Time to bin the Red Arrows
It will truly be a sad day when the Reds disappear, but it seems the luxury of a full-time display team is approaching unaffordability. If the £40m figure for providing new buildings at Waddo is true then it's obscene. So I suggest a few options:
1. Merge the Reds with 100 Sqn and give the Reds a "real job". Yes, the complexity and perhaps size of the display would need to be toned down to befit a "part-time" status but it would enable airframe hours to be husbanded. There's plenty of infra at Leeming so it would save another £40m gin-palace. Reds disappear when the Hawk goes OSD, 100 Sqn role (if required) contracted out.
2. Part time from the front line. Plenty of Typhoons lurking in the UK FIR, put a sqn 4-ship up. Compete it between the sqns every year to give them a taste of competition and a source of pride/rivalry. Winner displays for a year. Probably a simple show but 4 very noisy jets would be an impressive spectacle to see/hear. Twin-engine aircraft also provide a better safety margin for displays over built up areas and we do still want to export these ac for the next 10 years so there's a high chance of strong corporate sponsorship. Oh, hang on, might get in the way of the exercise plot......
3. Bin them now. The RAF provides role demos from front line types. The airshow world is not the same as the 80s/90s. Sad but true. The BBMF provide the core of RAF representation with the role demos (both FW and RW) to back up.
4. The RAF invests in a small fleet of Extra-type ac and recruit from across all of the pilot branch to man them (AT/RW guys with UAS/AEF time would be eligable - that way you'd get the "war story" angle and perhaps the odd DFC..). Cheap to buy and run - paint them in a striking RAF display scheme and move them abroad in a C17 if required. Might p*ss off the Blades though...
5. Carry on funding the Reds as is, splashing out on some swanky new Sqn buildings at Waddo and pretending that all is well in the RAF budget.
Joking aside, tough choices ahead methinks....
1. Merge the Reds with 100 Sqn and give the Reds a "real job". Yes, the complexity and perhaps size of the display would need to be toned down to befit a "part-time" status but it would enable airframe hours to be husbanded. There's plenty of infra at Leeming so it would save another £40m gin-palace. Reds disappear when the Hawk goes OSD, 100 Sqn role (if required) contracted out.
2. Part time from the front line. Plenty of Typhoons lurking in the UK FIR, put a sqn 4-ship up. Compete it between the sqns every year to give them a taste of competition and a source of pride/rivalry. Winner displays for a year. Probably a simple show but 4 very noisy jets would be an impressive spectacle to see/hear. Twin-engine aircraft also provide a better safety margin for displays over built up areas and we do still want to export these ac for the next 10 years so there's a high chance of strong corporate sponsorship. Oh, hang on, might get in the way of the exercise plot......
3. Bin them now. The RAF provides role demos from front line types. The airshow world is not the same as the 80s/90s. Sad but true. The BBMF provide the core of RAF representation with the role demos (both FW and RW) to back up.
4. The RAF invests in a small fleet of Extra-type ac and recruit from across all of the pilot branch to man them (AT/RW guys with UAS/AEF time would be eligable - that way you'd get the "war story" angle and perhaps the odd DFC..). Cheap to buy and run - paint them in a striking RAF display scheme and move them abroad in a C17 if required. Might p*ss off the Blades though...
5. Carry on funding the Reds as is, splashing out on some swanky new Sqn buildings at Waddo and pretending that all is well in the RAF budget.
Joking aside, tough choices ahead methinks....
I've watched them since I can remember, some 37 yrs in fact. the Hawk is getting on and must be more expensive than the Tucano to run. Given that both types are due for retirement, may be a Grob team? I think they do a marvellous job, but surely it's time to think about alternatives.
Does anyone have any info on costs of RAFAT through FOI etc? If so please post it so we can have some proper discussion?
Does anyone have any info on costs of RAFAT through FOI etc? If so please post it so we can have some proper discussion?
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PS I've also said "No" to Mrs T and lived to tell the tale.
Did she ask the question “Cazatou, shall I bin most of the Navy Ships and keep the Red Arrows”……..or was it “Should I be No 48 and the Red Arrows No 47”:
Fish and chips voted no 1 in the Best of British poll - Telegraph
And before anybody says “only” No 47, at least they are there, listed in a light hearted poll about the best of British. They mean something to many people.
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SRENNAPS
There was no need to ask such a question - Mr Brown had not, at that stage, been let loose to create havoc with the nations finances. You do remember his Mantra don't you?
"A Pound spent on Defence is a Pound wasted."
Do pay Attention!!
There was no need to ask such a question - Mr Brown had not, at that stage, been let loose to create havoc with the nations finances. You do remember his Mantra don't you?
"A Pound spent on Defence is a Pound wasted."
Do pay Attention!!
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Hueymeister
Estimated Cost of RAFAT 2009/10
6.1 million Pounds of which fuel costs were 1.2 million Pounds.
That was the projected costing which does not take into account any required rectification following such events as birdstrikes or other mishaps.
Estimated Cost of RAFAT 2009/10
6.1 million Pounds of which fuel costs were 1.2 million Pounds.
That was the projected costing which does not take into account any required rectification following such events as birdstrikes or other mishaps.
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Where else could you get world over coverage for the RAF/UK brand at only £6 mil. How easy can that be squandered on something with no appreciable result or benefit. If you are happy to bin the Reds over just 6 mil then God help anything else worth keeping just for enjoyment, I know let's get rid of bank holidays as they must cost the country millions in lost business tax revenue! Or how about life is not just about money it's about enjoyment I mean who wants to go and watch an airshow with a taxpayer funded team better still scrap airshows all together think of the millions saved then!
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Cazatou,
Not sure I fully understand your reply. Maybe you cannot remember the cuts made to the Royal Navy in Maggie’s first year. (I think you would have been about 15 and I admit I was only 19, but I was serving at the time and the cuts sent shock waves everywhere). Ironically we had the Falklands war shortly after that and suddenly we needed a Navy again.
Assuming that you are an intelligent man I am staggered that you seem to hold Gordon Brown responsible for the state of the Nations Finances. Every country in Europe and even the USA is facing the same difficulties. It is down to incompetence and greed in the economic world, not the PM who just happens to be in post at the time. It would have happened if any PM or party had been in power.
"A Pound spent on Defence is a Pound wasted." Yes, in words he did say that but I think those words need to be looked at in the full context.
Please do not take this the wrong way or as a personal attack on your good self and maybe I am being paranoid, but you seem to have a lot of figures about the RAFAT and use them to support your argument to bin them. I prey to God that you are not in a position to influence any decision on the Red Arrows or even worse the RAF as a whole.
Anyway, I think me and you will always agree to differ on this argument so why don’t we just knock it on the head and let time take its course.
Regards
Not sure I fully understand your reply. Maybe you cannot remember the cuts made to the Royal Navy in Maggie’s first year. (I think you would have been about 15 and I admit I was only 19, but I was serving at the time and the cuts sent shock waves everywhere). Ironically we had the Falklands war shortly after that and suddenly we needed a Navy again.
Assuming that you are an intelligent man I am staggered that you seem to hold Gordon Brown responsible for the state of the Nations Finances. Every country in Europe and even the USA is facing the same difficulties. It is down to incompetence and greed in the economic world, not the PM who just happens to be in post at the time. It would have happened if any PM or party had been in power.
"A Pound spent on Defence is a Pound wasted." Yes, in words he did say that but I think those words need to be looked at in the full context.
Estimated Cost of RAFAT 2009/10
6.1 million Pounds of which fuel costs were 1.2 million Pounds.
That was the projected costing which does not take into account any required rectification following such events as birdstrikes or other mishaps.
6.1 million Pounds of which fuel costs were 1.2 million Pounds.
That was the projected costing which does not take into account any required rectification following such events as birdstrikes or other mishaps.
Anyway, I think me and you will always agree to differ on this argument so why don’t we just knock it on the head and let time take its course.
Regards
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Firstly, with apologies to Lord Trenchards Brat, with there being over 30,000 users of this site i am sure that there must be some near naming on profiles, but when you pick your name there was no conflicts, any way, the cost to the MOD every year to keep the Reds in the air is £80m upwards, , as i said before, for every hour flown now requires 24 hrs maintainance, the Airframe is tired out, tailplanes have to be removed every 25 hrs for NDT checking, this takes 4 men 3 hrs at a time to carry out, along with the NDT specialist being brought in from Waddo every day, then there is the functionals and duplicate (independent) inspections, the continual problem with the Hyd 2 system airiating causing the R.A.T. to pop in flight, the rising cost of jet fuel as well as deisel,the wagee bill for a squadron of 130 people is neaely £5m, Bea Systems no longer sponsor the team, every one who wants to buy Hawk have done now, the hotel bills are hardly covered by the Airshow fee,s Ping may throw in a few golf clubs every year and thats about it, people may think i am anti Reds, let me tell you it was one of the highlights of my Military Career being one of the "Blues"...............but i also spent many years on the Harrier and Nimrod force....and to see the decimation of the RAF i love being carried out at the moment, i cannot justify a squadron of 13 jets being used purley to display for 4 months of the year when you are getting rid of the only Close Air Support jet we had left (Typhoon and Tornado are IDS a/c)
The Reds have even lost their role as secondary air defence fighter in the Mixed Fighter role, the weapons boxes have been removed and replaced with GPS............i dont want to see them go but i would rather see every Guy/Gal on the ground with the full protective kit they deserve instead of just the second hand kit they have to hand back at Kandahar Air base when they are repatriated...left for the next set of poor buggers coming in on Timmy Tristar.......sorry boys but its time to go
The Reds have even lost their role as secondary air defence fighter in the Mixed Fighter role, the weapons boxes have been removed and replaced with GPS............i dont want to see them go but i would rather see every Guy/Gal on the ground with the full protective kit they deserve instead of just the second hand kit they have to hand back at Kandahar Air base when they are repatriated...left for the next set of poor buggers coming in on Timmy Tristar.......sorry boys but its time to go
I am staggered that you seem to hold Gordon Brown responsible for the state of the Nations Finances
Easy to blame cameron etc for cuts that I view as scandalous but Broon and co left us in dire straits financially.
As somebody else posted on one of the recent threads - MOD has not exactly helped by also squandering billions over the years.
I also do not believe that the reds are self financing (see TB's last post) and I never thought I would ever say that we should bin the reds - but our air force is now too small to retain a full time display team !!
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Terminological inexactitudes
The cost of the Reds would seem to be somewhere between the 6 Million and the 80 Million pound figures quoted.
How nice it would be to have the truth, facts and accurate figures with explanations for them. No more hiding things behind the idea that the engineers and pilots are in the RAF anyway so their salaries don't count.
How nice it would be to have the truth, facts and accurate figures with explanations for them. No more hiding things behind the idea that the engineers and pilots are in the RAF anyway so their salaries don't count.
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Where else could you get world over coverage for the RAF/UK brand at only £6 mil. How easy can that be squandered on something with no appreciable result or benefit. If
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Davejb
Yes. And moreover, if the Reds' rationale were solely:
Then if it was such great value, then Foreign Office would be banging on the MoD's door to stop the Reds getting binned with a big bag of unmarked £50 notes. 
Not sure that we're going to see the FCO dashing across Whitehall anytime soon.... 
S41
Yes. And moreover, if the Reds' rationale were solely:
Where else could you get world over coverage for the RAF/UK brand at only £6 mil?
Not sure that we're going to see the FCO dashing across Whitehall anytime soon.... S41
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somewhere between the 6 Million and the 80 Million pound
The military are being decimated by the misappropriation funds from too many years of 5* hotels and 1st class travel, not to mention wasted funds on the inability to write a proper contract!
Yes, the Reds are a great "future" recruiting tool, yes they do sell UK PLC, however I have a feeling that no one will be buying into UK PLC as we no longer have anything to sell!
God help those left behind - no prospects, no promotions, no pensions!
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The Hawk is not rated as a "Complex" aircraft its realitivlly easy to service, but lets look at some number crunching shall we and work out how you can only spend £6m a year on 13 jets. Adour 15101 Engine, £250,000 to overhaul, (at least 7 done in a season) Canopy refurbs £750,000 (at least 2 a year)....remember now that the RAF have cut back on its 3rd line support everything has to go to industry, at least all 13 will have a primary or primary star servicing every year at some point, maybe even 2 each, at least 3 will be on a Minor servicing and one will have a major servicing. Now the RAF operate a half life system on most components fitted to its jets, when it reaches half its safe working life its refurbished or replaced, a set of 4 filters for the oxygen system £25,000 is one number that springs to mind, all 13 jets will have them replaced in a season, the Hawk is notorious for the Airframe guys as a drill out not screw out jet, Triwing fastners fitted to all panels you may have to drill out 10 per large panel due to the slots in the head ripping when you turn them, they can cost about £1 each, thousands are replaced over a year.
All of you who operate your Cessna 150s and Cherokees baulk when you have to have an annual done to them....the cost is huge as you all know, well multiply what you pay by about 1000% and you will get a fair idea of the cost then times that by 13 and tell me £6m is a realistic number. The Officers wage bill alone is £250,000 a year before adding the SNCOs and other ranks on top, and yes that does come out of the defence budget.....so your £6m is looking a bit thin now isnt it, are they worth it anymore when you look at the hard facts of what they produce and at what cost..................i leave that open to discussion
All of you who operate your Cessna 150s and Cherokees baulk when you have to have an annual done to them....the cost is huge as you all know, well multiply what you pay by about 1000% and you will get a fair idea of the cost then times that by 13 and tell me £6m is a realistic number. The Officers wage bill alone is £250,000 a year before adding the SNCOs and other ranks on top, and yes that does come out of the defence budget.....so your £6m is looking a bit thin now isnt it, are they worth it anymore when you look at the hard facts of what they produce and at what cost..................i leave that open to discussion
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Srennaps
I am flattered by your opinion of my age, but I first flew Mrs Thatcher on the 5th/6th September 1979 whilst serving with 32 Sqn when I was 33 yrs old and in my 15th year of Service; the destinations were Dounreay and Aberdeen.
PS
Having also flown Mr Brown I am afraid that there is little point in expressing my opinion of that person as the Mods would have no option but to delete such a post.
PPS
I Googled RAFAT operating costs.
I am flattered by your opinion of my age, but I first flew Mrs Thatcher on the 5th/6th September 1979 whilst serving with 32 Sqn when I was 33 yrs old and in my 15th year of Service; the destinations were Dounreay and Aberdeen.
PS
Having also flown Mr Brown I am afraid that there is little point in expressing my opinion of that person as the Mods would have no option but to delete such a post.
PPS
I Googled RAFAT operating costs.
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too many years of 5* hotels and 1st class travel, not to mention wasted funds on the inability to write a proper contract!
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George Brown?
Back in 1969 I did - but it was on a different Squadron. An affable person.
The Money Counting Mr G Brown was a different proposition altogether.
Back in 1969 I did - but it was on a different Squadron. An affable person.
The Money Counting Mr G Brown was a different proposition altogether.
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cazatou
That certainly made me chuckle when I read your post and then realised that I had looked at France 46 and misread it as your age; Sorry
I bet you have some great stories from some very interesting jobs that you have obviously done over the years. It would be fascinating to sit and have a beer with you, I am sure.
I enjoyed the “discussions” that we had over the last couple of days and I totally respect your views, even if we have slight differences on them.
All the very best to you.
Kind Regards
Srennaps
I am flattered by your opinion of my age,
That certainly made me chuckle when I read your post and then realised that I had looked at France 46 and misread it as your age; Sorry
I bet you have some great stories from some very interesting jobs that you have obviously done over the years. It would be fascinating to sit and have a beer with you, I am sure.
I enjoyed the “discussions” that we had over the last couple of days and I totally respect your views, even if we have slight differences on them.
All the very best to you.
Kind Regards
Srennaps
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George Brown?
Back in 1969 I did - but it was on a different Squadron. An affable person.
Back in 1969 I did - but it was on a different Squadron. An affable person.
I think it's been said already but before we bin the 'Reds' should we not bin Foreign Aid and benefits to illegals?