friends in New Labour but continued by call me Dave who wants to strut the world stage in the same way as Blair did.
Inclined to agree with youir final comment.
I suggest you stick to the Law and leave Accountancy to others.
The global assets you mention are not the Governments to sell apart from a few embassies.
The overseas aid and IMF contributions have to be borrowed hence our hugh deficit and increasing national debt.
The costly foreign interventions were made by your friends in New Labour but continued by call me Dave who wants to strut the world stage in the same way as Blair did.
Inclined to agree with youir final comment.
I suggest you stick to the Law and leave Accountancy to others.
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The argument for the UK's Defence capability must stretch beyond Afghanistan and Libya. The Arab Spring has brought a stark message to all that, regardless of whether or not you wish to help, hinder or otherwise, the World is rather unpredictable and the status quo of partnerships, alliances and 'special' relationships will not last forever. Arguing that the ~£40Bn Defence Budget may be better spent because Afghanistan (and Libya) are wasteful to country wracked with debt is tantamount to stating the obvious.
Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum
If we lose the only true insurance policy we have to defend our interests as a Sovereign nation then our ability to dictate those interests will be taken from us by force eventually.
Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum
If we lose the only true insurance policy we have to defend our interests as a Sovereign nation then our ability to dictate those interests will be taken from us by force eventually.
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BBC reporter Laura Kuenssberg tweeting that the individual Service Chiefs are to lose their places on the Defence Board. She quotes an independent report due out next week and goes on to state that CDS will stay on and the individual Service Chiefs will get more powers.
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Elderly PT and Proone have hit the nail pretty well in my view,
to be honest -
doesn't seem to make sense, maybe there's an edit I missed - but the UK is pretty well off, we just keep pi$$ing it against the wind, and the sooner we stop doing that the sooner we'll all realise the truth of it.
Arguably we're in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya to protect our access to oil, primarily no doubt because despite our sure knowledge of the limitations of the fossil fuel supply we've not really put the time, effort, or research into finding an alternative. Okay, but having decided this (killing Johny Foreigner) is something we have to do, then we need to fund it for success - it's cheaper to recruit more of the lower classes and have them killed than to provide the kit needed to do the job properly to completion. We've done that for centuries....We ALWAYS work this way, frankly. It's only recently that the global comms revolution has brought the swapping of lives for oil (etc) into clearer focus.
Call Me Dave isn't really the most cynical piece of garbage on the planet, it's just that every year anyone with half a brain gets to understand realpolitik a bit better... it's all downhill from here, get used to it!
Unfortunately the death of servicemen only ever affects a small number of people - they are devastated, but the rest of the population hardly even notice. While society doesn't give a toss - and on the whole it really only stirs if something really odd happens - then making do with very little will remain the order of the day.
Should the senior ranks stand up and talk sense for once? Yes, of course they should - self respect should have told them that a long time ago however, and when they don't stand up and be counted they are pretty much following the example of centuries, not just a few decades, past.
Dave
to be honest -
The global assets you mention are not the Governments to sell apart from a few embassies.
Arguably we're in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya to protect our access to oil, primarily no doubt because despite our sure knowledge of the limitations of the fossil fuel supply we've not really put the time, effort, or research into finding an alternative. Okay, but having decided this (killing Johny Foreigner) is something we have to do, then we need to fund it for success - it's cheaper to recruit more of the lower classes and have them killed than to provide the kit needed to do the job properly to completion. We've done that for centuries....We ALWAYS work this way, frankly. It's only recently that the global comms revolution has brought the swapping of lives for oil (etc) into clearer focus.
Call Me Dave isn't really the most cynical piece of garbage on the planet, it's just that every year anyone with half a brain gets to understand realpolitik a bit better... it's all downhill from here, get used to it!
Unfortunately the death of servicemen only ever affects a small number of people - they are devastated, but the rest of the population hardly even notice. While society doesn't give a toss - and on the whole it really only stirs if something really odd happens - then making do with very little will remain the order of the day.
Should the senior ranks stand up and talk sense for once? Yes, of course they should - self respect should have told them that a long time ago however, and when they don't stand up and be counted they are pretty much following the example of centuries, not just a few decades, past.
Dave
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You must all remember our current PM was also a Prefect, sad thing is, he still has the badge.
He has never got his hands dirty through toil, always others
He has never run a Company or been self employed
It seems his old man was the forrunner of the sorts who have just tucked up all the banks,
So how come he feels he can run the Country, its quite simply no one will argue face to face with him in public, I voted for the Conservatives, but wont next time, niether could I ever vote for the others all a bunch of crap heads. so what do we do.
Winter Revolution seems the only way out of this mire to get things back to some semblance of order where we could at least defend ourselves!!
Sad Eh !!
Peter R-B
He has never got his hands dirty through toil, always others
He has never run a Company or been self employed
It seems his old man was the forrunner of the sorts who have just tucked up all the banks,
So how come he feels he can run the Country, its quite simply no one will argue face to face with him in public, I voted for the Conservatives, but wont next time, niether could I ever vote for the others all a bunch of crap heads. so what do we do.
Winter Revolution seems the only way out of this mire to get things back to some semblance of order where we could at least defend ourselves!!
Sad Eh !!
Peter R-B
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BBC reporter Laura Kuenssberg tweeting that the individual Service Chiefs are to lose their places on the Defence Board. She quotes an independent report due out next week and goes on to state that CDS will stay on and the individual Service Chiefs will get more powers.
Good or bad? Who knows, I PVR'd whilst it was still 6 months to exit.
The Daily Mash - Public school ponce acts pretty ballsy
LOL
....This has resulted in a rented Nissan Micra filled with an officer from the army, navy and air force sitting in airport car parks across the globe with the engine running at all times.
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I'm quite amused at some of the old tosh being written here, come on people just how many life skills do you really think a PM should have experienced before being qualified for the job?
Should he/she have spent some time as a refuse collector, postman, shop worker, factory worker etc to have empathy with folk in those roles?
Using some of the barking logic from in here surely he/she would have to spend time as a nurse, doctor, porter, specialist, surgeon etc to have a proper grasp of how the NHS works?
With regard to DC,s lack of military background just what do any of you think is the bare minimum spec on that score? Should he have spent some time as a soldier/airman/sailor then gone on for some tri service time at both SNCO and officer level?
Where does it stop?
Cameron got where is by being good at what he does, as do so many of us. I have never been a postman, bin man, doctor etc etc but if I have a reasonable understanding of what they do why would I assume DC does not.
Some of you really do need to stop bleating about politicians and grasp the fact that the country is well and truly in the dwang. The Tories inherited a huge cup of cold sick and there is nothing but pain on the horizon for us all.
The pay freeze hits me in the pocket to a tidy tune in lost pension and gratuity next year. Mrs SFFP recently got made redundant but stuff happens, we are simply sucking it up, cutting our cloth accordingly and getting on with it.
I have been in the RAF for many years now and have lost count of the times I heard the same old "we will never be able to cope" whinge but we always do and I bet we continue to so for many years to come.
DC was correct to tell us to STFU and get on with, it's what he's having to tell the whole country so why should we be any different.
Should he/she have spent some time as a refuse collector, postman, shop worker, factory worker etc to have empathy with folk in those roles?
Using some of the barking logic from in here surely he/she would have to spend time as a nurse, doctor, porter, specialist, surgeon etc to have a proper grasp of how the NHS works?
With regard to DC,s lack of military background just what do any of you think is the bare minimum spec on that score? Should he have spent some time as a soldier/airman/sailor then gone on for some tri service time at both SNCO and officer level?
Where does it stop?
Cameron got where is by being good at what he does, as do so many of us. I have never been a postman, bin man, doctor etc etc but if I have a reasonable understanding of what they do why would I assume DC does not.
Some of you really do need to stop bleating about politicians and grasp the fact that the country is well and truly in the dwang. The Tories inherited a huge cup of cold sick and there is nothing but pain on the horizon for us all.
The pay freeze hits me in the pocket to a tidy tune in lost pension and gratuity next year. Mrs SFFP recently got made redundant but stuff happens, we are simply sucking it up, cutting our cloth accordingly and getting on with it.
I have been in the RAF for many years now and have lost count of the times I heard the same old "we will never be able to cope" whinge but we always do and I bet we continue to so for many years to come.
DC was correct to tell us to STFU and get on with, it's what he's having to tell the whole country so why should we be any different.
DC was correct to tell us to STFU and get on with, it's what he's having to tell the whole country so why should we be any different
Seldom, I seldom disagree with what you say, but I think it an important factor here that "refuse collectors, postmen, shop workers, factory workers etc" are not being asked to place their lives on the line (except when servicing certain parts of Glasgow
). Therefore, I think Cameron should moderate his words accordingly. A quiet word is often more effective than going on TV and publicly embarrassing someone who cannot answer back. Not only does he still have his prefect badge, but still acts the playground bully.
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The picture of David Cameron he didn't want releasing.........
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SFFP
Would you assert that if our Airships are asked direct questions by a specific arm of the government they should tell them what they want to hear, rather than the truth. Surely the ACM was well within his brief to answer as he did, no? The leak was likely to have come from another arm of government chasing their own agenda. I agree in that publicly bleating does no one any favours but in this case that's not what happened.
The PMs ire should be directed at his civil servants for whom the OSA is a luxury, not a necessity. The ACM deserves a full public apology.
Would you assert that if our Airships are asked direct questions by a specific arm of the government they should tell them what they want to hear, rather than the truth. Surely the ACM was well within his brief to answer as he did, no? The leak was likely to have come from another arm of government chasing their own agenda. I agree in that publicly bleating does no one any favours but in this case that's not what happened.
The PMs ire should be directed at his civil servants for whom the OSA is a luxury, not a necessity. The ACM deserves a full public apology.
My money is on the leak being by a right wing Tory MP, or a senior MoD civil servant who can't bear the shame of what's happening any longer. Can't see how it benefits Labour - the Grauniad doesn't even have a defence section to report it.
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Using some of the barking logic from in here surely he/she would have to spend time as a nurse, doctor, porter, specialist, surgeon etc to have a proper grasp of how the NHS works?
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"I'm quite amused at some of the old tosh being written here, come on people just how many life skills do you really think a PM should have experienced before being qualified for the job? Should he/she have spent some time as a refuse collector, postman, shop worker, factory worker etc to have empathy with folk in those roles?"
Not necessarily those roles directly, but a damn sight more than just having taken the route of Private School/Uni/Party Intern/SpAd/PPC parachuted into safe seat/Minister/PM. The age of the professional politician, I would venture is not doing us any favours. If you're meant to be not just the leader of your political party, but also to lead the nation, to unite them, to get them on side for some difficult decisions that have to be taken in the national interest, damn right you ought to have some relevant life skills, you need to be able to engage with the electorate and relate to them, not turn them off and remain remote from them except for when you go begging for their votes every five years.
"Using some of the barking logic from in here surely he/she would have to spend time as a nurse, doctor, porter, specialist, surgeon etc to have a proper grasp of how the NHS works?"
Not necessarily for the office of PM, but I would venture that much less political interfering harm and much more clear direction and vision would be had by having ministers in place who had a solid understanding of their breifing. Thats not to say that it cant be got wrong and that the vision that say an ex-military SecDef is automatically the right one because they served in uniform (Bunter Soames or Andrew Lansley, anyone?), but I would much rather have a case like that, than the crazy notion of promoting Alan Johnson to Shadow Chancellor, when he readily admitted he didnt have the first idea as to what the hell the office was about - and this was arguably the second most important (shadow) position in government.
"With regard to DC,s lack of military background just what do any of you think is the bare minimum spec on that score? Should he have spent some time as a soldier/airman/sailor then gone on for some tri service time at both SNCO and officer level?"
This isnt about DC's lack of military background, its about putting gob into action without thinking first, in pursuit of a snappy soundbite. If he DID take a personal active interest in the outcome of SDSR, then it is plainly obvious that he has no ex military background. For a SecDef, ideally, I would say having served for a minimum of four or five years, either commissioned or non commissioned, it doesnt matter. You have to have an understanding of what you're personally responsible for, the people, the systems, of what you're going to be charged with asking them to do. Why would this be so bad? Do I take it you prefer the deference of the first world war where everyone just tugged their forelocks, thought their elders and betters and higher ups knew better and went willingly to their deaths in the face of withering machine gun fire because Haig thought that horse Cavalry would always prevail?? Sorry, those days are rightly consigned to the dark days of history.
"Cameron got where is by being good at what he does, as do so many of us. I have never been a postman, bin man, doctor etc etc but if I have a reasonable understanding of what they do why would I assume DC does not."
Fair enough.
"Some of you really do need to stop bleating about politicians and grasp the fact that the country is well and truly in the dwang."
And, with respect, you may wish to ruminate on quite how it got there and who was at the helm and what kind of life experiences they had got outside of the above mentioned professional politician path. How to get out of the dwang might be a good idea. The main thing the public need to do is cure themselves of political apathy, get off the sofas, put down the bag of Doritos and tins of Stella and get their fat arses out and vote when they are given the opportunity. Hardly surprising when a large section of the public dont give a toss about politics, that most politicians end up not giving a s**t about them.
"The Tories inherited a huge cup of cold sick and there is nothing but pain on the horizon for us all. "
Arguably so. Whoever got into power was going to inherit the mess, but its what you do to set a path out of said cup that is important. In such times, the ability to carry the nation with you, particularly the armed forces, if you are engaged in conflicts around the world where you are expecting them to pay the ultimate price, is important. Rightly or wrongly, Britain and most other nations for that matter dont take too well to being told to "do as I say or else" as a style of leadership.
"the pay freeze hits me in the pocket to a tidy tune in lost pension and gratuity next year. Mrs SFFP recently got made redundant but stuff happens, we are simply sucking it up, cutting our cloth accordingly and getting on with it. "
As are a lot of us. It does not cost anything not to be flippant when you occupy the highest position in government.
"DC was correct to tell us to STFU and get on with, it's what he's having to tell the whole country so why should we be any different. "
You could argue that, but the rest of the country, with the exception of the emergency services dont face being asked to pay the ultimate price on a reasonably regular basis. It does make a difference. We ARE different.
I have no problem with DC's thinking such a thing, even out loud, but IMVVHO this is not quite the way to win friends and influence people. He already has a notable PR problem as it is through accident of birth that he can do nothing about, which those with chips on their shoulders and their own political agendas will, and often do, exploit. Making a rod for your own back when you've already got a difficult enough job as it is is daft.
Not necessarily those roles directly, but a damn sight more than just having taken the route of Private School/Uni/Party Intern/SpAd/PPC parachuted into safe seat/Minister/PM. The age of the professional politician, I would venture is not doing us any favours. If you're meant to be not just the leader of your political party, but also to lead the nation, to unite them, to get them on side for some difficult decisions that have to be taken in the national interest, damn right you ought to have some relevant life skills, you need to be able to engage with the electorate and relate to them, not turn them off and remain remote from them except for when you go begging for their votes every five years.
"Using some of the barking logic from in here surely he/she would have to spend time as a nurse, doctor, porter, specialist, surgeon etc to have a proper grasp of how the NHS works?"
Not necessarily for the office of PM, but I would venture that much less political interfering harm and much more clear direction and vision would be had by having ministers in place who had a solid understanding of their breifing. Thats not to say that it cant be got wrong and that the vision that say an ex-military SecDef is automatically the right one because they served in uniform (Bunter Soames or Andrew Lansley, anyone?), but I would much rather have a case like that, than the crazy notion of promoting Alan Johnson to Shadow Chancellor, when he readily admitted he didnt have the first idea as to what the hell the office was about - and this was arguably the second most important (shadow) position in government.
"With regard to DC,s lack of military background just what do any of you think is the bare minimum spec on that score? Should he have spent some time as a soldier/airman/sailor then gone on for some tri service time at both SNCO and officer level?"
This isnt about DC's lack of military background, its about putting gob into action without thinking first, in pursuit of a snappy soundbite. If he DID take a personal active interest in the outcome of SDSR, then it is plainly obvious that he has no ex military background. For a SecDef, ideally, I would say having served for a minimum of four or five years, either commissioned or non commissioned, it doesnt matter. You have to have an understanding of what you're personally responsible for, the people, the systems, of what you're going to be charged with asking them to do. Why would this be so bad? Do I take it you prefer the deference of the first world war where everyone just tugged their forelocks, thought their elders and betters and higher ups knew better and went willingly to their deaths in the face of withering machine gun fire because Haig thought that horse Cavalry would always prevail?? Sorry, those days are rightly consigned to the dark days of history.
"Cameron got where is by being good at what he does, as do so many of us. I have never been a postman, bin man, doctor etc etc but if I have a reasonable understanding of what they do why would I assume DC does not."
Fair enough.
"Some of you really do need to stop bleating about politicians and grasp the fact that the country is well and truly in the dwang."
And, with respect, you may wish to ruminate on quite how it got there and who was at the helm and what kind of life experiences they had got outside of the above mentioned professional politician path. How to get out of the dwang might be a good idea. The main thing the public need to do is cure themselves of political apathy, get off the sofas, put down the bag of Doritos and tins of Stella and get their fat arses out and vote when they are given the opportunity. Hardly surprising when a large section of the public dont give a toss about politics, that most politicians end up not giving a s**t about them.
"The Tories inherited a huge cup of cold sick and there is nothing but pain on the horizon for us all. "
Arguably so. Whoever got into power was going to inherit the mess, but its what you do to set a path out of said cup that is important. In such times, the ability to carry the nation with you, particularly the armed forces, if you are engaged in conflicts around the world where you are expecting them to pay the ultimate price, is important. Rightly or wrongly, Britain and most other nations for that matter dont take too well to being told to "do as I say or else" as a style of leadership.
"the pay freeze hits me in the pocket to a tidy tune in lost pension and gratuity next year. Mrs SFFP recently got made redundant but stuff happens, we are simply sucking it up, cutting our cloth accordingly and getting on with it. "
As are a lot of us. It does not cost anything not to be flippant when you occupy the highest position in government.
"DC was correct to tell us to STFU and get on with, it's what he's having to tell the whole country so why should we be any different. "
You could argue that, but the rest of the country, with the exception of the emergency services dont face being asked to pay the ultimate price on a reasonably regular basis. It does make a difference. We ARE different.
I have no problem with DC's thinking such a thing, even out loud, but IMVVHO this is not quite the way to win friends and influence people. He already has a notable PR problem as it is through accident of birth that he can do nothing about, which those with chips on their shoulders and their own political agendas will, and often do, exploit. Making a rod for your own back when you've already got a difficult enough job as it is is daft.
The UK us still one of the wealthiest nations on the face of the planet. It has the third or fourth largest defence budget, is the 6th largest manufacturing economy and has financial capital investment on a truly global scale.
I certainly don't think we have quite the third or fourth largest Air Force.
Very far from it.
Doubtless Mr pr00ne you can explain all.
FB
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Its not so much about appointing a defence secretary who has experience of defence (Liam Fox does have at least a little) - its got everything to do with listening to those with the experience, rather than publically suggesting that you know better, in the face of all the evidence!
Liam Fox appears to have been pushed very much to the back for some of his previous criticism of policy, as it seems have the service heads. So if those supposidly in senior defence appointments aren't being listened to, then who is? Who will be on the defence board?
Liam Fox appears to have been pushed very much to the back for some of his previous criticism of policy, as it seems have the service heads. So if those supposidly in senior defence appointments aren't being listened to, then who is? Who will be on the defence board?