Time to bin the Red Arrows
Airpol'
How many horses are stabled, that don't belong to the Army.......etc etc.
Maybe the ac that don't belong to the MOD/RAF (private/club ac), which are taking a great deal of hangar space at various stations should be charged a more realistic price for the privilege. Moreover, when they are having subsidized fuel into the bargain, maybe a percentage of the fees should be taken and given to fund the Reds/BBMF etc.
Example: The old 'Reds' hangar at RAFC. Astounding that I had to seek out the Flying Club OIC (non-mil) to ask to move his ac, so an 'Op' Sqn could park one of theirs!!!!! Priorities
That said, I did hear that the cost of the new hangar at RAF W for the reds was astronomical i.e. 10mil plus. Why not move them back into RAFC where their original hangar ( the one now occupied by said flying club) could be made available, or is that too easy? Don't go into the airspace issues, very shortly there will be very few ac flying around RAFC!!!!!!
Just a few thoughts........
How many horses are stabled, that don't belong to the Army.......etc etc.
Maybe the ac that don't belong to the MOD/RAF (private/club ac), which are taking a great deal of hangar space at various stations should be charged a more realistic price for the privilege. Moreover, when they are having subsidized fuel into the bargain, maybe a percentage of the fees should be taken and given to fund the Reds/BBMF etc.
Example: The old 'Reds' hangar at RAFC. Astounding that I had to seek out the Flying Club OIC (non-mil) to ask to move his ac, so an 'Op' Sqn could park one of theirs!!!!! Priorities
That said, I did hear that the cost of the new hangar at RAF W for the reds was astronomical i.e. 10mil plus. Why not move them back into RAFC where their original hangar ( the one now occupied by said flying club) could be made available, or is that too easy? Don't go into the airspace issues, very shortly there will be very few ac flying around RAFC!!!!!!
Just a few thoughts........
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I suspect that the horses designated as stabled by the Army but not belonging to them could include some officers' chargers privately owned but used for military ceremonial and the odd stallion and brood mare passing through for equine nooky.
Unless one of them is descended from Pegasus I fail to see what this fascinating divergence from the original thread has to do with military aviation!
Unless one of them is descended from Pegasus I fail to see what this fascinating divergence from the original thread has to do with military aviation!
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Could be,
I must declare a potential conflict of interest there. I have, to a great extent, benefitted from just such an arrangement.
I may however, quite easily be prepared to "see the light" and publicly condem such "benefit in kind" that comes from being a member of one the RAF Flying Clubs.
There are real benefits to the servioe of having the clubs and they don't cost much, but it seems wrong that they should get priority over operational issues. I've not seen any evidence of that happening, and I would notice it, but it may well be going on.
Perhaps someone else might like to chip in here..........
I must declare a potential conflict of interest there. I have, to a great extent, benefitted from just such an arrangement.
I may however, quite easily be prepared to "see the light" and publicly condem such "benefit in kind" that comes from being a member of one the RAF Flying Clubs.
There are real benefits to the servioe of having the clubs and they don't cost much, but it seems wrong that they should get priority over operational issues. I've not seen any evidence of that happening, and I would notice it, but it may well be going on.
Perhaps someone else might like to chip in here..........
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Caz, the man gets about, but I don't see any evidence of him ever having had a proper job or doing any kind of military service. Pich of salt and all that.
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SRENNAPS
There was no need to ask such a question - Mr Brown had not, at that stage, been let loose to create havoc with the nations finances. You do remember his Mantra don't you?
"A Pound spent on Defence is a Pound wasted."
Do pay Attention!!
There was no need to ask such a question - Mr Brown had not, at that stage, been let loose to create havoc with the nations finances. You do remember his Mantra don't you?
"A Pound spent on Defence is a Pound wasted."
Do pay Attention!!
Could be the last?, Service Flying Clubs most assuredly do NOT get priority over any Service need - neither do they receive 'subsidised fuel'. No Service resources (e.g. empty hangars) may be used unless they're not being used for anything else. The rules governing navigation, landing, parking and housing fees are very specific, so there should be no 'free loaders' these days.
We used to have to move our aircraft out of the Air Movs hangar every time the aux movers needed to conduct any training -which was a complete pain. So we managed to buy an old canvas hangar.
One of our civilian members (who did subsidise servicemen's flying) once tripped over when pulling an aeroplane out of the hangar and clouted himself on the door anchor. So we asked the RAF trauma truck to take a look at him...."You're a civilian, 'smorethanmyjobsworth" was the helpful comment.
We used to have to move our aircraft out of the Air Movs hangar every time the aux movers needed to conduct any training -which was a complete pain. So we managed to buy an old canvas hangar.
One of our civilian members (who did subsidise servicemen's flying) once tripped over when pulling an aeroplane out of the hangar and clouted himself on the door anchor. So we asked the RAF trauma truck to take a look at him...."You're a civilian, 'smorethanmyjobsworth" was the helpful comment.
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glad rag
In its correct context Neville Chamberlain's statement "I believe it is Peace in our Time" was accurate from his viewpoint. That viewpoint was far removed from reality and that quotation haunted him until his demise.
In its correct context Neville Chamberlain's statement "I believe it is Peace in our Time" was accurate from his viewpoint. That viewpoint was far removed from reality and that quotation haunted him until his demise.
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Caz Hi.
He was on about the waste in Procurment, I think we can agree on both that and the fact that I ain't defending him or his parties destructive reign.
GR
He was on about the waste in Procurment, I think we can agree on both that and the fact that I ain't defending him or his parties destructive reign.
GR
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Beagle, perhaps "subsidised" is not the best word there. With your knowledge of such things, can you explain the "Entitled" bit that we put on the voucher when we sign for fuel. Is that not in order to get a better rate?
As for landing fees, you quite rightly state that the rules are clear, but you fail to mention ( for the benefit of those not familiar with the system ) that the clubs do not pay any landing fees or hangar charges for club aircraft or aircraft owned by club members.
This makes flying at an RAF club substantially cheaper than the civvy airfield a few miles down the road. In some cases, half the price of doing so.
For retired service people with their own aircraft, this can make it viable, or even attractive as opposed to it being out of the question on cost grounds.
I would just like to add that having a busy flying club on a station can help to keep some units in current practice. With the reduction in operational flying, there can be days where the only action that ATC get to deal with is the flying club.
It would be a shame if the facilities afforded to the clubs were to be withdrawn, but if they were taking money away from front line work (which they are not) then nobody would be able to argue the point.
As I see it, the RAFFCA setup is worth the money, but I suppose the Reds say that about their bit, as will everyone else.
As for landing fees, you quite rightly state that the rules are clear, but you fail to mention ( for the benefit of those not familiar with the system ) that the clubs do not pay any landing fees or hangar charges for club aircraft or aircraft owned by club members.
This makes flying at an RAF club substantially cheaper than the civvy airfield a few miles down the road. In some cases, half the price of doing so.
For retired service people with their own aircraft, this can make it viable, or even attractive as opposed to it being out of the question on cost grounds.
I would just like to add that having a busy flying club on a station can help to keep some units in current practice. With the reduction in operational flying, there can be days where the only action that ATC get to deal with is the flying club.
It would be a shame if the facilities afforded to the clubs were to be withdrawn, but if they were taking money away from front line work (which they are not) then nobody would be able to argue the point.
As I see it, the RAFFCA setup is worth the money, but I suppose the Reds say that about their bit, as will everyone else.
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airpolice
Are you bonkers??
If what you say is correct, and you guys are able to benefit from some little 'perk' that is available to current and ex service members, then why are you effectively offering it up on here?? Before you know it, the next thing that will happen is that you will have the journos telling Dr Fox that you are getting 'free' hangarage, 'free' landing fees et al and it will stop.
Just because it might be cheaper than the local flying club is probably because it isn't being run as a commercial business, and it doesn't need to make money.
I think it's great that some stations can offer such facilities. It must be one of the few things left I would think, in this ever-dwindling, cost-cutting Air Force thati is open to all, even ex servicemen.
For Christs sake man, keep quiet about such things, unless you want to loose them that is.
Are you bonkers??
If what you say is correct, and you guys are able to benefit from some little 'perk' that is available to current and ex service members, then why are you effectively offering it up on here?? Before you know it, the next thing that will happen is that you will have the journos telling Dr Fox that you are getting 'free' hangarage, 'free' landing fees et al and it will stop.
Just because it might be cheaper than the local flying club is probably because it isn't being run as a commercial business, and it doesn't need to make money.
I think it's great that some stations can offer such facilities. It must be one of the few things left I would think, in this ever-dwindling, cost-cutting Air Force thati is open to all, even ex servicemen.
For Christs sake man, keep quiet about such things, unless you want to loose them that is.
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Bonkers
Yes. Aipolice is Bonkers. Read some of his old posts. Complains that a serving individual going through a gender change does not have a grip on reality. Talk about people in glass houses!!!!!! I wouldn't trust him to make me a nato standard nevermind share a foxhole. Threw His toys from His pram on more than one occasion. How about sharing Your tales of going AWOL more than once. Come on Airpolice, spill the beans. Keep the Faith! Never crossed his mind.
too late by far
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"Caz, the man gets about, but I don't see any evidence of him ever having had a proper job or doing any kind of military service. Pich of salt and all that."
Airpolice, I must disagree.
Professor Eric Grove was my tutor when I was a student (Acting Sub-lieutenant) at BRNC Dartmouth in 1978. He was a civilian and, as far as I know, always has been. He inspired me to work hard to achieve a good mark in my Naval History exams (pity I couldn't do the same when I tried aviating!) and, as he was also a Great Western Railway enthusiast, the chap could do no wrong in my view!
Airpolice, I must disagree.
Professor Eric Grove was my tutor when I was a student (Acting Sub-lieutenant) at BRNC Dartmouth in 1978. He was a civilian and, as far as I know, always has been. He inspired me to work hard to achieve a good mark in my Naval History exams (pity I couldn't do the same when I tried aviating!) and, as he was also a Great Western Railway enthusiast, the chap could do no wrong in my view!
Went missing for 8 Days in 1977, found at home, returned via the Leuchars guardroom at the weekend and back to work on the Monday morning.
airpolice -- You might have been my guest when I was O/Cpl. Brought in by one of the local P&SS heavies and released by the Orderly Officer "without prejudice to re-arrest" on the Sunday night??
Thread creep - 'off'
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Flying Club OIC (non-mil)
RAFFCA is in principle no different to e.g. The Order of the Buffalo (or whatever) having a spare building in Wiltshire, or a squadron taking over a spare hut for a bar. If the buildings were needed for military purposes they would of course have to be given back - as half of our hangar was (indeed, all of it for a time, and the aircraft were turned out on the grass). The other resources used - ATC, taxiways, runways - are there anyway and our impact on them is negligible, and we are lowest priority traffic and often have to wait out to get out of the way of rightfully more important traffic (e.g. the civilian police or Air Ambulance helicopters also based there).
Tim
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Ted, by "proper Job" I meant earning a living in a commercial environment, not just getting by on what the taxpayers contribute.
He's still not explained the three thousand horses bit.
He's still not explained the three thousand horses bit.
We will have nothing left that we can show
the world and be proud of any more.
We have bands 'an trumpets 'an ceremony 'an drums 'an beating the retreat 'an other pompous
rubbish.Sing after me - "...there'll always be a trumpet, there'll always be a drum....."
To the tune of Britain never never will be some kind of
......
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Airpolice. Oh I see. Well you won't want to know me then, I haven't done a proper job either, 32 years in the Military and now an MOD Civil Servant. I've enjoyed it all. Happy New Year!