Time to bin the Red Arrows
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Herc-U-Lease: If you think a tight diamond 9 formation has the likes of say, Jong Il or Mugabe quaking in their boots, with nothing offensive to back it up, then you live on a different planet mate. The only formation they'd be afraid of is a wing of armed bombers overflying their capital, and we lost that capability a long time ago. Even then, these nutcases don't necessarily respect what you have. Nutcase is nutcase. Look at what North Korea are up to despite what the US are deploying in the region. You cannot face up to despots with a red painted flying circus.
I agree to some extent with what you said, especially regarding the likes of Kim Jong Il. You cannot just have the Reds and no real air force to back it up - that would be all mouth and no trousers. A display only team would be akin to the royal Jordanian Falcons - great display but not exactly known as a military power. But as a counter to the argument of the Reds as a flying circus, you can have the best hardware in the world but if you are unable to demonstrate your ability to use it effectively, then what is the point? (think Saudi Arabia; great kit, questionable pilot abilities).
I maintain my opinion the Reds are the single biggest peacetime air deterrent we have. I can think of few other peacetime efforts which show the capabilities of our crews. What other methods do we have to very publicly demonstrate the aviation capabilities of the RAF's finest FJ pilots on the world stage? Kim Jong Il may not think twice about the Reds, but if we came to blows with NK I'd be willing to bet his CAS at least recognizes the quality of our pilots.
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Laarbruch 72
The Air Cadet Organisation has played an essential part in keeping the RAF in the Public eye over the last 70+ years. As you will know the ATC was preceeded by the Air Defence Cadet Corps prior to WW2. That Organisation was adopted by the Air Ministry to give pre-conscription training to male youths aged between 14 and 18 years- hence the change of name.
I can foresee the Air Cadet Organisation being forced to return to being a non sponsored organisation in the current economic climate. Recruitment to the Armed Forces will be severely curtailed over the coming years and it will be extremely difficult to justify expenditure on a large Air Cadet Organisation rather than on a contracting RAF.
My old ATC Sqn (1107) no longer exists; nor does the RAF Unit with the same number - that was a Marine Craft Unit which disbanded more than 40 years ago; helicopters could do the job faster and with a smaller crew.
The Air Cadet Organisation has played an essential part in keeping the RAF in the Public eye over the last 70+ years. As you will know the ATC was preceeded by the Air Defence Cadet Corps prior to WW2. That Organisation was adopted by the Air Ministry to give pre-conscription training to male youths aged between 14 and 18 years- hence the change of name.
I can foresee the Air Cadet Organisation being forced to return to being a non sponsored organisation in the current economic climate. Recruitment to the Armed Forces will be severely curtailed over the coming years and it will be extremely difficult to justify expenditure on a large Air Cadet Organisation rather than on a contracting RAF.
My old ATC Sqn (1107) no longer exists; nor does the RAF Unit with the same number - that was a Marine Craft Unit which disbanded more than 40 years ago; helicopters could do the job faster and with a smaller crew.
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I'm a great supporter of the Reds and appreciate that they do great things for the Country and Services in particular. They are also a great motivator and source of pride in the Air Force. I also think that any Defence money saved would amount to bugger all.
That said, I'm now beginning to think that CAS should give (not just offer)them up as an, albeit mythical, "saving". Why? because for as long as they exist, the Great British ballotbox fodder will continue to believe that all is well. They currently seem to have no grasp that the Air Force (and the Navy) currently has its a**e hanging out of its trousers. It is up poo creek and everybody outside is pretending we will muddle through as we (OK, I'm not light blue) always have.
Make a serious statement; gash them. Similar with ARK; let the Name die with her. Let the Public know that their comfort blankets have gone to the ragbone man.
It grieves me to have written that.
That said, I'm now beginning to think that CAS should give (not just offer)them up as an, albeit mythical, "saving". Why? because for as long as they exist, the Great British ballotbox fodder will continue to believe that all is well. They currently seem to have no grasp that the Air Force (and the Navy) currently has its a**e hanging out of its trousers. It is up poo creek and everybody outside is pretending we will muddle through as we (OK, I'm not light blue) always have.
Make a serious statement; gash them. Similar with ARK; let the Name die with her. Let the Public know that their comfort blankets have gone to the ragbone man.
It grieves me to have written that.
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GBZ - That's pretty much along the lines that I'm thinking and it grieves me too!
The General Public do not realise - just yet.. that the cuts have now gone too far and capabilities have been lost; maybe for ever.
You can only cut the forces so far, before their existence is just a facade with nothing holding it together.
Maybe they can still talk the talk, but thats about as far as it goes unless you start threatening the use of Nuclear Weapons at a much earlier stage!
It's enough to make you weep..
The General Public do not realise - just yet.. that the cuts have now gone too far and capabilities have been lost; maybe for ever.
You can only cut the forces so far, before their existence is just a facade with nothing holding it together.
Maybe they can still talk the talk, but thats about as far as it goes unless you start threatening the use of Nuclear Weapons at a much earlier stage!
It's enough to make you weep..
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The General Public do not realise - just yet.. that the cuts have now gone too far and capabilities have been lost; maybe for ever.
You can only cut the forces so far, before their existence is just a facade with nothing holding it together.
You can only cut the forces so far, before their existence is just a facade with nothing holding it together.
Last edited by Q-RTF-X; 17th Dec 2010 at 07:17.
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As Winco correctly says binning the Reds wont mean any more money goes to active front line squadrons, but will IMHO opinion be a big loss to the service and Great Britain Plc. far more money is wasted each year by the MOD
MoD 'wasting £6 billion a year'
The Ministry of Defence is wasting £6 billion a year on bureaucracy and overspending, it has been claimed. Inefficiency at the organisation is responsible for inadequate supplies of equipment that have led to the deaths of dozens of servicemen, senior officials allegedly complained.
Overhauling the way the department is managed could save up to £4 billion, or 20 per cent of its operating costs, according to a report by Deloitte, the consultants.
A further £2 billion a year from its annual £43 billion budget is wasted through overspending on equipment orders, causing equipment to reach troops late, or not arrive at all, an internal report found.
The Ministry of Defence is wasting £6 billion a year on bureaucracy and overspending, it has been claimed. Inefficiency at the organisation is responsible for inadequate supplies of equipment that have led to the deaths of dozens of servicemen, senior officials allegedly complained.
Overhauling the way the department is managed could save up to £4 billion, or 20 per cent of its operating costs, according to a report by Deloitte, the consultants.
A further £2 billion a year from its annual £43 billion budget is wasted through overspending on equipment orders, causing equipment to reach troops late, or not arrive at all, an internal report found.
Side Note:
The General Public do not realise - just yet.. that the cuts have now gone too far and capabilities have been lost; maybe for ever.
You can only cut the forces so far, before their existence is just a facade with nothing holding it together.
You can only cut the forces so far, before their existence is just a facade with nothing holding it together.
Britain may halve its fast-jet fleet by 2020 or so, according to the commanding officer of the Royal Air Force's No. 1 Group.
"It will be a six-squadron world; that's what's on the books."
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So recruiting into the RAF is never going to be a problem
Time to bin RAFAT - bolleaux!
What a defeatist bunch of crap has been written on this thread.
The Reds are about the only contact the Great Unwashed has with the RAF; take that away and there'd be absolutely no presence in the public eye, apart from ever more TV news items about sad repatriations from Bliar's Afghanistani meat grinder...
It's more important than ever that the RAFAT should present a 'Business as usual' front to the GenPub, so would all the Uriah Heap handwringing defeatists, whingeing baldricks and others please sod off and moan elsewhere.
I'm very happy to pay my taxes towards RAFAT; long may the Reds continue!
The Reds are about the only contact the Great Unwashed has with the RAF; take that away and there'd be absolutely no presence in the public eye, apart from ever more TV news items about sad repatriations from Bliar's Afghanistani meat grinder...
It's more important than ever that the RAFAT should present a 'Business as usual' front to the GenPub, so would all the Uriah Heap handwringing defeatists, whingeing baldricks and others please sod off and moan elsewhere.
I'm very happy to pay my taxes towards RAFAT; long may the Reds continue!
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The Reds are about the only contact the Great Unwashed has with the RAF; take that away and there'd be absolutely no presence in the public eye, apart from ever more TV news items about sad repatriations from Bliar's Afghanistani meat grinder...
It's more important than ever that the RAFAT should present a 'Business as usual' front to the GenPub, so would all the Uriah Heap handwringing defeatists, whingeing baldricks and others please sod off and moan elsewhere.
It's more important than ever that the RAFAT should present a 'Business as usual' front to the GenPub, so would all the Uriah Heap handwringing defeatists, whingeing baldricks and others please sod off and moan elsewhere.
I think it's more important that they do this and personnel are given the opportunity to meet with the general public and engage with them at airshows rather than just withdraw in to a hole to make a point of some kind.
Scrapping The Reds would indeed have a hugely negative impact with the GP - but possibly not in the way that those of you advocating might think.
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BEags,
Have you written to your MP recently, expressing your alarm? Perhaps you could also pass on our concerns
Have you written to your MP recently, expressing your alarm? Perhaps you could also pass on our concerns
Last edited by jindabyne; 16th Dec 2010 at 21:16.
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Beagle, as always I bow to your knowledge of facts relating to all aspects of aviation.....however, this is more of an opinion and oddly enough I disagree with your view.
I think that the time has come for the Reds to go. We can't really have any sacred cows anymore.
Given the money that it costs to run the team, how do we get everyone else to tighten their belt? Inside and outside the RAF, we need to be seen to be taking the same hit as the rest of the world, particularly the public, who fund the whole thing.
The RAF don't need elitist recruiting tools, and as for them being a showcase for British Industry, yeah right. The same folk who made the A380 engine and the Nimrod? The people who "launched" a Submarine today but due to "technical issues" it failed to get wet.
The farce of a contract that makes it cheaper to buy the carriers than cancel the contract, and the huge amount of money paid up front for the MRa4 that the customer walked away from.... I think that tells the potential international customers more about British Industry than watching the Reds will.
The RAF could save the cost of the Reds many times over by just stopping all the waste, but how do we get anyone to take a hit on SSSA when they see the circus staying in top hotels?
Helicopters stored at Shawbury for the want of a dashboard, Tornados with holes drilled in the wrong bit of the spar, MRa4, Valley producing Pilots at a fantastic rate for years and yet the number of planes decrereasing all the time. Leeming gets resurfaced in time for their F3s to retire.
There's nothing difficult about seeing where the money is wasted. Over four years training to get an F3 Pilot CR and then he leaves at the end of his first operational tour.
The loss of the Reds would be a bit of a statement, their continueed absence would be a loss to the general public. However, I think the time has come to take such a hit.
Mostly, since we would all feel strongly about it, when we were missing them we would all find it easier to focus on finding examples of waste to put in Wikileaks or Private Eye, to highlight exactly what the RAF are funding with the savings from having given up the worlds finest aerobatic display team.
I think that the time has come for the Reds to go. We can't really have any sacred cows anymore.
Given the money that it costs to run the team, how do we get everyone else to tighten their belt? Inside and outside the RAF, we need to be seen to be taking the same hit as the rest of the world, particularly the public, who fund the whole thing.
The RAF don't need elitist recruiting tools, and as for them being a showcase for British Industry, yeah right. The same folk who made the A380 engine and the Nimrod? The people who "launched" a Submarine today but due to "technical issues" it failed to get wet.
The farce of a contract that makes it cheaper to buy the carriers than cancel the contract, and the huge amount of money paid up front for the MRa4 that the customer walked away from.... I think that tells the potential international customers more about British Industry than watching the Reds will.
The RAF could save the cost of the Reds many times over by just stopping all the waste, but how do we get anyone to take a hit on SSSA when they see the circus staying in top hotels?
Helicopters stored at Shawbury for the want of a dashboard, Tornados with holes drilled in the wrong bit of the spar, MRa4, Valley producing Pilots at a fantastic rate for years and yet the number of planes decrereasing all the time. Leeming gets resurfaced in time for their F3s to retire.
There's nothing difficult about seeing where the money is wasted. Over four years training to get an F3 Pilot CR and then he leaves at the end of his first operational tour.
The loss of the Reds would be a bit of a statement, their continueed absence would be a loss to the general public. However, I think the time has come to take such a hit.
Mostly, since we would all feel strongly about it, when we were missing them we would all find it easier to focus on finding examples of waste to put in Wikileaks or Private Eye, to highlight exactly what the RAF are funding with the savings from having given up the worlds finest aerobatic display team.
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airpolice
Your views and sentiments are similar to mine though expressed more eloquently; well delivered
BEagle
I think you will find more than a few who advocate sacrificing the RAFAT do so as a possible means of drawing the attention of the General Public to the sad plight of the Armed Forces in general and the Royal Air Force in particular, thus is a deliberate strategy in the hope of drawing attention to a serious issue; I would not consider such to be defeatist.
In effect, you suggest following a path of what amounts to highly expensive public deception. Things are far from ‘Business as usual’, why pretend otherwise? That sort of activity is better left to the politicians who are much more proficient in attempts to hoodwink the “Great Unwashed”
Your views and sentiments are similar to mine though expressed more eloquently; well delivered
BEagle
What a defeatist bunch of crap has been written on this thread.
The Reds are about the only contact the Great Unwashed has with the RAF; take that away and there'd be absolutely no presence in the public eye
It's more important than ever that the RAFAT should present a 'Business as usual' front to the GenPub
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Helicopters stored at Shawbury for the want of a dashboard, Tornados with holes drilled in the wrong bit of the spar, MRa4, Valley producing Pilots at a fantastic rate for years and yet the number of planes decrereasing all the time. Leeming gets resurfaced in time for their F3s to retire.
Tim
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Laarbruch / cazatou
I agree that a significant number of recruits have been raised from the Air Training Corps, perhaps more that some would realize. My old squadron (1196) is still chugging along very well and over the years delivered a broad spectrum of recruits to the Air Force. My era alone (around 50 years ago now) produced three Boy Entrants (two technical trades one into catering) two pilots, one of whom ultimately served a tour as OC Queens Flight, plus several direct entrants one who kicked off as an ATC assistant ultimately becoming a Master Air Loadmaster on ASR duties; not forgetting another who failed his RAF medical and became a civilian Air Traffic Controller. The ATC is a low cost recruitment and pre-selection tool that also figures in molding young people and providing a good moral framework thus providing a social service without which some may be at risk of drifting into less desirable activities. I was one of the Boy Entrants mentioned above, I had my direction more or less mapped out with the help of the ATC, and transition into the Air Force was little more than a formality. For sure, they lack the dramatic impact of the Red Arrows, but certainly they help the recruitment process. Long may they continue.
I agree that a significant number of recruits have been raised from the Air Training Corps, perhaps more that some would realize. My old squadron (1196) is still chugging along very well and over the years delivered a broad spectrum of recruits to the Air Force. My era alone (around 50 years ago now) produced three Boy Entrants (two technical trades one into catering) two pilots, one of whom ultimately served a tour as OC Queens Flight, plus several direct entrants one who kicked off as an ATC assistant ultimately becoming a Master Air Loadmaster on ASR duties; not forgetting another who failed his RAF medical and became a civilian Air Traffic Controller. The ATC is a low cost recruitment and pre-selection tool that also figures in molding young people and providing a good moral framework thus providing a social service without which some may be at risk of drifting into less desirable activities. I was one of the Boy Entrants mentioned above, I had my direction more or less mapped out with the help of the ATC, and transition into the Air Force was little more than a formality. For sure, they lack the dramatic impact of the Red Arrows, but certainly they help the recruitment process. Long may they continue.
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BEagle,
The thread is "Time to bin the Red Arrows", surely you can get your point across without ranting, if you are indeed a "writer". Don't spoil an otherwise polite thread please.
Cheers
The thread is "Time to bin the Red Arrows", surely you can get your point across without ranting, if you are indeed a "writer". Don't spoil an otherwise polite thread please.
Cheers
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The point you are all missing is that the £6m that may get saved, WILL NOT EVEN STAY WITHIN THE MOD BUDGET, let alone get to the front line. Why do you think there always the panic to get airborne before the end of the financial year? So we could burn up all the fuel that we had saved otherwise it would be taken off next years' allowance. This money will go to Mr Osborne and he will decide who gets it, NOT AOC 22Gp.
Get real for goodness sake.
Just because things are pretty sh1t at the moment, lets not make it worse by offering up the one thing that shows us in a good light. And lets not forget the 100's of thousands that go to airshows every year, many just to see the Arrows. A huge amount of the revenue that those shows generate goes to the likes of the RAFBF. Do we really want give them a kicking also?
I accept that the problems need highlighting to the public, but getting rid of the Arrows is NOT the way to do it. Before the public even get a chance to kick up a stink it will be too late, and they will be gone forever.
airpolice
I agree with your sentiments Sir, but why do you feel it is appropriate to punish BAEs by getting rid of the RAF Red Arrows?? Punish BAEs all you want, but I don't see the point of the nation having to take a hit for their incompetance.
Get real for goodness sake.
Just because things are pretty sh1t at the moment, lets not make it worse by offering up the one thing that shows us in a good light. And lets not forget the 100's of thousands that go to airshows every year, many just to see the Arrows. A huge amount of the revenue that those shows generate goes to the likes of the RAFBF. Do we really want give them a kicking also?
I accept that the problems need highlighting to the public, but getting rid of the Arrows is NOT the way to do it. Before the public even get a chance to kick up a stink it will be too late, and they will be gone forever.
airpolice
I agree with your sentiments Sir, but why do you feel it is appropriate to punish BAEs by getting rid of the RAF Red Arrows?? Punish BAEs all you want, but I don't see the point of the nation having to take a hit for their incompetance.
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Winco.
With the holiday season almost upon us you may have time to do some research.
The RAFBF is not making much out of the Arrows as the Airshow Business, it is indeed a business, has to pay the cost of the REDS and others attending and sometimes staying in very expensive hotels. As part of the spin about "the airshow will not be costing the RAF/MoD anything", the business that runs the airshow need to charge and pay for all sorts of stuff.
I was told that a major show only just broke even last year and was expected to lose money this year. I don't think that service charities are gertting much of the admission price. The huge charges to commercial ventures participating in the shows will put them off, and the public get double stiffed for big ticket prices and £2.50 for a bag of chips.
Lots of people contributing to this debate are saying that saving the cost of the Reds is not money the RAF can spend elsewhere. I am not seeing it that way. The MoD have given the RAF an amount of money, Would you rather see it spent on keeping operational crews current on their aircraft or keeping the Reds?
In human terms, would you give money to a homeless drunk, or would you think that if he can afford to get pissed he is not in need of anymore money?
Disbanding the team will be a symbolic gesture, and perhaps that is what is needed. A line in the sand, if you like.
There is a new Royal Air Force in the making, but that's (going to be) another thread.
With the holiday season almost upon us you may have time to do some research.
The RAFBF is not making much out of the Arrows as the Airshow Business, it is indeed a business, has to pay the cost of the REDS and others attending and sometimes staying in very expensive hotels. As part of the spin about "the airshow will not be costing the RAF/MoD anything", the business that runs the airshow need to charge and pay for all sorts of stuff.
I was told that a major show only just broke even last year and was expected to lose money this year. I don't think that service charities are gertting much of the admission price. The huge charges to commercial ventures participating in the shows will put them off, and the public get double stiffed for big ticket prices and £2.50 for a bag of chips.
Lots of people contributing to this debate are saying that saving the cost of the Reds is not money the RAF can spend elsewhere. I am not seeing it that way. The MoD have given the RAF an amount of money, Would you rather see it spent on keeping operational crews current on their aircraft or keeping the Reds?
In human terms, would you give money to a homeless drunk, or would you think that if he can afford to get pissed he is not in need of anymore money?
Disbanding the team will be a symbolic gesture, and perhaps that is what is needed. A line in the sand, if you like.
There is a new Royal Air Force in the making, but that's (going to be) another thread.