LIBYA (Merged) Use this thread ONLY
I expect the attack on any Gadaffi forces advancing is being justified on the grounds that they are currently bound to attack civilians also. If the reports (from a doctor) from Misrata are correct, Gadaffi has snipers surrounding a hospital shooting anyone going in or out. Shades of Bosnia. Gadaffi is not being as cynically intelligent about this as Saddam was, so bombing anything (general ammo dumps, rather than strictly AD ammo dumps for example) is OK.
Then there's always the 'Belgrano' argument, that anything retreating could turn round...
Gadaffi is making it easy to convince even the most dove-ish that continued action is required.
Syria next! At least we'll be able to operate from AKR. Tip-top, number 1 base!
Then there's always the 'Belgrano' argument, that anything retreating could turn round...
Gadaffi is making it easy to convince even the most dove-ish that continued action is required.
Syria next! At least we'll be able to operate from AKR. Tip-top, number 1 base!
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The UN decided to look upon Libya as another "Arab Spring" popular uprising being put down by force. However was it? Unlike Egypt, there was insufficient leverage in the short term on the country's economy or it's armed forces to stop the threat of force or the actual fighting in Libya once it began.
Will Libya's armed forces decide to withdraw, be allowed to or to lay down their arms or switch sides under the impact of stand off and limited armed intervention? If not it could well be stalemate with civilians still under threat but now from both sides.
Belgrano? We were at war and as for Syria don't even go there! Not unless you think conflict throughout the Middle East is a good idea!
Will Libya's armed forces decide to withdraw, be allowed to or to lay down their arms or switch sides under the impact of stand off and limited armed intervention? If not it could well be stalemate with civilians still under threat but now from both sides.
Belgrano? We were at war and as for Syria don't even go there! Not unless you think conflict throughout the Middle East is a good idea!
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I don't think we should be discussion anything. This man and his regime committed the biggest act of mass murder on our soil, let alone the murder of WPC Yvonne Fletcher and the arms sales to the IRA. There is no debate, we have an almost free hand to topple him and his vile family and we should do it.
As for countries like Iran, Syria, Algeria, Venezuela, Cuba, Russia and China complaining. All these nations are run by murdering un democratic despots to a man, and its no wonder that thy don't want to see or even encourage another of their "own" being toppled. We have the chance to crack on and do whats right for the World, and that includes others like Zimbabwe.
The tide for democracy is gathering place all around this region, and we should do everything we can to encourage its progress and pace. Could you really stomach going on your holidays to Malta knowing that just over 100 miles away a regime is murdering its people with air power etc?
As for countries like Iran, Syria, Algeria, Venezuela, Cuba, Russia and China complaining. All these nations are run by murdering un democratic despots to a man, and its no wonder that thy don't want to see or even encourage another of their "own" being toppled. We have the chance to crack on and do whats right for the World, and that includes others like Zimbabwe.
The tide for democracy is gathering place all around this region, and we should do everything we can to encourage its progress and pace. Could you really stomach going on your holidays to Malta knowing that just over 100 miles away a regime is murdering its people with air power etc?
Draken, we weren't 'at war' in the Falklands, formally, just as we aren't now.
Tonker, calm down. There's a lot Gadaffi's done earlier that we did nothing about. There are a lot worse than Gadaffi, it's just that it isn't on Youtube.
And as Draken pointed out, we can't go sorting out everyone's problems. We don't have the troops, the money or, frankly, the interest.
Troops on the ground means dead soldiers; UK Citizens (and of course Nepal, Fiji, etc). Aircraft and boats lobbing clever rocks is always the preferred option in my view.
Cynicism aside, my concern is that politicians may be tying themselves in knots over their statements, since I believe the whole Middle East question is going to get messier, and it won't get sorted out fast. I think Dave is getting it right to use those 3 conditions, and make the action dependant on UN agreement, as we can always veto action in other countries. To avoid this getting UK political, I am pleased to see the whole parliament united on this one.
Tonker, calm down. There's a lot Gadaffi's done earlier that we did nothing about. There are a lot worse than Gadaffi, it's just that it isn't on Youtube.
And as Draken pointed out, we can't go sorting out everyone's problems. We don't have the troops, the money or, frankly, the interest.
Troops on the ground means dead soldiers; UK Citizens (and of course Nepal, Fiji, etc). Aircraft and boats lobbing clever rocks is always the preferred option in my view.
Cynicism aside, my concern is that politicians may be tying themselves in knots over their statements, since I believe the whole Middle East question is going to get messier, and it won't get sorted out fast. I think Dave is getting it right to use those 3 conditions, and make the action dependant on UN agreement, as we can always veto action in other countries. To avoid this getting UK political, I am pleased to see the whole parliament united on this one.
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My point was that our Armed Forces went South the remove their Armed Forces from UK Territory. A clear cut objective though some still like to argue the Belgrano and some other issues that emerged on the conduct of the Campaign.
As for Parliament, in 2003 MP' voted in favour of the war against Iraq. Some pretty similair reasons too. I assume that was your point
My point was that our Armed Forces went South the remove their Armed Forces from UK Territory. A clear cut objective though some still like to argue the Belgrano and some other issues that emerged on the conduct of the Campaign.
As for Parliament, in 2003 MP' voted in favour of the war against Iraq. Some pretty similair reasons too. I assume that was your point
Could you really stomach going on your holidays to Malta knowing that just over 100 miles
I expect the attack on any Gadaffi forces advancing is being justified on the grounds that they are currently bound to attack civilians also.
Tonker - don't get me wrong I'm all for getting rid of this maniac, however there are ways and means. Some half-baked, ill-considered and poorly supported enhanced NFZ isn't one of them, IMO.
Could you really stomach going on your holidays to Malta knowing that just over 100 miles
We have the chance to crack on and do whats right for the World
The key issue here is the protection of the Civilians his troops are/were killing via a NFZ. Like all battle plans it didn't survive first contact with the enemy, and now he isn't killing from the air, but from the ground. Thus we were cleaver enough to get a clause 'all necessary measures' in order for us to attack ground targets too.
but if we are successful in halting Gaddafi's ground forces, then what? If the rebels attack (as they surely will), and Gaddafis forces retaliate what happens then? Do we allow the rebels to kill other Libyans and remove Gaddafi from power? In which case did we not aid the removal of the leader by our resolution?
What if there's stalemate?
can't see an end here apart from a flipping mess. But maybe I'm wrong.
Your use of "Civilians" tells us how easy it is to get hoodwinked by the usual media and UN rhetorical foolishness.
Use of "Civilians" in this matter provides nothing useful for applying an RoE that makes any sense. It appears to me that a profound lack of thought has gone into this operation, to include the political assertions of just what is to be achieved by the use of arms. Behind all of the rhetoric and noise, it appears that "support anyone shooting at the Daffy One" is the political aim.
If I oppose The Daffy one, and wear jeans and a t shirt, and boots, and carry about an AK-47 with the intent to "fight the man" how am I a Civilian? At that point, I am a combatant. I am thus a target, depending upon who you are.
Your post would suggest that I am "a civilian" for your purposes. (Or did I misunderstand you? It is a very muddy topic ... )
Use of "Civilians" in this matter provides nothing useful for applying an RoE that makes any sense. It appears to me that a profound lack of thought has gone into this operation, to include the political assertions of just what is to be achieved by the use of arms. Behind all of the rhetoric and noise, it appears that "support anyone shooting at the Daffy One" is the political aim.
If I oppose The Daffy one, and wear jeans and a t shirt, and boots, and carry about an AK-47 with the intent to "fight the man" how am I a Civilian? At that point, I am a combatant. I am thus a target, depending upon who you are.
Your post would suggest that I am "a civilian" for your purposes. (Or did I misunderstand you? It is a very muddy topic ... )
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Ewan Whosearmy
First woman to fly Typhoon enforces no-fly-zone - Telegraph
In case you don't already have the answer!
First woman to fly Typhoon enforces no-fly-zone - Telegraph
In case you don't already have the answer!
Well, its already looking like a stalemate and de facto partition. Unless we do something dramatic Misrata will probably fall at some point in the next few weeks. The uprising in the west is unlikely to be re-kindled unless they can see the rebels on the horizon, and that ain't going to happen anytime soon. Of course, we could extend our already slippery definition of "all necessary measures" to include arming and training the rebels inthe east, but then many could justifiably argue that this is going way beyond our mandate, given that any rebel offensive will endanger any civilians who happen to be in the way.
And to think, this time last week this wasn't our problem. Oh, happy days.
And to think, this time last week this wasn't our problem. Oh, happy days.
Your use of "Civilians" tells us how easy it is to get hoodwinked by the usual media and UN rhetorical foolishness.
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"French fighter jets have shot down a Libyan warplane"
If true more than a little surprising given the confident message in the Forces favourite tabloid.
Brit Top Guns and allies toast destruction of Cnl Gaddafi’s air force | The Sun |News
If true more than a little surprising given the confident message in the Forces favourite tabloid.
Brit Top Guns and allies toast destruction of Cnl Gaddafi’s air force | The Sun |News
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
A Galeb - report by ABC News
Libyan strongman Moammar Gadhafi challenged the allies' no-fly zone for the first time today, sending up a warplane over the city of Misrata where it was quickly shot down by French fighter jets, a senior French military official said.
The plane launched by Gadhafi was a "galeb," a single-engine military aircraft.
Libyan strongman Moammar Gadhafi challenged the allies' no-fly zone for the first time today, sending up a warplane over the city of Misrata where it was quickly shot down by French fighter jets, a senior French military official said.
The plane launched by Gadhafi was a "galeb," a single-engine military aircraft.
"French fighter jets have shot down a Libyan warplane"
If true more than a little surprising given the confident message in the Forces favourite tabloid.
If true more than a little surprising given the confident message in the Forces favourite tabloid.
You've got to love the sombre erudite depth of the forces favourite tabloid.
FB
