Decision to axe Harrier is "bonkers".
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French reports of UK Apaches operations in Libya
Libye : "Ces chiens de Français..."
Libye : "Ces chiens de Français..."
...The action of the French was very different from those of their counterparts in the British Army. They had four Apaches deployed on a helicopter carrier, but never seem to have committed more than two simultaneously. The Apaches "worked" as fighter jets, firing Hellfire missiles on their targets programmed from a high altitude. ....
Slightly off thread, but same article (the French one) also notes that CPA 30 also provided a team for CR/CSAR. We seem to talk about it, produce a nice Doctrine glossy, then sit back and let others do it.
Batco
Batco
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BATCO
I was wondering when this would be broached and assume the usual PPrune Beadwindow police will shortly swing into action with their usual penchant for suppressing open source material.
JPR is of course a capability we (the UK) don't field, it is also one that is pretty much mandatory for operations. It also needs to be on high readiness in a sensible position.
In this case (Libya) feet wet JPR is pretty much the only option, in other theatres it would, of course be of limited utility. The capability you mention is, of course, not the only show in town, but they are all in similar places.
It would be intersting to hear AOC 1 Gp's slant on JPR given his publicly stated view on CDG's contribution, given that those boys on that ship were the ones covering his guys at the time.
I was wondering when this would be broached and assume the usual PPrune Beadwindow police will shortly swing into action with their usual penchant for suppressing open source material.
JPR is of course a capability we (the UK) don't field, it is also one that is pretty much mandatory for operations. It also needs to be on high readiness in a sensible position.
In this case (Libya) feet wet JPR is pretty much the only option, in other theatres it would, of course be of limited utility. The capability you mention is, of course, not the only show in town, but they are all in similar places.
It would be intersting to hear AOC 1 Gp's slant on JPR given his publicly stated view on CDG's contribution, given that those boys on that ship were the ones covering his guys at the time.
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Appears that USAF CSAR Black Hawks are aboard HMS Ocean
By Defence Images UK Ministry of Defence | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
By Defence Images UK Ministry of Defence | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
An Army Air Corps Apache helicopter takes off from HMS Ocean during Operation Ellamy, the UK's contribution to UNSCR1973 in the Mediterranean Sea near Libya.
This photo was taken on July 29, 2011 using a Nikon D3. Photographer: LA(Phot) Guy Pool
Image 45153052.jpg from Welcome to the Defence Image Database
This photo was taken on July 29, 2011 using a Nikon D3. Photographer: LA(Phot) Guy Pool
Image 45153052.jpg from Welcome to the Defence Image Database
So the land based jets have been aided by shipborne CSAR and ISTAR (ASaCs Sea Kings) - both of which reqiure a carrier/LPH, illuminating shells being fired by NATO warships, and NATO warships contributing to the control and coordination of strike aircraft.
Surely it would have simply been more effective to have shipborne strike aircraft since it was a flat top task anyway?
FL
Not sure how one does a quote with "originally posed by..." at the top of the quote box, but here is an article about Ocean's role, dated 1 September (ie the same date as your comment):
t’s now more than two months since Ocean was committed to Operation Unified Protector. Although media attention has been concentrated on the Army Air Corps Apaches of 656 Squadron – which have been launched on 49 sorties as of the end of August – the Mighty O’s flight deck and hangar are also home to Fleet Air Arm Lynx and Sea King.
The former, from 847 Naval Air Squadron, conduct force protection patrols and provide logistical support, while the ‘eyes in the sky’ of 857 Naval Air Squadron have carried out 99 sorties monitoring movements in the skies and on the ground courtesy of their state-of-the-art radars.
In all, since leaving the UK in late April, the deck handlers and Flying Control on Ocean have overseen 2,000 deck landings by British and visiting helicopters (the latter principally Pumas operating from the French flagship FS Charles de Gaulle, Le Tonnerre and Mistral).
Surely it would have simply been more effective to have shipborne strike aircraft since it was a flat top task anyway?
FL
Not sure how one does a quote with "originally posed by..." at the top of the quote box, but here is an article about Ocean's role, dated 1 September (ie the same date as your comment):
t’s now more than two months since Ocean was committed to Operation Unified Protector. Although media attention has been concentrated on the Army Air Corps Apaches of 656 Squadron – which have been launched on 49 sorties as of the end of August – the Mighty O’s flight deck and hangar are also home to Fleet Air Arm Lynx and Sea King.
The former, from 847 Naval Air Squadron, conduct force protection patrols and provide logistical support, while the ‘eyes in the sky’ of 857 Naval Air Squadron have carried out 99 sorties monitoring movements in the skies and on the ground courtesy of their state-of-the-art radars.
In all, since leaving the UK in late April, the deck handlers and Flying Control on Ocean have overseen 2,000 deck landings by British and visiting helicopters (the latter principally Pumas operating from the French flagship FS Charles de Gaulle, Le Tonnerre and Mistral).
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 5th Sep 2011 at 21:16.
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LL's
WEBF
Do we ever learn lessons?
I thought it changed to "Lessons Identified" so when the beancounters realise money needs spending, any changes/improvements to the way we do things get shelved. Or am I perhaps being cynical?
Back to this decade: Will there be a "lessons learnt" type study post Libya?
I thought it changed to "Lessons Identified" so when the beancounters realise money needs spending, any changes/improvements to the way we do things get shelved. Or am I perhaps being cynical?
WEBF
NATO did have such a capability didn't they? Not every role has to be provided by UK nor should UK have the need to provide every role in a NATO or coalition operation.
The cuts in defence were made for financial reasons - we were broke. Never mind the reasons why as it won't change a thing. Money still needs to be saved. There is no new money so where would the money come from to fund your plans? What capabilities would you have got rid of instead? I don't recall you having ever answered either of those questions and I, for one, would be fascinated to hear.
to have shipborne strike aircraft
The cuts in defence were made for financial reasons - we were broke. Never mind the reasons why as it won't change a thing. Money still needs to be saved. There is no new money so where would the money come from to fund your plans? What capabilities would you have got rid of instead? I don't recall you having ever answered either of those questions and I, for one, would be fascinated to hear.
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Wrathmonk. Perhaps WEBF Doesn't want to play the politicos' and beancounters' game? Just a thought, but every time someone on here says we could gash this or that to preserve a more effective other, we are either giving them ideas or supporting their beliefs. OK, discussing these things is part of the aims of this Site; but there are devious buggers out there who view our views as credibly expert.
Perhaps like me, WEBF, believes that less than 3%, against the Government's foreign policy aspirations and Home trade and industry hopes, is woefully inadequate. Personally, I think the whole exercise has been yet another vast "save to spend" one.
Perhaps like me, WEBF, believes that less than 3%, against the Government's foreign policy aspirations and Home trade and industry hopes, is woefully inadequate. Personally, I think the whole exercise has been yet another vast "save to spend" one.
Originally Posted by Wrathmonk
...There is no new money so where would the money come from to fund your plans?...
(I wouldn't be that cruel but I know others would.
)
GBZ
Precisely my point. Anyone can do a Little Britain impression of "I want that one" but there has got to be a hint of reality in there somewhere if it is going to be a worthwhile discussion. What's the old phrase "Don't bring me problems, bring me solutions". Mind you, it would be fantastic if we could have everything we all wanted ....
FODPLod - at least you are predictable.
UK Defence Force (aka The British Army with maritime and air regiments supporting) within 10 years!
Precisely my point. Anyone can do a Little Britain impression of "I want that one" but there has got to be a hint of reality in there somewhere if it is going to be a worthwhile discussion. What's the old phrase "Don't bring me problems, bring me solutions". Mind you, it would be fantastic if we could have everything we all wanted ....
FODPLod - at least you are predictable.
UK Defence Force (aka The British Army with maritime and air regiments supporting) within 10 years!
Wrothmonk wrote:
UK Defence Force (aka The British Army with maritime and air regiments supporting) within 10 years!
It works in Israel. ie a single IDF (zvai hagana l'israel) with a ground corps (hel yabasha), air corps (hel avir) and sea corps (hel yam).
And just to set the inter-Service cat amongst the pigeons the sea corps is the baby brother while their ground forces and air corps dwarf ours (less AT/AAR and ..... - I was going to say MR but then remembered they have 3 x GS550 SEMAs for that).
Shalom,
Batco
i sham b'aaretz
UK Defence Force (aka The British Army with maritime and air regiments supporting) within 10 years!
It works in Israel. ie a single IDF (zvai hagana l'israel) with a ground corps (hel yabasha), air corps (hel avir) and sea corps (hel yam).
And just to set the inter-Service cat amongst the pigeons the sea corps is the baby brother while their ground forces and air corps dwarf ours (less AT/AAR and ..... - I was going to say MR but then remembered they have 3 x GS550 SEMAs for that).
Shalom,
Batco
i sham b'aaretz
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"What's the old phrase "Don't bring me problems, bring me solutions"."
You do realise you're quoting Joe Stalin there? He was euphemistically ordering / justifying state murder.
You do realise you're quoting Joe Stalin there? He was euphemistically ordering / justifying state murder.
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James
That "Quote" could have been uttered by any of the Totalitarian dictators in 1941.
I remember in 1978 I was SDO at Northolt. I walked into the Bar in the Officers Mess just as "Joe" Kmiecick (our resident Polish Pilot) announced that the next round was on him. This was an unusual occurrence and someone asked what the occasion was - the answer was the best "one-liner" I have ever heard:
" Today is the 37th anniversary of my being sentenced to death by the Russians"
Luckily for Joe, the day after the "Sentence" the Germans invaded the USSR and in the confusion Joe escaped and walked across the USSR to Murmansk where (he always maintained) he joined the British Army. After docking in UK he unfortunately got on the wrong lorry and became a Fighter Pilot instead!!
That "Quote" could have been uttered by any of the Totalitarian dictators in 1941.
I remember in 1978 I was SDO at Northolt. I walked into the Bar in the Officers Mess just as "Joe" Kmiecick (our resident Polish Pilot) announced that the next round was on him. This was an unusual occurrence and someone asked what the occasion was - the answer was the best "one-liner" I have ever heard:
" Today is the 37th anniversary of my being sentenced to death by the Russians"
Luckily for Joe, the day after the "Sentence" the Germans invaded the USSR and in the confusion Joe escaped and walked across the USSR to Murmansk where (he always maintained) he joined the British Army. After docking in UK he unfortunately got on the wrong lorry and became a Fighter Pilot instead!!
james
I could find no attribution of my "quote" to Stalin but did find this one :
"Death is the solution to all problems. No man - no problem."
Is that the one you're thinking of???
I could find no attribution of my "quote" to Stalin but did find this one :
"Death is the solution to all problems. No man - no problem."
Is that the one you're thinking of???
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no - its not,
I came across the attribution many years ago in a management psychology text book. The author was talking about the ways in which leaders avoid responsibility for their actions, and the phrase was cited as an example of how to give orders without defining them.
Specifically how Stalin encouraged his minions to slaughter and relocate entire populations, without actually being explicit.
"Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?" was cited as another example.
Unfortunately, the details of the book have been long forgotten
I came across the attribution many years ago in a management psychology text book. The author was talking about the ways in which leaders avoid responsibility for their actions, and the phrase was cited as an example of how to give orders without defining them.
Specifically how Stalin encouraged his minions to slaughter and relocate entire populations, without actually being explicit.
"Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?" was cited as another example.
Unfortunately, the details of the book have been long forgotten
Last edited by jamesdevice; 5th Sep 2011 at 22:50.
Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest
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and, yes I know thats not the true origin of the phrase but it may get a bit of a "fun" thread drift going
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Flt Lt Blackadder fought in the Battle of Britain - flying Hurricanes with an Auxiliary Sqn IIRC.
Just to give a Military Aircrew slant as to what will follow!!
Found It!!
Flt Lt W F Blackadder 607 Sqn Auxiliary Air Force
Just to give a Military Aircrew slant as to what will follow!!
Found It!!
Flt Lt W F Blackadder 607 Sqn Auxiliary Air Force
Last edited by cazatou; 7th Sep 2011 at 09:32.