Time to bin the Red Arrows
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Airpolice,
No Sir, I believe you are wrong. The money saved will NOT go to the front line or even stay within the MOD. It will be a saving FROM the MOD budget, not something that will be re-distributed elsewhere within the RAF. If you have proof that the money saved will go to the front line, then I might feel different, but you will not have such proof and I have no doubts whatsoever that it will NOT stay with the RAF or even the MOD budget.
I don't know where you get your figures from re Airshows, but certainly Waddo must have made some significant money this year, as the gates were closed I understand on both days. RIAT was sold out well before the show as it is an all ticket event. The proceeds from these events are then distributed to the service charities (not an insignificant sum) So which airshows are you refering too?
There may well be a new RAF in the making, (I can't see it myself) but that is not a reason to bin the better elements of the old one we still have is it? What's next for you, get rid of BBMF maybe so we can buy some new boots for the guys and girls in 'stan? or do you think that will be another line in the sand?
BEagle is right, you are all a defeatist bunch. Don't give up - stand and fight.
No Sir, I believe you are wrong. The money saved will NOT go to the front line or even stay within the MOD. It will be a saving FROM the MOD budget, not something that will be re-distributed elsewhere within the RAF. If you have proof that the money saved will go to the front line, then I might feel different, but you will not have such proof and I have no doubts whatsoever that it will NOT stay with the RAF or even the MOD budget.
I don't know where you get your figures from re Airshows, but certainly Waddo must have made some significant money this year, as the gates were closed I understand on both days. RIAT was sold out well before the show as it is an all ticket event. The proceeds from these events are then distributed to the service charities (not an insignificant sum) So which airshows are you refering too?
There may well be a new RAF in the making, (I can't see it myself) but that is not a reason to bin the better elements of the old one we still have is it? What's next for you, get rid of BBMF maybe so we can buy some new boots for the guys and girls in 'stan? or do you think that will be another line in the sand?
BEagle is right, you are all a defeatist bunch. Don't give up - stand and fight.
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Q-RTF-X
I would totally agree with you if we lived in an ideal world where sufficient Public Finance was available to fund all the activities deemed necessary by the Armed Forces. History tells us, however, that such funding is only made available following the onset of hostilities. The RAF I joined as a trainee Pilot in 1965 had a Far East Air Force, Middle East Air Force, Near East Air Force and RAF Germany (in addition to Home Commands) and it maintained 6 Basic Flying Training Schools to produce a steady supply of Pilots.
Those days are long gone and the UK is in hock up to its eyeballs. The current conflict in a part of the World that several previous generations of British Service Personnel learnt to detest is but the latest episode in a conflict of Cultures for which there is no practical solution. I just hope that those in Command are aware of what happened when a British Force had to retreat from Kabul in the 19th Century - there was one survivor (Surgeon Reynolds).
One must also remember that HMG Policy is that the UK does not become part of the Eurozone but retains the Pound Sterling. This means that the UK is liable to suffer currency fluctuations on a greater scale than other EU members because the "strength in numbers" is not there. Before the Eurozone had even been thought of the Pound Sterling was the Currency of Empire and the US Dollar/ Pound exchange rate was 2:40 dollars to the Pound. As there were 240 pennies to the pound that meant 1 penny was the same value as 1 cent.
Apart from a few Overseas Territories the Commonwealth Countries all have their own currencies these days so the value of Sterling is determined by the actions of HMG as the underlying asset values of the Commonwealth no longer bolster the value of the Pound sterling.
If UK PLC was a private Bank Customer it would already have been invited to a one sided interview with the Bank Manager, had its credit cards withdrawn and its overdraft facility cancelled.
I would totally agree with you if we lived in an ideal world where sufficient Public Finance was available to fund all the activities deemed necessary by the Armed Forces. History tells us, however, that such funding is only made available following the onset of hostilities. The RAF I joined as a trainee Pilot in 1965 had a Far East Air Force, Middle East Air Force, Near East Air Force and RAF Germany (in addition to Home Commands) and it maintained 6 Basic Flying Training Schools to produce a steady supply of Pilots.
Those days are long gone and the UK is in hock up to its eyeballs. The current conflict in a part of the World that several previous generations of British Service Personnel learnt to detest is but the latest episode in a conflict of Cultures for which there is no practical solution. I just hope that those in Command are aware of what happened when a British Force had to retreat from Kabul in the 19th Century - there was one survivor (Surgeon Reynolds).
One must also remember that HMG Policy is that the UK does not become part of the Eurozone but retains the Pound Sterling. This means that the UK is liable to suffer currency fluctuations on a greater scale than other EU members because the "strength in numbers" is not there. Before the Eurozone had even been thought of the Pound Sterling was the Currency of Empire and the US Dollar/ Pound exchange rate was 2:40 dollars to the Pound. As there were 240 pennies to the pound that meant 1 penny was the same value as 1 cent.
Apart from a few Overseas Territories the Commonwealth Countries all have their own currencies these days so the value of Sterling is determined by the actions of HMG as the underlying asset values of the Commonwealth no longer bolster the value of the Pound sterling.
If UK PLC was a private Bank Customer it would already have been invited to a one sided interview with the Bank Manager, had its credit cards withdrawn and its overdraft facility cancelled.
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I hate to say it but I think it is time. Yes, I see what Beags and Co are getting at, but to keep the Reds going at such a time would indeed be tantamount to deception that all is well when it is evident to all that it is not.
One last season then thats it. One can only hope that enough of the great unwashed give a t*ss. Chances are, almost certainly not though and it may in the end prove to be the hollow gesture that HMY was.
Winco, maybe it is defeatist. But what else do we have left to fight with when those who were meant to be our leaders of the last 15 years sold their backbones for their goldplated pensions with nary a whimper? Stand and fight? For them? After what they have done? Sorry, cant do it.
One last season then thats it. One can only hope that enough of the great unwashed give a t*ss. Chances are, almost certainly not though and it may in the end prove to be the hollow gesture that HMY was.
Winco, maybe it is defeatist. But what else do we have left to fight with when those who were meant to be our leaders of the last 15 years sold their backbones for their goldplated pensions with nary a whimper? Stand and fight? For them? After what they have done? Sorry, cant do it.
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To disband the Reds because of the current financial situation would be a futile, peevish and meaningless gesture, would bring no benefit to the Defence budget and would make our already greying nation even more colourless. They are a national asset, not an RAF toy to be chucked away as a gesture. They cost the Defence budget peanuts, are a rare source of genuine pride and a symbol of excellence which this country and its Armed Services needs more than ever in these dismal times.
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"If UK PLC was a private Bank Customer it would already have been invited to a one sided interview with the Bank Manager, had its credit cards withdrawn and its overdraft facility cancelled."
However, as were not, the Bank Manager (whoever he/she is) instead seems happy for us to lend £ 7 Billion (that we don't seem to have in the first place) to support to EU friends in need
However, as were not, the Bank Manager (whoever he/she is) instead seems happy for us to lend £ 7 Billion (that we don't seem to have in the first place) to support to EU friends in need
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Beagle, Sir, it's rare that I find cause to disagree with you but the point I am trying to put across is far from defeatist. On the contrary, it is a counter attack by other means to the current political assault on the Air Force. In spirit, I agree with you and Winco to name but 2. I do find, though, that the financial argument of cazatou does qualify as "defeatist". My argument is not financial.
The Reds are the finest the World has and the benefit in Service morale, public awareness, national pride and promotion of British industrial capability is out of all proportion to the tiny element of the Defence Budget absorbed. So tiny that a MoD beancounter would identify it as "noise". Leaving aside how disbandment would affect the "great unwashed", it is the effect it would have on the parasites that infest Westminster and Whitehall. They would probably have to admit that they have reduced the 3 independent Services to the level of a "self defence" force.
Imagine the President of Bongoland asking His Excellency the British Ambassador "what's happened to the Red Arrows"? His Excellency then asking the FCO Sec who in turn asks the Def Sec to be told; "our Forces are now so pared to the bone we have no capacity to field a team to an acceptable standard". How would the Def Sec, FCO Sec and the PM like that? Answers on a Navy Form S118B please. Yes, it would be peevish but it seems that is the only language such people understand. Talk to them of Capability and Skill Fade and watch the glazed expression.
The Red Arrows are an impeccable and professional display in the British Armed Forces' (it's only a matter of time; BAF) shop window. The genuine worry is that the shop shelves behind are all but bare; and, yes, the cost of the window display would buy sod all stock.
Now, does the Arrows and any war canoe called ARK ROYAL give the workers and Benefit scroungers of UK PLC the fortitude and spirit to pull their weight and work us out of Poo Creek? That is a whole new argument.
The Reds are the finest the World has and the benefit in Service morale, public awareness, national pride and promotion of British industrial capability is out of all proportion to the tiny element of the Defence Budget absorbed. So tiny that a MoD beancounter would identify it as "noise". Leaving aside how disbandment would affect the "great unwashed", it is the effect it would have on the parasites that infest Westminster and Whitehall. They would probably have to admit that they have reduced the 3 independent Services to the level of a "self defence" force.
Imagine the President of Bongoland asking His Excellency the British Ambassador "what's happened to the Red Arrows"? His Excellency then asking the FCO Sec who in turn asks the Def Sec to be told; "our Forces are now so pared to the bone we have no capacity to field a team to an acceptable standard". How would the Def Sec, FCO Sec and the PM like that? Answers on a Navy Form S118B please. Yes, it would be peevish but it seems that is the only language such people understand. Talk to them of Capability and Skill Fade and watch the glazed expression.
The Red Arrows are an impeccable and professional display in the British Armed Forces' (it's only a matter of time; BAF) shop window. The genuine worry is that the shop shelves behind are all but bare; and, yes, the cost of the window display would buy sod all stock.
Now, does the Arrows and any war canoe called ARK ROYAL give the workers and Benefit scroungers of UK PLC the fortitude and spirit to pull their weight and work us out of Poo Creek? That is a whole new argument.
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It's not about being "defeatist." It is trying to draw that "line in the sand" to make HM Government realise they have already gone too far! I still love watching the Reds as much as anyone.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I fear that one-day we are going to need a strong Armed Forces again and we will be very badly placed to deal with anything.
OK, so now roll on to the next Defence Spending Review, What are they going to cut next time round.. Things must still be OK. "Look they've still got those Red Arrows displaying up and down the country." I'm sure we can make do with cutting a little further all-round.
BEagle, What would you offer up to cut next time? Not the Reds then!
When the truth is really, that the Country needs to actually Re-arm and not cut further!
What is the point of building two aircraft carriers and not having any fixed-wing aircraft to put on them?
Why bin Nimrods we have already paid for? Make Baes deliver them!
Why scrap Harriers that could be used on the New Carriers before F-35 arrives.
I know the Country is financially embarrassed these days but, there are plenty of areas where savings can be made without cutting fundamental capabilities.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I fear that one-day we are going to need a strong Armed Forces again and we will be very badly placed to deal with anything.
OK, so now roll on to the next Defence Spending Review, What are they going to cut next time round.. Things must still be OK. "Look they've still got those Red Arrows displaying up and down the country." I'm sure we can make do with cutting a little further all-round.
BEagle, What would you offer up to cut next time? Not the Reds then!
When the truth is really, that the Country needs to actually Re-arm and not cut further!
What is the point of building two aircraft carriers and not having any fixed-wing aircraft to put on them?
Why bin Nimrods we have already paid for? Make Baes deliver them!
Why scrap Harriers that could be used on the New Carriers before F-35 arrives.
I know the Country is financially embarrassed these days but, there are plenty of areas where savings can be made without cutting fundamental capabilities.
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Jabba, no need for one last dance. End of season....end of story.
The great unwashed, and everyone in a blue suit as well, have no hope of having any influence on HMG. They will do what suits them and unless we vote in the BNP or a Muslim Government, they will continue to do so.
I'm not convinced that showing the public how tight things are for the Military will help anyone. However, showing the public we can take the cuts like they have to, and showing the troops that there are no wasted quids will surely help to get things back on an even keel.
In short, nobody who matters cares if the Reds get binned.
However those who serve do care if the Reds continue to be funded from a pot which the rest of us are being told is empty.
Beagle, why not ask the people at ISK who are in fear of losing their jobs if the Reds are so important to the nation? Hardly an objective viewpoint but like the freshly binned Harrier people, nobody suffering cuts wants to see other people being spared.
On the other hand, maybe we should keep the Red Arrows and leave it at that. They can fly from Finningl...sorry Robin Hood Airport and use the rear seats to train their own replacements. Helicopters to the Army & RN with all the airfields sold off, the Reds might be all that the RAF has after another ten years of this.
The great unwashed, and everyone in a blue suit as well, have no hope of having any influence on HMG. They will do what suits them and unless we vote in the BNP or a Muslim Government, they will continue to do so.
I'm not convinced that showing the public how tight things are for the Military will help anyone. However, showing the public we can take the cuts like they have to, and showing the troops that there are no wasted quids will surely help to get things back on an even keel.
In short, nobody who matters cares if the Reds get binned.
However those who serve do care if the Reds continue to be funded from a pot which the rest of us are being told is empty.
Beagle, why not ask the people at ISK who are in fear of losing their jobs if the Reds are so important to the nation? Hardly an objective viewpoint but like the freshly binned Harrier people, nobody suffering cuts wants to see other people being spared.
On the other hand, maybe we should keep the Red Arrows and leave it at that. They can fly from Finningl...sorry Robin Hood Airport and use the rear seats to train their own replacements. Helicopters to the Army & RN with all the airfields sold off, the Reds might be all that the RAF has after another ten years of this.
As our armed forces are slashed yet again and more combat-capable aircraft and their pilots are deleted from the ORBAT, isn't it incongruous to retain the Red Arrows as a proud symbol of our national prowess?
I concede that the Reds are iconic. Maybe their disbandment will bring home to the GBP just how severely Defence is being affected by SDSR. Otherwise, it all looks too much like 'business as normal'.
I concede that the Reds are iconic. Maybe their disbandment will bring home to the GBP just how severely Defence is being affected by SDSR. Otherwise, it all looks too much like 'business as normal'.
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Facts and figures about RIAT.
Royal Air Force Charitable Trust Enterprises
Accounts for 2008-2009
From an income of over 8 Million pounds, the charity got 300 thousand.
Of which, less than 200 thousand pounds was given to the people we all expect to be getting the money. Still, the expenses were right up there in the good figures, so nobody missed out.
If that was a business the bank would pull the plug.
http://www.airtattoo.com/Files/repor...nts%202009.pdf
Royal Air Force Charitable Trust Enterprises
Accounts for 2008-2009
From an income of over 8 Million pounds, the charity got 300 thousand.
Of which, less than 200 thousand pounds was given to the people we all expect to be getting the money. Still, the expenses were right up there in the good figures, so nobody missed out.
If that was a business the bank would pull the plug.
http://www.airtattoo.com/Files/repor...nts%202009.pdf
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"How would the Def Sec, FCO Sec and the PM like that?"
I think AirPolice got there before me... answer is:
"...within the following 24 hour news cycle, they almost certainly wouldnt give a sh*t."
Auntie Beeb wouldnt give a sh*t.. Sky might for a couple of days. ITV wouldnt give a ****. The Mail would get steamed up about it but then forget it inside 5 days and then no longer give a ****. The Grauniad would throw a street party.
Life would carry on, as it always does.
The only people it would matter to would be those who have served, and the few who continue to serve. Most of the rest of the population probably wouldnt even notice.
I think AirPolice got there before me... answer is:
"...within the following 24 hour news cycle, they almost certainly wouldnt give a sh*t."
Auntie Beeb wouldnt give a sh*t.. Sky might for a couple of days. ITV wouldnt give a ****. The Mail would get steamed up about it but then forget it inside 5 days and then no longer give a ****. The Grauniad would throw a street party.
Life would carry on, as it always does.
The only people it would matter to would be those who have served, and the few who continue to serve. Most of the rest of the population probably wouldnt even notice.
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My argument moved on from "the great unwashed" and the various bollox factories that feed them. We are now into the realm of Government embarrassment, particularly overseas. The Reds attract respect and kudos from Overseas and provide the sort of warm glow that governments love to bask in. Now if you mean they perform a decoy function like the Fort Guard in Beau Jest or McAuliffe's "Willy's tanks" in Bastogne, that's another argument and, I would suggest, that might be clever at the tactical level but dangerous folly at the Strategic. I believe that Out Of Trim grasps that point.
One of you (sorry, can't find it now) made a fair point that if the Reds are disbanded, we will never have another aerobatic display team. Well, when the Black Arrows re-equipped, we had a gap that was eventually but briefly filled by the Firebirds (and the Blue Diamonds? I forget). It wasn't until 4 FTS formed the Yellow Jacks did we really get a display team back. I suspect that the same would happen again, in due course. Having said that, there might not be a 4 FTS or CFS in the future and I can't see the Contractor (or is it Partner?) being that interested.
One of you (sorry, can't find it now) made a fair point that if the Reds are disbanded, we will never have another aerobatic display team. Well, when the Black Arrows re-equipped, we had a gap that was eventually but briefly filled by the Firebirds (and the Blue Diamonds? I forget). It wasn't until 4 FTS formed the Yellow Jacks did we really get a display team back. I suspect that the same would happen again, in due course. Having said that, there might not be a 4 FTS or CFS in the future and I can't see the Contractor (or is it Partner?) being that interested.
Originally Posted by GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU
It wasn't until 4 FTS formed the Yellow Jacks did we really get a display team back. I suspect that the same would happen again, in due course.
Originally Posted by GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU
Having said that, there might not be a 4 FTS or CFS in the future and I can't see the Contractor (or is it Partner?) being that interested
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No Sir, I believe you are wrong. The money saved will NOT go to the front line or even stay within the MOD.
BEagle, What would you offer up to cut next time?
Somewhere between 'twixt and 'twain
Lets see if we actually delivered an aerobatic team generated as a % front line/Hawk availability, sense suggests a cut the team to 6 aircraft. Would that help the pennies? Or would the admin/ eng tail still be an issue?
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BEagle, What would you offer up to cut next time?
Nothing. Apart, that is, from ripping up PFI contracts for MFTS, FSTA and SAR - all of which should be 100% military owned and manned.
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Gentlemen,
this entire debacle of cutting and scrapping what to the majority do seem like really good aircraft and assets, rests firmly on the shoulders of the top brass of the variouse branches of the Armed Services, self serving individuals who have had more of an eye open for themselves rather than the Service branch they represented,
They have fawned and agreed with the past government in such unison as to sound almost as part of that bunch of thieves and deadlegs,
Gordon Brown looked with his one nearly good eye at the reporters camera and stated to us, the members of the public, that he would always keep our defence's in tact,....well as we can all see what he did and agreed to has all but shutdown our ability to see off the enemy almost at the Door.
Sadly Cameron, still wet behind the ears from the last Bullingdon Club p--s up, has no idea what his schoolboy approach is doing to our country or to the once held pride of the entire population in being once regarded and classed as the best fighting force in the world.
Peter R-B
this entire debacle of cutting and scrapping what to the majority do seem like really good aircraft and assets, rests firmly on the shoulders of the top brass of the variouse branches of the Armed Services, self serving individuals who have had more of an eye open for themselves rather than the Service branch they represented,
They have fawned and agreed with the past government in such unison as to sound almost as part of that bunch of thieves and deadlegs,
Gordon Brown looked with his one nearly good eye at the reporters camera and stated to us, the members of the public, that he would always keep our defence's in tact,....well as we can all see what he did and agreed to has all but shutdown our ability to see off the enemy almost at the Door.
Sadly Cameron, still wet behind the ears from the last Bullingdon Club p--s up, has no idea what his schoolboy approach is doing to our country or to the once held pride of the entire population in being once regarded and classed as the best fighting force in the world.
Peter R-B
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GBZ
The Red Arrows may be the "Best in the World" however, in the 1950's their task was performed by front line Fighter Sqns such as 111 Sqn and later by 92 Sqn. I very much doubt that anybody who witnessed "Treble Ones" 22 Hunter Loop at the 1958 Farnborough Display will ever forget it.
The problem with RAFAT is that the Public see them as purely an Aerobatic Display Team and nothing else. Yes, they enjoy the displays - but question why they should be spared when SAR is being privatised, the Air Defence Fighter force decimated and SH Crews deploying for yet another spell in Afghanistan.
I see that it is "rumoured" that 1 Gp will become "a 6 Sqn Group" in the coming years - if true, where is the need to drum up potential recruits at vast cost in manpower, fuel and servicing requirements to keep such a display Team in the Public Eye?
The Red Arrows may be the "Best in the World" however, in the 1950's their task was performed by front line Fighter Sqns such as 111 Sqn and later by 92 Sqn. I very much doubt that anybody who witnessed "Treble Ones" 22 Hunter Loop at the 1958 Farnborough Display will ever forget it.
The problem with RAFAT is that the Public see them as purely an Aerobatic Display Team and nothing else. Yes, they enjoy the displays - but question why they should be spared when SAR is being privatised, the Air Defence Fighter force decimated and SH Crews deploying for yet another spell in Afghanistan.
I see that it is "rumoured" that 1 Gp will become "a 6 Sqn Group" in the coming years - if true, where is the need to drum up potential recruits at vast cost in manpower, fuel and servicing requirements to keep such a display Team in the Public Eye?