Time to bin the Red Arrows
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I would love the Sparrows to stay, but; there aren't very many air shows nowadays compared with 15 years ago.It seemed that 15 years ago there was an air show most weekends of the summer at a military airfield.
Personally I miss the RAF Cottesmore TTTE Families day most with many a rare visiting aircraft, 2nd was RAF Mildenhall, for the ice cold beer from the paddling pools and also the BBQ burgers which I can still smell now, the flying was pretty entertaining as well.
As a UK taxpayer I second any proposal to keep the Reds, but.......
Personally I miss the RAF Cottesmore TTTE Families day most with many a rare visiting aircraft, 2nd was RAF Mildenhall, for the ice cold beer from the paddling pools and also the BBQ burgers which I can still smell now, the flying was pretty entertaining as well.
As a UK taxpayer I second any proposal to keep the Reds, but.......
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I would love the Sparrows to stay, but; there aren't very many air shows nowadays compared with 15 years ago.It seemed that 15 years ago there was an air show most weekends of the summer at a military airfield.
If RAF Leuchars goes than that's a regular Reds venue off the calendar.
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It's a lovely day, the sun is shining and we have had almost no snow - what more could you ask. Then I read this thread, RIAT is going to the dogs, not making money and the concensus seems without doubt to bin The Reds. I've attended all the Air Tattoos apart from last year when I went to Old Warden and Duxford and thought it far better value I have to admit. I've also enjoyed seeing The Reds over the years but accept many of the conclusions put forward here.
All a little depressing, I'm off to haul out the gin bottle.
All a little depressing, I'm off to haul out the gin bottle.
In a way, I'm pleased that some of the more celebrated posters have identified the misnomer in the 'charity' side of the airshow business. I had always suspected that the main beneficiaries of these so-called 'charity' occassions was never the people whom the charitys' aim was to help. That was amply confirmed when I had the mis-fortune to be stationed at a location where a major airshow was temporarily re-located for a couple of years.
I doubt the true cost to the public purse will ever be known, but an awful lot of public money was spent on "projects" and "urgent requirements", the cost of which should have been borne by the show's organiser. The number of times I was told to wind my neck in when I challenged many of the LPOs that were submitted went well into double figures and might even have made triple! It wasn't a good career move on my part but I wasn't prepared to put my signature to a falsehood and place myself in the same position that former elected representatives now find themselves.
That, coupled with the exhorbitant profligacy by the organisers who did not seem to adhere to the simple principle keeping their costs down, really showed who the beneficiaries of that charity really were. Was it really necessary to hire a fleet of brand-new, high performance cars to do the general running about on base? Was it really necessary for the very expensive corporate lunches and dinners? Was it really necessary to be accommodated in the best hotels, some many, many miles from the venue?
I was disgusted to see such waste and greed when it seemed that the main aim was to feather (quite) a few nests and encourage new levels of 'sucking-up'.
Back to topic. Much as the Reds provide an exciting and impressive display, I don't think that they are sustainable in their current form. The bean-counters rule the roost and it's "the cost of everything, value of nothing" brigade that will ultimately seal their fate. If money is to be saved, then the axe should fall on the work-shy (there's plent of snow to be cleared- give'em a shovel!) and stop paying benefits to young girls who see their mission in life as a single-handed attempt to re-populate the world!
I doubt the true cost to the public purse will ever be known, but an awful lot of public money was spent on "projects" and "urgent requirements", the cost of which should have been borne by the show's organiser. The number of times I was told to wind my neck in when I challenged many of the LPOs that were submitted went well into double figures and might even have made triple! It wasn't a good career move on my part but I wasn't prepared to put my signature to a falsehood and place myself in the same position that former elected representatives now find themselves.
That, coupled with the exhorbitant profligacy by the organisers who did not seem to adhere to the simple principle keeping their costs down, really showed who the beneficiaries of that charity really were. Was it really necessary to hire a fleet of brand-new, high performance cars to do the general running about on base? Was it really necessary for the very expensive corporate lunches and dinners? Was it really necessary to be accommodated in the best hotels, some many, many miles from the venue?
I was disgusted to see such waste and greed when it seemed that the main aim was to feather (quite) a few nests and encourage new levels of 'sucking-up'.
Back to topic. Much as the Reds provide an exciting and impressive display, I don't think that they are sustainable in their current form. The bean-counters rule the roost and it's "the cost of everything, value of nothing" brigade that will ultimately seal their fate. If money is to be saved, then the axe should fall on the work-shy (there's plent of snow to be cleared- give'em a shovel!) and stop paying benefits to young girls who see their mission in life as a single-handed attempt to re-populate the world!
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The Falcons are PJI's.
PJI's train the Para's
The Para's have a significant War Role in all Theatres.
The Red Arrows do not have a significant War Role in any Theatre.
PJI's train the Para's
The Para's have a significant War Role in all Theatres.
The Red Arrows do not have a significant War Role in any Theatre.
...and also the BBQ burgers which I can still smell now...
Enjoy!
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The Falcons are PJI's. PJI's train the Para's.The Para's have a significant War Role in all Theatres.The Red Arrows do not have a significant War Role in any Theatre.
These fast jet pilots have come from front line squadrons
These front line sqns have a significant war role in theatre
The Falcons do not have a war role in theatre
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And the last time the Paras were operationally dropped was?
Until it is decided that paras aren't needed then we should maintaint he ability to train them - that's commonsense. (which, amusingly, is often neither common nor sensible).
I take much more issue with the number of people on here claiming the Reds serve some recruiting function, when we are turning people away and looking to decimate the people already wearing the uniform. Smell the coffee, and so forth, we DO NOT NEED TO RECRUIT, so that's a complete non-starter.
Just for fun, and no doubt to foster much aggro, think how you'd answer these questions:
What percentage of the UK public in the 12-30 age range (approx) go to airshows.
What percentage of these people aren't already committed RAF-philes who would give their right arm to be an FJ pilot anyway?
How many of those who do not go to airshows ever see the Arrows live, and then go on to join the RAF?
Could we replace the Arrows, as a recruiting tool, by CGI'ing some inspiring stuff on Youtube - Spits shooting BF109's down while the theme from 633 Sqn plays in the background, etc. ?
- I'd argue that the Reds 'recruit' people who were already sold on the idea anyway, and that these people are a small part of a generally uninterested public who, reds or not, will never go near a CIO. In other words the Reds have no real effect on recruiting, even if we needed to recruit, which we clearly do not. So what is their actual purpose?
Reds should be completely sponsored by BAe, as they are the only people who gain anything from their performances.
Dave
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The Red Arrows
With all the comments/calls on here to dump/drop/disband the Red Arrows, one major point is being totally missed - the miserable and defeatist elements will have won because ..........
We will have nothing left that we can show
the world and be proud of any more.
We have a magnificent Army fighting its heart out in Afgan, despite the lack of support and funding that has gone on in political circles - but even they lost their Royal Tournament, in the name of political correctness. We have an emasculated Royal Navy that is only just hanging together and a Royal Airforce that can't really reduce any more without vanishing. In the current environment it's surprising
that our entire defence force has not been subcontracted out.
If a cause is needed to fight for, reduce the foreign Aid subsidiary by
50% and revitalise the Armed forces but still cut the MOD.
We will have nothing left that we can show
the world and be proud of any more.
We have a magnificent Army fighting its heart out in Afgan, despite the lack of support and funding that has gone on in political circles - but even they lost their Royal Tournament, in the name of political correctness. We have an emasculated Royal Navy that is only just hanging together and a Royal Airforce that can't really reduce any more without vanishing. In the current environment it's surprising
that our entire defence force has not been subcontracted out.
If a cause is needed to fight for, reduce the foreign Aid subsidiary by
50% and revitalise the Armed forces but still cut the MOD.
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No,
we're making the point that there is no sensible reason to do PR when we can't do the stuff the armed forces were created to do. The display teams help maintain the myth of our capability, they are counterproductive as far as the services go, in that they allow the general unwashed to think all is well when it clearly is not.
Sorry, but apart from keeping spotters happy and giving old f**ts a warm nostalgic glow I still can't see what purpose any of the display teams perform today - so maybe, just maybe, there's a 1/100 chance that if we actually pulled them all and said 'sorry, can't attend' some miniscule part of the public might realise the cuts have gone too far.
Apart from 'they are a great recruiting tool and help BAe sell to the Middle East', both of which would appear to be redundant functions, I have yet to see a single 'pro' post on here that suggests a valid role in 2010 for the Reds. We want them to continue because we're RAF or ex RAF, they've been the RAF display team since most of us joined, and we feel a great deal of affection for them... none of which constitutes a good reason to keep them going. The demise of the Hawk will, I imagine, settle the debate anyhow... perhaps by pulling them sooner than Dave would choose we might get a few more headlines that would allow the state of the Royal Defence Corps (Air company) to be publicised.
Dave (not THAT Dave)
we're making the point that there is no sensible reason to do PR when we can't do the stuff the armed forces were created to do. The display teams help maintain the myth of our capability, they are counterproductive as far as the services go, in that they allow the general unwashed to think all is well when it clearly is not.
Sorry, but apart from keeping spotters happy and giving old f**ts a warm nostalgic glow I still can't see what purpose any of the display teams perform today - so maybe, just maybe, there's a 1/100 chance that if we actually pulled them all and said 'sorry, can't attend' some miniscule part of the public might realise the cuts have gone too far.
Apart from 'they are a great recruiting tool and help BAe sell to the Middle East', both of which would appear to be redundant functions, I have yet to see a single 'pro' post on here that suggests a valid role in 2010 for the Reds. We want them to continue because we're RAF or ex RAF, they've been the RAF display team since most of us joined, and we feel a great deal of affection for them... none of which constitutes a good reason to keep them going. The demise of the Hawk will, I imagine, settle the debate anyhow... perhaps by pulling them sooner than Dave would choose we might get a few more headlines that would allow the state of the Royal Defence Corps (Air company) to be publicised.
Dave (not THAT Dave)
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DaveJB
OK Dave - lets just try National Pride - its worth fostering, if only to try and incalculate an element of respect for something in the younger generations. 
I grew up watching the reds-I've got a vague memory of watching gnats .I thought they'd be here for ever in one airframe or another.they should be considered part of our heritage by now .
The Reds and other teams around the world provide the great 'unwashed' and aviation enthusiasts alike a tangible link to the days of yore when stick and rudder was the order of the day. It is sheer skill that overcomes the elements, the precision reached using the brain, the eye and motor skills that will eventually die out in aviation to be replaced by automation and button pushing.
Lose them and its watching UAVs for the rest of your life.
Lose them and its watching UAVs for the rest of your life.
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When you read some of the posts on this thread you start to realise why the Royal Air Force (and the country for that matter) has gone down the tubes.
So many here with negative, half glass empty, defeatist, role over and kick me more, type attitudes. Those same people hide behind their armchairs and computer screens and blame the top leaders for not standing up to the politicians. Can’t you see that some of you are part of the problem? In fact many of you are the problem. No, I don’t think some of you will ever see that!!
What has happened to the Royal Air Force in recent times is absolutely criminal, but to loose Red Arrows is just total madness. Whether some of you like it or not, The Red Arrows are a unique identity in the face of the world of what the Royal Air Force and this Country is. To loose it, is the equivalent of removing your house name or number from your front door. It is like removing the Daffodil from Wales, the Rose from England, the thistle from Scotland and the Shamrock from Ireland.
It should be irrelevant how much it costs to run the Red Arrows and it should not matter how small the RAF becomes. (Lets face it; money saved would not be redirected to the frontline anyway!!).
Loose the Red Arrows and you loose a unique and world recognised symbol of all that was, and still is, great about this nation. Never forget that there is only ONE Royal Air Force in the world.
I stand ready for a barrage of incoming, but I will never bow down to defeatism.
So many here with negative, half glass empty, defeatist, role over and kick me more, type attitudes. Those same people hide behind their armchairs and computer screens and blame the top leaders for not standing up to the politicians. Can’t you see that some of you are part of the problem? In fact many of you are the problem. No, I don’t think some of you will ever see that!!
What has happened to the Royal Air Force in recent times is absolutely criminal, but to loose Red Arrows is just total madness. Whether some of you like it or not, The Red Arrows are a unique identity in the face of the world of what the Royal Air Force and this Country is. To loose it, is the equivalent of removing your house name or number from your front door. It is like removing the Daffodil from Wales, the Rose from England, the thistle from Scotland and the Shamrock from Ireland.
It should be irrelevant how much it costs to run the Red Arrows and it should not matter how small the RAF becomes. (Lets face it; money saved would not be redirected to the frontline anyway!!).
Loose the Red Arrows and you loose a unique and world recognised symbol of all that was, and still is, great about this nation. Never forget that there is only ONE Royal Air Force in the world.
I stand ready for a barrage of incoming, but I will never bow down to defeatism.
Last edited by SRENNAPS; 19th Dec 2010 at 08:04.
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SRENNAPS
You completely miss the point. We do not need a "Royal Air Display Force" - but we do need to ensure that the Military Budget primarily supports current Operational Commitments.
The Royal Navy has lost its Carriers - thus Air Defence for the Fleet becomes yet another task devolved to the RAF. As that was a cost cutting measure there is no extra funding for the extra task.
The UK is just about bankrupt - there is no money and the gold reserves were sold off years ago by Mr Brown at a rock bottom price.
HMG has already signalled UK withdrawal from Afghanistan and there will be further financial retrenchment (and doubtless redundancies) once that has happened.
SAR has effectively been "Privatised" and doubtless what remains of the Comms fleet will go the same way.
The purpose of the Royal Air Force is Defence of the Realm - not to provide entertainment for Air Display customers.
You completely miss the point. We do not need a "Royal Air Display Force" - but we do need to ensure that the Military Budget primarily supports current Operational Commitments.
The Royal Navy has lost its Carriers - thus Air Defence for the Fleet becomes yet another task devolved to the RAF. As that was a cost cutting measure there is no extra funding for the extra task.
The UK is just about bankrupt - there is no money and the gold reserves were sold off years ago by Mr Brown at a rock bottom price.
HMG has already signalled UK withdrawal from Afghanistan and there will be further financial retrenchment (and doubtless redundancies) once that has happened.
SAR has effectively been "Privatised" and doubtless what remains of the Comms fleet will go the same way.
The purpose of the Royal Air Force is Defence of the Realm - not to provide entertainment for Air Display customers.
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Absolutely bang on target!!!
If the reds went then we would see NO benefit at all. It is the attitude 'scrap them so everyone will see how bad it is' that is maddening. It will change nothing and just deprive those who will notice, the ones going to the shows, of enjoying a great spectacle. This kind of attitude has made this country what it is, 'poor us we can't, shouldn't do anything any more'! We can do it if we want but our defeatist attitude conquers all. Why not think that at least we still have something to show the world!!! Oh and by the way whilst BAE may not be the best it is providing more high tech engineering jobs for THIS country than any other, yes I said THIS country. Or would those complaining about free ad for the Hawk prefer that we fold up that success story and let another country take the orders and jobs as well.
Remember they are there for the enjoyment of our most vital supporters, the general public and they are worth every penny! Some thing are worth paying for!
If the reds went then we would see NO benefit at all. It is the attitude 'scrap them so everyone will see how bad it is' that is maddening. It will change nothing and just deprive those who will notice, the ones going to the shows, of enjoying a great spectacle. This kind of attitude has made this country what it is, 'poor us we can't, shouldn't do anything any more'! We can do it if we want but our defeatist attitude conquers all. Why not think that at least we still have something to show the world!!! Oh and by the way whilst BAE may not be the best it is providing more high tech engineering jobs for THIS country than any other, yes I said THIS country. Or would those complaining about free ad for the Hawk prefer that we fold up that success story and let another country take the orders and jobs as well.
Remember they are there for the enjoyment of our most vital supporters, the general public and they are worth every penny! Some thing are worth paying for!