It's the bi-annual "Not enough parachuting" article
Just to put on my Staff Officer hat on...
The reason the jumps course is in Nov is because one cycle of selection starts in June. The J7 team at DSF must have enough historical evidence to show likely proportion of jumps lost due to wx in Nov. If it is not acceptable, then they need to move their courses dates until the rate is good enough.
To allow "80" SAS and "100" 18 Sigs guys go "front line" without doing jumps training is not a decision for the RAF to make. I don't know the risk appetite in DSF, but someone (likely COS to DSF, DDSF or DSF actual) has signed off to those servicemen moving on without the correct level of training.
DSF is the only Department I know of to be submitting proposals requesting an increase in budget during the SDSR (and one threatening a complete loss of SF capability if 2p is cut from their budget). Given the rest of Defence's desire to genuflect in their direction, I doubt if DSF (or SO1 J7 DSF) said that "from tomorrow all jumps will be conducted in America, hang the cost", anyone would bat an eyelid.
So, to summarise:
DSF (actual or organisation) made the decision, some c*ck is stirring trouble for the RAF, DSF is rubbing his/their hands in glee.
The reason the jumps course is in Nov is because one cycle of selection starts in June. The J7 team at DSF must have enough historical evidence to show likely proportion of jumps lost due to wx in Nov. If it is not acceptable, then they need to move their courses dates until the rate is good enough.
To allow "80" SAS and "100" 18 Sigs guys go "front line" without doing jumps training is not a decision for the RAF to make. I don't know the risk appetite in DSF, but someone (likely COS to DSF, DDSF or DSF actual) has signed off to those servicemen moving on without the correct level of training.
DSF is the only Department I know of to be submitting proposals requesting an increase in budget during the SDSR (and one threatening a complete loss of SF capability if 2p is cut from their budget). Given the rest of Defence's desire to genuflect in their direction, I doubt if DSF (or SO1 J7 DSF) said that "from tomorrow all jumps will be conducted in America, hang the cost", anyone would bat an eyelid.
So, to summarise:
DSF (actual or organisation) made the decision, some c*ck is stirring trouble for the RAF, DSF is rubbing his/their hands in glee.
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It's hard to argue against the SF need, particularly if they are using the capability on current ops, but the Para Regt joining in is a bit unnecessary; if we are scaling back our expectations across all services, why do they think a mass para drop capability is still required and should be immune from cuts?
There's lots of capabilities that are being used that are being considered for the chop.
The problem with our SF is that they use the "HMG neither confirms nor denies..." line to avoid scrutiny from the outside world. The most powerful 2* in UK Forces doesn't face public reckoning, they are as bad as any other part of HM Forces for their cock-ups and they get away with. Yes, they can march long distances with heavy weights at high speeds, but as Mark Urban's TF Black shows, they run their lives entirely to their own satisfaction, which may, or may not, be the best way to aid the "conventional" forces tasks.
The problem with our SF is that they use the "HMG neither confirms nor denies..." line to avoid scrutiny from the outside world. The most powerful 2* in UK Forces doesn't face public reckoning, they are as bad as any other part of HM Forces for their cock-ups and they get away with. Yes, they can march long distances with heavy weights at high speeds, but as Mark Urban's TF Black shows, they run their lives entirely to their own satisfaction, which may, or may not, be the best way to aid the "conventional" forces tasks.
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Is anyone still pretending that this Defence Review is a considered process?
looks like every man for himself now. Heard the other day that one of the options is to scrap C17s and keep the J fleet going for a little while longer until it can be replaced by A400M. Something about the A400M only being 30 kts slower than a C17. Christ, you have to wonder..
The stuff about SF throwing their teddies out of the cot might have some substance, who knows. What is undeniable, is that swathes of military capability, currently being used, or recently having been used is about to be lost, if not forever, at least unavailable in the short to medium term.
That said, I have to agree with the above comment, DSF appears to think he and his organization is above scrutiny.
looks like every man for himself now. Heard the other day that one of the options is to scrap C17s and keep the J fleet going for a little while longer until it can be replaced by A400M. Something about the A400M only being 30 kts slower than a C17. Christ, you have to wonder..
The stuff about SF throwing their teddies out of the cot might have some substance, who knows. What is undeniable, is that swathes of military capability, currently being used, or recently having been used is about to be lost, if not forever, at least unavailable in the short to medium term.
That said, I have to agree with the above comment, DSF appears to think he and his organization is above scrutiny.
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Originally Posted by Evalu8ter
Hmmm, taking the "Air" out of SAS eh?
One issue I did spot some time ago is the weak link between the TS taskers and the strat lot - it led on at least one occasion to a brass band enjoying a smooth departure to Cyprus in a Mk4 while on the same day the SAS lost a qualifying jump due to lack of a/c.
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Barnstormer,
I'm so used to some of the mendacious nonsense that has originated from some of the green-suited fraternity recently going back to the old "utterly utterly useless" crack, I might appear to be a bit of a sensitive soul. However I'm sure you're not of that ilk so I apologise for flashing up.
I really would like to know how aware or otherwise the average brown job is about the current state of the RAF while it tries to provide the best support to the Army within considerable constraints. I get the impression that many just think it is the Air Force being utterly utterly useless. Under normal circumstances I'd dry my minge and live with being unappreciated, I don't need adulation for just doing my job and would lose little sleep over my service being dissed in the naafi/mess. However, in the febrile pre-SDSR environment, with the Army apparently in the ascendent, unwarranted gripes about the RAF within the upper echelons of the Army could well influence the outcome of the review with serious long-term implications for UK defence.
I'm so used to some of the mendacious nonsense that has originated from some of the green-suited fraternity recently going back to the old "utterly utterly useless" crack, I might appear to be a bit of a sensitive soul. However I'm sure you're not of that ilk so I apologise for flashing up.
I really would like to know how aware or otherwise the average brown job is about the current state of the RAF while it tries to provide the best support to the Army within considerable constraints. I get the impression that many just think it is the Air Force being utterly utterly useless. Under normal circumstances I'd dry my minge and live with being unappreciated, I don't need adulation for just doing my job and would lose little sleep over my service being dissed in the naafi/mess. However, in the febrile pre-SDSR environment, with the Army apparently in the ascendent, unwarranted gripes about the RAF within the upper echelons of the Army could well influence the outcome of the review with serious long-term implications for UK defence.
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At risk of rehashing old issues and bear in mind that the opinions below are purely my opinion. I have been involved in sport parachuting for almost 30 years now and have been 'around' PTS for nearly all that time. I'm also ex Herc crew, albeit a route Queen.
PTS are a spent force, there is absolutely no reason to continue to train for mass static line parachuting in todays British military. I can see a limited SF role for this, but that does not justify PTS's existence There is clearly a space issue at Future Brize. PTS take up a rather large building and an entire hangar. Can anybody see how PTS can survive the SDSR? We don't have the hours left on either flavour of Herc to waste on S/L training, just so that Para Regt can earn their para pay, trot's out tired old line of 'when was the last British airborne assault'. Any SF S/L requirement could easily be fulfilled by Bragg as would the MFF requirement. The only question that may arise is keeping up aircrew quals, a limited number of PJIs could rotate through Bragg/Hereford on a permanent basis and Herc crews could do a couple of dets a year to Bragg.
Sport Parachuting has always led the way of any Military jumping in this country, both in terms of equipment and techniques and RAF WOTG has always been PTS's eyes on the Sport Para community, they follow what we have been doing for years. Now, I am reliably informed that OC Adventurous Training (AT) has decided to cease all Sport Para at WOTG as of next year. I believe there may be a hiden agenda here though. AT will still continue though. Again this is just another 'reason' to keep WOTG open for the white elephant that PTS has become and to try and keep all para in the light blue basket. If this is the case, do we 'need' two AT dropzones why not consolidate WOTG/Netheravon into one DZ, the obvious choice would be Netheravon.
I am a staunch advocate of Sport/Mil para and I realise that the above appears to go against that, but you just have to do the numbers in todays climate to see that it makes logical sense. If they're talking about binning two new carriers then what chance do PTS have in the big scheme of things.
Just my tuppences worth.
And just to cast out and see what bites, I was selected for and worked for my brevet, unlike PJIs
PTS are a spent force, there is absolutely no reason to continue to train for mass static line parachuting in todays British military. I can see a limited SF role for this, but that does not justify PTS's existence There is clearly a space issue at Future Brize. PTS take up a rather large building and an entire hangar. Can anybody see how PTS can survive the SDSR? We don't have the hours left on either flavour of Herc to waste on S/L training, just so that Para Regt can earn their para pay, trot's out tired old line of 'when was the last British airborne assault'. Any SF S/L requirement could easily be fulfilled by Bragg as would the MFF requirement. The only question that may arise is keeping up aircrew quals, a limited number of PJIs could rotate through Bragg/Hereford on a permanent basis and Herc crews could do a couple of dets a year to Bragg.
Sport Parachuting has always led the way of any Military jumping in this country, both in terms of equipment and techniques and RAF WOTG has always been PTS's eyes on the Sport Para community, they follow what we have been doing for years. Now, I am reliably informed that OC Adventurous Training (AT) has decided to cease all Sport Para at WOTG as of next year. I believe there may be a hiden agenda here though. AT will still continue though. Again this is just another 'reason' to keep WOTG open for the white elephant that PTS has become and to try and keep all para in the light blue basket. If this is the case, do we 'need' two AT dropzones why not consolidate WOTG/Netheravon into one DZ, the obvious choice would be Netheravon.
I am a staunch advocate of Sport/Mil para and I realise that the above appears to go against that, but you just have to do the numbers in todays climate to see that it makes logical sense. If they're talking about binning two new carriers then what chance do PTS have in the big scheme of things.
Just my tuppences worth.
And just to cast out and see what bites, I was selected for and worked for my brevet, unlike PJIs
Last edited by Top Bunk Tester; 27th Sep 2010 at 08:51.
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FWIW, my opinion is that para trained soldiers are required for the multitude of scenarios in which a conventional fixed wing landing cannot take place and which is beyond the range of helicopter insert. Jungles, mountains and tundra come immediately to mind, there will be lots of others. Statistically unlikely I'll grant, but never say never.
Netheravon has sufficient helicopter activity for it to potentially be a conflict of interest were it to be the only DZ. WOTG could survive in the manner of Chetwynd ie no resident staff at all.
Netheravon has sufficient helicopter activity for it to potentially be a conflict of interest were it to be the only DZ. WOTG could survive in the manner of Chetwynd ie no resident staff at all.
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Father Jack
Thanks for that.
I would say in return that a good number of army folks don't understand air power, or tactics, in exactly the same way that many light blue folks don't understand army tactics.
I am not sure how much each service really should know about the others, but it is just as frustrating for me to hear someone who was involved in para training to think it has no place in the modern army!
Operational parachuting may not be paramount, but the training is what separates the paras from other foot infantry units (and why Churchill made his now famous comment about them conquering fear).
I agree with another poster, who feels someone is stirring, and also that many decisions in the SDSR will be as much guided by tabloid headlines as operational needs, which is a scary thought.
The possible further demise of the RAF saddens me, as I feel it has already been slashed beyond any credible role of defending the nation (if we assume that is one of its roles). I don't buy into the fact that newer platforms can be purchased in fewer numbers due to greater effectiveness either, one only has to look at Nimrod to see that we are now left short of proper anti sub (plus the other bits) cover, but still pursuing new SSBN's. That is just madness in all but 'political aspiration' terms.
As for taking the 'A' out of SAS, we have already had SS troops in the UK orbat for a short period, and learned that lesson before!....Hang on, who am I trying to kid in that we 'learn lessons'
Thanks for that.
I would say in return that a good number of army folks don't understand air power, or tactics, in exactly the same way that many light blue folks don't understand army tactics.
I am not sure how much each service really should know about the others, but it is just as frustrating for me to hear someone who was involved in para training to think it has no place in the modern army!
Operational parachuting may not be paramount, but the training is what separates the paras from other foot infantry units (and why Churchill made his now famous comment about them conquering fear).
I agree with another poster, who feels someone is stirring, and also that many decisions in the SDSR will be as much guided by tabloid headlines as operational needs, which is a scary thought.
The possible further demise of the RAF saddens me, as I feel it has already been slashed beyond any credible role of defending the nation (if we assume that is one of its roles). I don't buy into the fact that newer platforms can be purchased in fewer numbers due to greater effectiveness either, one only has to look at Nimrod to see that we are now left short of proper anti sub (plus the other bits) cover, but still pursuing new SSBN's. That is just madness in all but 'political aspiration' terms.
As for taking the 'A' out of SAS, we have already had SS troops in the UK orbat for a short period, and learned that lesson before!....Hang on, who am I trying to kid in that we 'learn lessons'
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RAF dropped special forces into trees by accident.
Dear Father John,
Mendacious nonsense? Interesting article in the Telegraph may explain to you why some of the green-suited fraternity or brown jobs in 1 Para who are recovering in hospital might consider that the RAF, on this occasion at least, were utterly utterly useless. I think that they are probably very aware of the current state of the RAF.
Dear Father John,
Mendacious nonsense? Interesting article in the Telegraph may explain to you why some of the green-suited fraternity or brown jobs in 1 Para who are recovering in hospital might consider that the RAF, on this occasion at least, were utterly utterly useless. I think that they are probably very aware of the current state of the RAF.
S*it happens - I remember vividly the night of 12 Sept 1974, my first JATFOR I think it was called. I think the outcome was reported as something to do with temp inversions (utter ball*cks).
As for, should they shouldn't they - having qualified at both Basic 1973 and MFF, with my latest MFF refresher 1998. They were the best, most professional courses I have ever done with the RAF and that includes CFS
(1989).
Outdated - I don't think so. Expensive yes.
As for, should they shouldn't they - having qualified at both Basic 1973 and MFF, with my latest MFF refresher 1998. They were the best, most professional courses I have ever done with the RAF and that includes CFS
(1989).
Outdated - I don't think so. Expensive yes.
Maybe none of you guys have been reading the NOTAMs lately
It's been a change to have so many Herc movements up here over the last week, And a surprise to have one pass late Saturday night whilst drink was firmly in hand.
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This is all very fine and good, but lets get back to the important issue here - CHOP THE FALCS AS THEY ARE A WASTE OF MONEY !!!!
And like somebody else said, I worked for my brevet
And like somebody else said, I worked for my brevet
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I feel obliged to take the bait on behalf of all those who get their knees in the breeze:
Top Bunk Tester: Selected and worked hard for your brevet...in gash holding jobs in between long courses during which you mostly played X Box in your flying suit and preyed on the women of Lincoln during Tutor training using lines about how you fly fast jets...right? Must've been a killer
c130jbloke: You make no mention of chopping the Dead Sparrows...they can't cost much more than 9 blokes and their parachutes eh?
Studiously ignoring the recent increase in numbers of holding officers from your general direction of late too...
Most of what was written in the DT is bunkum, almost certainly from a disgruntled grunt. Nothing like a bit of fiction to sell papers.
Top Bunk Tester: Selected and worked hard for your brevet...in gash holding jobs in between long courses during which you mostly played X Box in your flying suit and preyed on the women of Lincoln during Tutor training using lines about how you fly fast jets...right? Must've been a killer
c130jbloke: You make no mention of chopping the Dead Sparrows...they can't cost much more than 9 blokes and their parachutes eh?
Studiously ignoring the recent increase in numbers of holding officers from your general direction of late too...Most of what was written in the DT is bunkum, almost certainly from a disgruntled grunt. Nothing like a bit of fiction to sell papers.
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ROGO - Obligingly I'll bite back
If you care to look at my logbook you'll find that I've got my knees in the breeze more times than most (1500+) and have held several instructor ratings.
Think I held for a grand total of 6 weeks, X-boxes were a thing of the future and I organised (in part) the next LYN open day, which was very successful. Was never recoursed. Think the first thing I failed was my squadron route check for fuel handling, which was easily remedied. And I have a Brevet not a pair of wings, so Doncaster was my hunting ground not Lincoln.
Also I think you'll find that the Reds are a little more highly thought of by Joe Public than the Falcs are. If it came to a PR pi55ing contest, guess who would win. I remember the days when there were double digit para display teams from all three services. Some more 'qualified' than others.
If you care to look at my logbook you'll find that I've got my knees in the breeze more times than most (1500+) and have held several instructor ratings.
Think I held for a grand total of 6 weeks, X-boxes were a thing of the future and I organised (in part) the next LYN open day, which was very successful. Was never recoursed. Think the first thing I failed was my squadron route check for fuel handling, which was easily remedied. And I have a Brevet not a pair of wings, so Doncaster was my hunting ground not Lincoln.
Also I think you'll find that the Reds are a little more highly thought of by Joe Public than the Falcs are. If it came to a PR pi55ing contest, guess who would win. I remember the days when there were double digit para display teams from all three services. Some more 'qualified' than others.
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ROGO:
You mean like this post where I went after the Reds:
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Posts: 356 I second MGD ( again ) With people looking down the barrel of unemployment ( seriously unfunny ) its a fair question to ask what is an entire squadron's worth of cost ( at 6.3 mil - my @rse ) doing to justify its existence ? If we are going to chop SSBNs, then the Reds / Falcons / RAFP dog teams and Christ knows what else are more than fair game...
As for jealousy, if its by people who are under threat of losing their jobs when you see what may be considered needless waste ( why do the reds need an SO1 to run the show ? ) then yup, you bet.
This is absolutely nothing personal against anybody, but the prospect of getting a P45 somewhat sharpens the focus.....
And bugger me, having read my own post, I note that I also say get rid of the Falcs
Just so you are aware, don't take it personally as I would chop anything which is not relevant to preserve defence capability as I am thinking about the next war and not the bun fight we have going on right now.
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You mean like this post where I went after the Reds:
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Posts: 356 I second MGD ( again ) With people looking down the barrel of unemployment ( seriously unfunny ) its a fair question to ask what is an entire squadron's worth of cost ( at 6.3 mil - my @rse ) doing to justify its existence ? If we are going to chop SSBNs, then the Reds / Falcons / RAFP dog teams and Christ knows what else are more than fair game...
As for jealousy, if its by people who are under threat of losing their jobs when you see what may be considered needless waste ( why do the reds need an SO1 to run the show ? ) then yup, you bet.
This is absolutely nothing personal against anybody, but the prospect of getting a P45 somewhat sharpens the focus.....
Just so you are aware, don't take it personally as I would chop anything which is not relevant to preserve defence capability as I am thinking about the next war and not the bun fight we have going on right now.
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Rogo
"Most of what was written in the DT is bunkum, almost certainly from a disgruntled grunt".
What exactly was bunkum? That they were from 1 Para? That they were dropped at night? That they were dropped by a RAF C130? That they were dropped in the wrong place? That they were dropped into trees? That 9 were injured and hospitalised?
Damn right it came from a disgruntled grunt. Fortunately a live one (just).
"Most of what was written in the DT is bunkum, almost certainly from a disgruntled grunt".
What exactly was bunkum? That they were from 1 Para? That they were dropped at night? That they were dropped by a RAF C130? That they were dropped in the wrong place? That they were dropped into trees? That 9 were injured and hospitalised?
Damn right it came from a disgruntled grunt. Fortunately a live one (just).