Airtanker
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Turks and Cacos
Posts: 324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Standards for fitness must be maintained and just because the RAF spends 18 months training engineers they cannot set a precedent by keeping them in.
Can't imagine any unscrupulous people working a ticket like this can you?
The cost of getting these guys up to standard in the AAR role will be huge if they keep leaving for better paid jobs once they get peed off with the RAF BS.
I did ask (out of interest I'm not really considering the job) what the Ts and Cs are. The silence is ominous. I suspect Air Tanker are seeing who/how many apply before pitching the offer. This accountant driven policy will cost them in the long run.
I did ask (out of interest I'm not really considering the job) what the Ts and Cs are. The silence is ominous. I suspect Air Tanker are seeing who/how many apply before pitching the offer. This accountant driven policy will cost them in the long run.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In the Ether
Posts: 437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I suspect Air Tanker are seeing who/how many apply before pitching the offer
Who's going to apply for a job when all they really know is that they're signing up for MoD BS?
I'd wager that more would apply if even meagre Ts & Cs were laid out for all to see...
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: uk
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As an ex Tanker dude and an ex Mil QFI, current Airbus 330 TRI I called them to ask about the package. I basically received a "please apply through the usual channels" answer and all I wanted was a brief terms and conditions package briefing. On that note I asked them what was the application rate like and the answer was about 3 a day, but almost all from eastern European countries and was told that the majority of appplicants will not even be asked to interview due to non Airbus!
In the current role a civvy TRI will earn perhaps in the region of Group Captain to Air Commodore salary! Air Tanker have little hope of recruiting the right people unless they open up their secretive shroud around the package as it appears they don't want to advertise it in the event NO ONE will apply!
The next concern is that the most suitable applicants will be in their early to mid 40's and the 55 age limit to end the contract is a real negative for possible future employment elsewhere. Oh, and of course all of us fat civvy guys need to get to the gym to pass the bleep test (wasn't that one of the reason's I left?)
So I will be very interested to see if they are honest and advertise the package and if not, see what quality of applicants they get?
In the current role a civvy TRI will earn perhaps in the region of Group Captain to Air Commodore salary! Air Tanker have little hope of recruiting the right people unless they open up their secretive shroud around the package as it appears they don't want to advertise it in the event NO ONE will apply!
The next concern is that the most suitable applicants will be in their early to mid 40's and the 55 age limit to end the contract is a real negative for possible future employment elsewhere. Oh, and of course all of us fat civvy guys need to get to the gym to pass the bleep test (wasn't that one of the reason's I left?)
So I will be very interested to see if they are honest and advertise the package and if not, see what quality of applicants they get?
Not much in the way of job satisfaction either if all they can expect is 25 years of BZZ-ASI-MPA-ASI-BZZ. There's only so much Castle Lager the body can take, believe me, I have pushed the boundaries of human physiology in this respect. 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OTTB
"Pass the course, get the licence, fail the fitness test, get kicked out. Thanks & bye.
Standards for fitness must be maintained and just because the RAF spends 18 months training engineers they cannot set a precedent by keeping them in.
Can't imagine any unscrupulous people working a ticket like this can you?"
Well, that shows how long ago I left and how synical I have not yet become! I didnt think that way, but I suppose it will be done, by someone.
FYI a decent LAE with types is on £45K-£60K living in his own flat/house and driving a decent car with a steady bonk in tow.
He probably has share options, a decent pension, travel discounts and is able to plan his life for quite some months ahead. He possibly plays a decent game of Golf and/or goes to most of his teams matches. In his normal working day the most hassle he has is with security "staff" and their latest dreamed-up method of searching for nail clippers.
And you want to tempt him away from that ...with...erm, what?
Originally Posted by OTTB
"Pass the course, get the licence, fail the fitness test, get kicked out. Thanks & bye.
Standards for fitness must be maintained and just because the RAF spends 18 months training engineers they cannot set a precedent by keeping them in.
Can't imagine any unscrupulous people working a ticket like this can you?"
Well, that shows how long ago I left and how synical I have not yet become! I didnt think that way, but I suppose it will be done, by someone.
FYI a decent LAE with types is on £45K-£60K living in his own flat/house and driving a decent car with a steady bonk in tow.
He probably has share options, a decent pension, travel discounts and is able to plan his life for quite some months ahead. He possibly plays a decent game of Golf and/or goes to most of his teams matches. In his normal working day the most hassle he has is with security "staff" and their latest dreamed-up method of searching for nail clippers.
And you want to tempt him away from that ...with...erm, what?
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: hkg
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A fair bit of emphasis seems to have been attracted by the medical/fitness aspect.
If you are working for a civilian company, albeit contracted to the military, surely a JAA class1 suffices. Surely the whole point of civilian contracting to the military is to minimize admin, costs and military imposed constraints.
I think difficulty will arise in contractual terms. If there is a waiver where a contract of employment can be replaced at the behest of a Queen then there simply isn't any point in a contract at the first instance.
This gig, and little seems to be known about it, would have to attract large cash for A330 p1s nevermind the right ones amongst them.
If you are working for a civilian company, albeit contracted to the military, surely a JAA class1 suffices. Surely the whole point of civilian contracting to the military is to minimize admin, costs and military imposed constraints.
I think difficulty will arise in contractual terms. If there is a waiver where a contract of employment can be replaced at the behest of a Queen then there simply isn't any point in a contract at the first instance.
This gig, and little seems to be known about it, would have to attract large cash for A330 p1s nevermind the right ones amongst them.
Interestingly, I made all the above points to the FSTA IPT long before anyone was selected as preferred bidder....
I asked a few civil airline pilots; most asked about medical cover, life insurance excess when flying as a mercenary.....oops, sorry, 'sponsored reservist'
, loss of licence cover, pay and allowances. "£100K to get me out of my 747-400 to fly to the b£oody Falklands and live in a tip" was a typical answer some 10+ years ago.
I briefed the civil serpents about this, but it was news they didn't want to hear...
I asked a few civil airline pilots; most asked about medical cover, life insurance excess when flying as a mercenary.....oops, sorry, 'sponsored reservist'
, loss of licence cover, pay and allowances. "£100K to get me out of my 747-400 to fly to the b£oody Falklands and live in a tip" was a typical answer some 10+ years ago.I briefed the civil serpents about this, but it was news they didn't want to hear...
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: hkg
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Beagle,
This job and operation seems like a poorly thought out affair and maybe that's the intention. I suspect that this job has to be seen to be advertised.
It gets to Type rate a few RAF lads before they go civvy. They go onto a widebody in Thompson or Monarch as a DEC.
Then the RAF lads don't have to go to a mickey mouse small airline narrowbody operator when they enter civvy world.
This job and operation seems like a poorly thought out affair and maybe that's the intention. I suspect that this job has to be seen to be advertised.
It gets to Type rate a few RAF lads before they go civvy. They go onto a widebody in Thompson or Monarch as a DEC.
Then the RAF lads don't have to go to a mickey mouse small airline narrowbody operator when they enter civvy world.
Last edited by vikena; 19th Feb 2011 at 12:51.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FYI a decent LAE with types is on £45K-£60K living in his own flat/house and driving a decent car with a steady bonk in tow.
He probably has share options, a decent pension, travel discounts and is able to plan his life for quite some months ahead. He possibly plays a decent game of Golf and/or goes to most of his teams matches. In his normal working day the most hassle he has is with security "staff" and their latest dreamed-up method of searching for nail clippers.
And you want to tempt him away from that ...with...erm, what?
He probably has share options, a decent pension, travel discounts and is able to plan his life for quite some months ahead. He possibly plays a decent game of Golf and/or goes to most of his teams matches. In his normal working day the most hassle he has is with security "staff" and their latest dreamed-up method of searching for nail clippers.
And you want to tempt him away from that ...with...erm, what?
Worthy of note is the fact that the RAF recently put a load of guys through civil maintenance licence courses at great expense for the King Air project. On completion they then sent them out to industry for 12 months to get the required experience for type rating application. These individuals (who now have qualifications and experience that are transferrable to the civil sector) are currently leaving in their droves after working the return of service. FSTA will be no different and engineers and pilots will use it as a stepping stone to go onto bigger and better things.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Another S**thole
Age: 51
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All we'll get are under-par civil pilots who can't get a job elsewhere and will happily fly for Air Tanker until they have sufficient hours to bugger off back to the civil airline world.
RAF pilots will see this as an ATPL type rating oppurtunity and leave as soon as the civvie market picks up.
I see the FSTA (sorry, Voyager KC2/KC3) being undermanned by inexperienced Mil pilots and second-rate Civil pilots.
FRIs all round in 2014!
RAF pilots will see this as an ATPL type rating oppurtunity and leave as soon as the civvie market picks up.
I see the FSTA (sorry, Voyager KC2/KC3) being undermanned by inexperienced Mil pilots and second-rate Civil pilots.
FRIs all round in 2014!
Companies like SERCO have been paying low rates for years but still have managed to carry out their contracts. I remember Airworks paying peanuts but they still managed to recruit.
AirTanker may have to put up with a high turnover, but I'm sure that they will find takers for the jobs on offer.
Besides, with the RAF having hardly any aircraft left, they won't be visiting those nasty places that often, so maybe not that bad a life after all.
AirTanker may have to put up with a high turnover, but I'm sure that they will find takers for the jobs on offer.
Besides, with the RAF having hardly any aircraft left, they won't be visiting those nasty places that often, so maybe not that bad a life after all.
55 age limit to end the contract is a real negative for possible future employment elsewhere
Sainstman said:
"Companies like SERCO have been paying low rates for years but still have managed to carry out their contracts. I remember Airworks paying peanuts but they still managed to recruit.
AirTanker may have to put up with a high turnover, but I'm sure that they will find takers for the jobs on offer.
Besides, with the RAF having hardly any aircraft left, they won't be visiting those nasty places that often, so maybe not that bad a life after all."
SERCO don't do many civil market jobs though do they? I wonder why?
Airworks went bust in UK due to very poor standards (F3 rivet removals) That pair don't even get a look in for civil aviation standards. The saying about monkeys and peanuts comes to mind...
So - the RAF/AirTanker are prepared to lose their manpower through constantly training future LAE's? - Dream on...
EASA Regs state that at least 50% of the manpower must be permanent staff to maintain stability on type experience. You can't maintain stability by replacing all your staff over a couple of years. The CAA (and not the in-house maleable MAA) are used to that trick, believe me.
After two years the CAA could pull the AOC or 145 due to a lack of driver or mechanic stability.
Their findings will be based upon the phrase "Fix it or go bust".
Simples!
"Companies like SERCO have been paying low rates for years but still have managed to carry out their contracts. I remember Airworks paying peanuts but they still managed to recruit.
AirTanker may have to put up with a high turnover, but I'm sure that they will find takers for the jobs on offer.
Besides, with the RAF having hardly any aircraft left, they won't be visiting those nasty places that often, so maybe not that bad a life after all."
SERCO don't do many civil market jobs though do they? I wonder why?
Airworks went bust in UK due to very poor standards (F3 rivet removals) That pair don't even get a look in for civil aviation standards. The saying about monkeys and peanuts comes to mind...
So - the RAF/AirTanker are prepared to lose their manpower through constantly training future LAE's? - Dream on...
EASA Regs state that at least 50% of the manpower must be permanent staff to maintain stability on type experience. You can't maintain stability by replacing all your staff over a couple of years. The CAA (and not the in-house maleable MAA) are used to that trick, believe me.
After two years the CAA could pull the AOC or 145 due to a lack of driver or mechanic stability.
Their findings will be based upon the phrase "Fix it or go bust".
Simples!
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Iceland
Age: 60
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reading the AirTanker Diaries for the "RAF Engineers" it does raise a few questions.
So they have picked some Cpl/Sgts, sending them to COBC college for a Part66 Licence course, then 12months in Industry (A330, so BMI/ThomasCook/Virgin?), and then expect these guys to work on the Air Tanker fleet for Cpl/Sgts pay? (Whats that? £30k?).
Yet the other "LAEs" who are civvy reservists, are on £44k+shift+SR payment etc, doing exactly the same job in the same Hangar?
Can't see that going down too well? Your equals being on > £15k a year more.
Also, after 12months in industry 'networking', a B1/B2 licence and an A330 type rating....I can't see too many of those guys staying 'in' for a moment longer than they need to.
So they have picked some Cpl/Sgts, sending them to COBC college for a Part66 Licence course, then 12months in Industry (A330, so BMI/ThomasCook/Virgin?), and then expect these guys to work on the Air Tanker fleet for Cpl/Sgts pay? (Whats that? £30k?).
Yet the other "LAEs" who are civvy reservists, are on £44k+shift+SR payment etc, doing exactly the same job in the same Hangar?
Can't see that going down too well? Your equals being on > £15k a year more.
Also, after 12months in industry 'networking', a B1/B2 licence and an A330 type rating....I can't see too many of those guys staying 'in' for a moment longer than they need to.
...on the other hand...who says the civil aircraft will be UK registered?
The DCAA, DGAC, LBA, ENAC or even the "EU" register may come into play and they may be able to "accomodate" MAA/AirTanker needs more than the UK CAA might???
The DCAA, DGAC, LBA, ENAC or even the "EU" register may come into play and they may be able to "accomodate" MAA/AirTanker needs more than the UK CAA might???
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: hkg
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fair point Rigga,
The irish for example would licence any piece of crap a bit like panama for ships.
A paddy registered aircraft facilitating a british( american) war. It's all falling into place now.
Hehe
V
The irish for example would licence any piece of crap a bit like panama for ships.
A paddy registered aircraft facilitating a british( american) war. It's all falling into place now.
Hehe
V
Last edited by vikena; 20th Feb 2011 at 11:15.
This is a snowballing problem. Rumour mill reports that the lack of suitable candidates is causing some alarm, whilst ex-mil types involved are trying to recruit ex-muckers thereby turning it into a nepa-fest.