Airtanker
I'm a bit disappointed by some of the comments on this thread. What has happened to the ethos of pride in public service in Britain? Is everybody - even ex-mil - a total "me-first" mercenary these days?
I'm ex-Army, ex-Diplomatic service, and now a commercial pilot in the bizjet sector. I love flying, but miss the satisfaction of working in public service. I'd join Air Tanker in a flash if my qualifications were of interest to them but with no heavy jet experience, let alone A330 experience, I have no chance. Those of you who have the right qualifications should think yourself blessed with good fortune instead of moaning about the ts&cs.
I'm ex-Army, ex-Diplomatic service, and now a commercial pilot in the bizjet sector. I love flying, but miss the satisfaction of working in public service. I'd join Air Tanker in a flash if my qualifications were of interest to them but with no heavy jet experience, let alone A330 experience, I have no chance. Those of you who have the right qualifications should think yourself blessed with good fortune instead of moaning about the ts&cs.
TS - I really think you mean what you write, but, unless you are a devoted batchelor who has only just left the services, you should really think about that again...starting with basic Pros and Cons.
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There seems to be a general assumption by (presumably) serving members of the RAF on this forum that the general public owes them a living, and that the RAF should be allowed to spend public money ad nausea for the thinly justified existence of QRA and RAFAT.
I fully admit that I have a very different perspective from many of you on this forum. When I fly as a civilian pilot, every minute of our flights we are trying to save fuel by negotiating with controllers for short cuts, juggling winds and flight levels for best efficiency, taking visual approaches whenever possible to save a few minutes, and constantly calculating where it is cheapest to upload fuel. All that is motivated by trying to keep our jobs, to keep the company afloat, because of the taxes we pay! And where do those taxes go? I don't mind paying tax to support the old, the sick, the weak, and the defence of our country, particularly the latter as I am a TA volunteer.
I would just like to see the RAF take the same cuts as the RN and Army. RAFAT and air-defence (which are loosely linked) are disproportionately expensive. RAFAT in particular gives the impression that the RAF are not taking the current political and economical situation seriously - they write off £5m of my taxes attempting pointless stunts, burning more fuel in 20 mins than I save in a year of parsimonious flying (not to mention the raw diesel they into the atmosphere at the same time).
I fully support the RAF - but just give the funds to the hard-core front line guys - SH, RAF Reg, Medics, AT etc - and relegate the AD FJ and RAFAT to REMF status that they deserve.
I fully admit that I have a very different perspective from many of you on this forum. When I fly as a civilian pilot, every minute of our flights we are trying to save fuel by negotiating with controllers for short cuts, juggling winds and flight levels for best efficiency, taking visual approaches whenever possible to save a few minutes, and constantly calculating where it is cheapest to upload fuel. All that is motivated by trying to keep our jobs, to keep the company afloat, because of the taxes we pay! And where do those taxes go? I don't mind paying tax to support the old, the sick, the weak, and the defence of our country, particularly the latter as I am a TA volunteer.
I would just like to see the RAF take the same cuts as the RN and Army. RAFAT and air-defence (which are loosely linked) are disproportionately expensive. RAFAT in particular gives the impression that the RAF are not taking the current political and economical situation seriously - they write off £5m of my taxes attempting pointless stunts, burning more fuel in 20 mins than I save in a year of parsimonious flying (not to mention the raw diesel they into the atmosphere at the same time).
I fully support the RAF - but just give the funds to the hard-core front line guys - SH, RAF Reg, Medics, AT etc - and relegate the AD FJ and RAFAT to REMF status that they deserve.
Trimstab - seriously? You really want to join us with your views of the Air defence fast jet boys and girls as above? Change of heart?
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Trim Stab
I'm sorry old son, I think your spectacles have become alittle too rose-tinted. If you think that Air Tanker are in this for anything other than to make money, you're either very naive or a bit doo-lally. We've all done our bit for 20-odd years and have now moved on. Let's not confuse the admirable stance of the boys & girls in blue or green with the apparent desire to recruit airline pilots for the lowest possible remuneration. If the package were half decent, Air Tanker would declare it rather than all the 'you show me yours and I'll show you mine' malarky. To be honest, if the future work force have any nouse, they'll push for BALPA recognition in order to avoid being screwed in the future. (Not that it did the Virgin boys any good!!)
I'm sorry old son, I think your spectacles have become alittle too rose-tinted. If you think that Air Tanker are in this for anything other than to make money, you're either very naive or a bit doo-lally. We've all done our bit for 20-odd years and have now moved on. Let's not confuse the admirable stance of the boys & girls in blue or green with the apparent desire to recruit airline pilots for the lowest possible remuneration. If the package were half decent, Air Tanker would declare it rather than all the 'you show me yours and I'll show you mine' malarky. To be honest, if the future work force have any nouse, they'll push for BALPA recognition in order to avoid being screwed in the future. (Not that it did the Virgin boys any good!!)
Red On, Green On
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I have spent the last twenty years headhunting - not for pilots, but for guys earning the same or more in most cases, and my clients needed specific skills and experience which very often reduced the candidate base to single figures. The task was then to tease out who would move and what for. Budgets were not unlimited, but they were still generous.
The idea of not replying to emails, or telling someone to fill in an online application without revealing the ball-park compensation figure is staggering. If I got wind of a genuinely interested candidate I'd jump in a car or on a flight to go and meet them and attempt to get them to agree to meet my client.
Looking at 1. Must be an Airbus A330 Type Rating Instructor and Type Rating Examiner or have previous FSTA experience it's pretty clear that there won't be many who fit the professional requirements, and the citizenship/residency req., and will take on the sponsored reserve req etc. - and I can't imagine it's too hard to work out where these guys are, either, given the aircraft type, and thus who they are. Airtanker head sheds - if you are reading this, wake up and smell the coffee
The idea of not replying to emails, or telling someone to fill in an online application without revealing the ball-park compensation figure is staggering. If I got wind of a genuinely interested candidate I'd jump in a car or on a flight to go and meet them and attempt to get them to agree to meet my client.
Looking at 1. Must be an Airbus A330 Type Rating Instructor and Type Rating Examiner or have previous FSTA experience it's pretty clear that there won't be many who fit the professional requirements, and the citizenship/residency req., and will take on the sponsored reserve req etc. - and I can't imagine it's too hard to work out where these guys are, either, given the aircraft type, and thus who they are. Airtanker head sheds - if you are reading this, wake up and smell the coffee
Many years ago, I asked the 'other' consortium, TTSC, where they thought that their pilots and in particular, their instructors would come from.
The said that they considered that it wouldn't be any problem; however, I then told them the results of a few questions posed around various civil airline pilots. Typically, they said that to attract them away from ba or Virgin Atlantic would need significantly better Ts and Cs than their airlines offered, to compensate them for the dull routes and general military niff-naff. They were rather....surprised
And that was before the days of expecting their pilots to fly as mercenaries for a minimum of 27 days per year....
As airborne artist says, if you want to attract the best of the best, you won't do that by directing them to on-line application forms or by failing to reply to e-mails.
"No bucks, no Buck Rogers!"
The said that they considered that it wouldn't be any problem; however, I then told them the results of a few questions posed around various civil airline pilots. Typically, they said that to attract them away from ba or Virgin Atlantic would need significantly better Ts and Cs than their airlines offered, to compensate them for the dull routes and general military niff-naff. They were rather....surprised
And that was before the days of expecting their pilots to fly as mercenaries for a minimum of 27 days per year....
As airborne artist says, if you want to attract the best of the best, you won't do that by directing them to on-line application forms or by failing to reply to e-mails.
"No bucks, no Buck Rogers!"
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I am curious to find out what they mean by FSTA experience. Since a strict interpretation of that would only count the test pilots of Toulouse and Boscombe can they mean ex VC10 and Tristar pilots who have held squadron QFI, OCU or Staneval posts. If I was not so ancient and clapped out, could of had a chance then!
Red On, Green On
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What AirTanker don't seem to have considered is the cost of not getting the right person in post on time. Reckon it'd be a few bob more than the headhunter's fee and the salary to attract the right candidate.
''So it'll need to be about £150K plus free private medical cover, pension and 27 days' mercenary pay as an absolute minimum then?
Dream on...... ''
Forget the dreaming. It sounds roughly what a widebody TIRE will be earning on a contract with PARC or Risworth for one of the majors. And to attract the right calibre of candidate, this is what they should be considering ................. except of course they won't!
As for dreaming, also forget the starry eyed notion that people will want to do the job because of loyalty and love for the nation. Most of us gave up that idea when we left military service. And don't forget the employer for this job is Airtanker - not the RAF. Anything they save in wages will go to the company and not the defence budget!
Dream on...... ''
Forget the dreaming. It sounds roughly what a widebody TIRE will be earning on a contract with PARC or Risworth for one of the majors. And to attract the right calibre of candidate, this is what they should be considering ................. except of course they won't!
As for dreaming, also forget the starry eyed notion that people will want to do the job because of loyalty and love for the nation. Most of us gave up that idea when we left military service. And don't forget the employer for this job is Airtanker - not the RAF. Anything they save in wages will go to the company and not the defence budget!
Ah, but Dan, you didn't NB the deliberate ambiguity in my post.....
If that's what an A330 TRE can expect with a major, anyone expecting to lure him away with the prospect of routes to the sun-washed jewel of the South Atlantic, or the delights of the 5-star Block 101 in Cyprus or the equivalent in Afghanistan - with a minimum of a month's mercenary service (which presumably includes all the guns, gas and gym time to go with it..
) is indeed 'dreaming' if they think that £150K would be sufficient.
Of course things would be a lot different if the MoD had decided to acquire the A330MRTT conventionally. But at least the crews won't be working from dilapidated ex-WW2 buildings which should have been condemned 25 years ago!
If that's what an A330 TRE can expect with a major, anyone expecting to lure him away with the prospect of routes to the sun-washed jewel of the South Atlantic, or the delights of the 5-star Block 101 in Cyprus or the equivalent in Afghanistan - with a minimum of a month's mercenary service (which presumably includes all the guns, gas and gym time to go with it..
) is indeed 'dreaming' if they think that £150K would be sufficient.Of course things would be a lot different if the MoD had decided to acquire the A330MRTT conventionally. But at least the crews won't be working from dilapidated ex-WW2 buildings which should have been condemned 25 years ago!
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There is also the 'small' issue of passing the military aircrew medical, it seems that quite a few have not.
Anyone care to enlighten me as to the difference in standard between civil and military?
Anyone care to enlighten me as to the difference in standard between civil and military?
Certain medical conditions rule out RAF service. Applications will be rejected if you suffer or have suffered from asthma in the last four years. However, if you have been diagnosed previously as suffering from asthma but have remained symptom-free for a continuous four-year period, you may be considered for RAF ground service but not aircrew.
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I still think that one of the bigger disincentives to joining Airtanker as a pilot is their maximum age limit of 55 years.
Sponsored Reservists
I wonder what the Airtanker plan is for one of their Sponsored Reserve pilots when he/she gets to 55 years old? Do they get the push?
Sponsored Reservists
I wonder what the Airtanker plan is for one of their Sponsored Reserve pilots when he/she gets to 55 years old? Do they get the push?
Red On, Green On
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I can just hear the harrumphing when the TRE discovers this:
"As well as the potential to be deployed on operations, when working as a Sponsored Reservist you will be required to:
"As well as the potential to be deployed on operations, when working as a Sponsored Reservist you will be required to:
- wear military uniform
- be under military command
- be subject to the Service Discipline Act
- undertake additional duties (e.g. Guard)"
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Er, can they stipulate a maximum age limit of 55 years? Is that not illegal - after all, I now face years of languishing in the RHS as a result of the major carrier having to can compulsory retirement at 55!!
And still no word from ATr as to the 'package'....
And still no word from ATr as to the 'package'....
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I'm ex-Army, ex-Diplomatic service, and now a commercial pilot in the bizjet sector. I love flying, but miss the satisfaction of working in public service. I'd join Air Tanker in a flash if my qualifications were of interest to them but with no heavy jet experience, let alone A330 experience, I have no chance. Those of you who have the right qualifications should think yourself blessed with good fortune instead of moaning about the ts&cs.
At the very least, I would need my current package to be matched. In practice, given the "into harm's way" requirements, significantly more would be required. Widebody Training Captains in my outfit earn north of £140k basic, additional training pay, allowances and a FSS pension. In all seriousness, you would need to be paying getting on for £200k plus pension to get experienced Training Captains to cover the "harm's way" aspects. Not beyond the realms of possibility if they're really desperate but not especially likely IMHO. If I were a betting man, I'd say their requirement will change.
To quote BEagle (and others):
No bucks, no Buck Rogers.
Edit: Regarding "other duties", if this is an AOC operation then a FTL scheme will be required in which case, "duties at the behest of the operator" need to be taken into account when calculating FDPs.