SNCO Aircrew.... Shafted???
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It was an interesting brief! and was blatantly obvious that we were not going to get anything from the outset. No surprises! . .We, AA, are deluding ourselves if we thought there would be any parity between ourselves and the Pilots/Navs. However, what did add salt to the wounds was the FRI given to rearcrew O's. There is no argument that can justify the money that they will be given.
What needs to be addressed is the reality of what we can achieve if and when they complete our survey.. .Suggestions:
They adopt a similar line to Prof Aircrew and incorporate our Flying Pay into the pension calcs?. .Alter the point at which we move onto the Higher Rate of FP. Waiting 22yrs is..... .Allow more opportunities for commissioning?
[ 02 February 2002: Message edited by: Shouting Rad-Alt ]</p>
What needs to be addressed is the reality of what we can achieve if and when they complete our survey.. .Suggestions:
They adopt a similar line to Prof Aircrew and incorporate our Flying Pay into the pension calcs?. .Alter the point at which we move onto the Higher Rate of FP. Waiting 22yrs is..... .Allow more opportunities for commissioning?
[ 02 February 2002: Message edited by: Shouting Rad-Alt ]</p>
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Anyone else notice the announcement in the AFPRB statement that the Additional Pay Review has been put back until 2004. This was supposed to rationalise Flying Pay (similar pay for similar jobs etc), with the outcome being touted of a small increase for the AA, but a substantial cut for the commissioned types doing the same job.
Again, it would seem as if we have been rolled over. JO rearcrew recieving loadsa wonga and still recieving 3 times flying pay, or Prof Aviator terms (therefore bigger pension, bigger gratuity).
Loyalty and respect is a two way process, it must be earned and it cannot be demanded. Sadly, I feel that many AA will now accept the inevitable, the Service they joined with so much enthusiasm and optimism in the mid 80’s is now just a memory.
It's a shame that it has come to this, I really feel sad as I so desparately want to serve, my misplaced sense of Loyalty and Duty drive me to, but there is not a lot more that I can take. And I'm sure that I'm not the only one with similar sentiments.
PS Well done to the SAR boys, professional to the last.
[ 03 February 2002: Message edited by: retard rearcrew ]</p>
Again, it would seem as if we have been rolled over. JO rearcrew recieving loadsa wonga and still recieving 3 times flying pay, or Prof Aviator terms (therefore bigger pension, bigger gratuity).
Loyalty and respect is a two way process, it must be earned and it cannot be demanded. Sadly, I feel that many AA will now accept the inevitable, the Service they joined with so much enthusiasm and optimism in the mid 80’s is now just a memory.
It's a shame that it has come to this, I really feel sad as I so desparately want to serve, my misplaced sense of Loyalty and Duty drive me to, but there is not a lot more that I can take. And I'm sure that I'm not the only one with similar sentiments.
PS Well done to the SAR boys, professional to the last.
[ 03 February 2002: Message edited by: retard rearcrew ]</p>
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I'm off,
I don't think that I could look myself in the mirror with any pride if I chose to stay in till 55 yrs.
After this latest insult, I will be voting with my feet and going to work somewhere that I will feel worthwhile. Somewhere that rewards me for my efforts and doesn't treat me like a 2nd class citizen.
Even though I could keep waiting for the outcome of the flying pay review, the AA review and any other carrot that they can BS me with, I'm off at my 22 yr point and STUFF the lot of'em.
I have swallowed enough personal pride for a life time, there are plenty of rewarding careers out there.
They will never learn
[ 03 February 2002: Message edited by: Ginger Beer ]</p>
I don't think that I could look myself in the mirror with any pride if I chose to stay in till 55 yrs.
After this latest insult, I will be voting with my feet and going to work somewhere that I will feel worthwhile. Somewhere that rewards me for my efforts and doesn't treat me like a 2nd class citizen.
Even though I could keep waiting for the outcome of the flying pay review, the AA review and any other carrot that they can BS me with, I'm off at my 22 yr point and STUFF the lot of'em.
I have swallowed enough personal pride for a life time, there are plenty of rewarding careers out there.
They will never learn
[ 03 February 2002: Message edited by: Ginger Beer ]</p>
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Well it’s the start of another week and I’ve spent some time reflecting on the events of the past 7 days. The dust has just about settled after the retention package announcements and as can be detected on this forum has left airmen aircrew very disenchanted. . . . .In the past 2 years the pay 2000 slap in the face for ALMs, the almost blind panic when AEOps were at first assessed to be under the wire for high band and this latest ‘personnel management masterpiece’ has shown over and over again that we serve in an organisation that has no idea of our role or our skills. Neither fish nor fowl has always been a description of Airman Aircrew. But it has never been more true than today.
As Tuesdays PowerPoint said we have a recruitment problem I wonder just how many people serving at CIOs have actually seen AA during there service let alone have any extra insight to give the prospective AA coming off the street? A large proportion of AA has always been people who fell at the OASC hurdle for Pilot / Nav, is the advice they are given there any more detailed? Talking in the crew room to the new guys and girls just out of the sausage machine leads me to think not. I also wonder how many serving airmen are thinking of remustering to AA? I suspect that the number of retreads has drastically reduced over the last few years, again in a quick tea bar survey of the newer AA a much lower percentage of them have come from the ground trades than the late 80s to mid 90s intakes. I humbly suggest to their airships that much more than a new website or poster campaign is required, also please please use a different agency to the one that produced the ‘limited company’ eyesore!
As for a retention problem, while it is true that Easyjet and Ryainair are not exactly falling over themselves to recruit ALM and AEOps. A steady flow of people are leaving the trades to Pilot, Nav, Rearcrew Off (so what’s a Nav?), even god help them a commission in the Op Support and Supplier branches. I wonder if this is presented in the same way in the manning statistics as NGR/PVR is for officer aircrew? Also a lot of AA will be reaching the 12 and 22 year points for direct entry and ex airman respectively in the next 24 to 48 months. The events of the past two years will hardly encourage them to stay in the mob.
It has been a disappointing week. Well, they say if you can’t take a joke…. I am still very proud to be AA in the RAF. Proud to carry on the tradition of SNCOs with brevets, with their skilful and valiant feats of airmanship in the Battle of Britain, Battle of the Atlantic and the Bomber Offensive. A pride in the job and carrying out the task to the best of our abilities still true today over the stormy skies of the Atlantic and points east of Suez. Well I can still take a joke, but very, very soon I won’t find this funny any more.
Anyone got the number for Australia House? . . <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
As Tuesdays PowerPoint said we have a recruitment problem I wonder just how many people serving at CIOs have actually seen AA during there service let alone have any extra insight to give the prospective AA coming off the street? A large proportion of AA has always been people who fell at the OASC hurdle for Pilot / Nav, is the advice they are given there any more detailed? Talking in the crew room to the new guys and girls just out of the sausage machine leads me to think not. I also wonder how many serving airmen are thinking of remustering to AA? I suspect that the number of retreads has drastically reduced over the last few years, again in a quick tea bar survey of the newer AA a much lower percentage of them have come from the ground trades than the late 80s to mid 90s intakes. I humbly suggest to their airships that much more than a new website or poster campaign is required, also please please use a different agency to the one that produced the ‘limited company’ eyesore!
As for a retention problem, while it is true that Easyjet and Ryainair are not exactly falling over themselves to recruit ALM and AEOps. A steady flow of people are leaving the trades to Pilot, Nav, Rearcrew Off (so what’s a Nav?), even god help them a commission in the Op Support and Supplier branches. I wonder if this is presented in the same way in the manning statistics as NGR/PVR is for officer aircrew? Also a lot of AA will be reaching the 12 and 22 year points for direct entry and ex airman respectively in the next 24 to 48 months. The events of the past two years will hardly encourage them to stay in the mob.
It has been a disappointing week. Well, they say if you can’t take a joke…. I am still very proud to be AA in the RAF. Proud to carry on the tradition of SNCOs with brevets, with their skilful and valiant feats of airmanship in the Battle of Britain, Battle of the Atlantic and the Bomber Offensive. A pride in the job and carrying out the task to the best of our abilities still true today over the stormy skies of the Atlantic and points east of Suez. Well I can still take a joke, but very, very soon I won’t find this funny any more.
Anyone got the number for Australia House? . . <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
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Since they opened the flood-gates to 'alternative' commissioning ie Ops Support, there has been a mass exodus of quality crewmen from SH.
The experienced plastic-pursuit-ship rearcrew who have tried for commissioning within the branch have been told 'sorry mate no slots! However, if you sell your sole to the devil and take a bluntie-branch, I am sure we can come to some arrangement!'.
After this latest anouncement, what is left to discourage the commissionable flying types from leaving the branch for better pensions and a more stable (if less interesting) life?
Percy
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
The experienced plastic-pursuit-ship rearcrew who have tried for commissioning within the branch have been told 'sorry mate no slots! However, if you sell your sole to the devil and take a bluntie-branch, I am sure we can come to some arrangement!'.
After this latest anouncement, what is left to discourage the commissionable flying types from leaving the branch for better pensions and a more stable (if less interesting) life?
Percy
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
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On my (v large) sqn there are only 4 second tourist snco aircrew. When I joined my first sqn in the middle 80s, I was the only first tourist for quite some time. There is an experience vacuum and whilst this IS across the board including the twin winged master-race and the wso balast, it is also very blatent amongst the AA.
I have little time left regardless, and will stay only whilst posted to a place of my choice, in other words a notice of retirement looking for a time and place. Recent events have done nothing to delay that opinion, and like many of my peers, I have no intention of going full term.
Giving the O Rearcrew the incentives without extending that to SNCOs is typical of the Class Britain of many many years ago, how a Labour Government allowed this to happen God only knows. There must be some really good headlines here for the journos that visit these forums on regular occasions. For if I worked for the Daily Whatever I would grip this one and run afar with it.
Yozzer
A previously unchipped shoulder is showing signs of a little crack appearing.
I have little time left regardless, and will stay only whilst posted to a place of my choice, in other words a notice of retirement looking for a time and place. Recent events have done nothing to delay that opinion, and like many of my peers, I have no intention of going full term.
Giving the O Rearcrew the incentives without extending that to SNCOs is typical of the Class Britain of many many years ago, how a Labour Government allowed this to happen God only knows. There must be some really good headlines here for the journos that visit these forums on regular occasions. For if I worked for the Daily Whatever I would grip this one and run afar with it.
Yozzer
A previously unchipped shoulder is showing signs of a little crack appearing.
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ok, so we don't get any retention bonuses. I think a lot of you out there are forgetting one very important thing that sets us apart from the master race and our fellow back enders who've had the op.FREE SHOES!! yes, thought you'd forgotten.So you see, it's not all bad is it? On a serious note, it seems to me that the powers that be couldn't make it more obvious that they couldn't give two hoots about AA, particularly FS and MACR; so maybe if we did all PVR, we'd be playing right into there hands. Anyone remember Cpl aircrew?? get rid of us, they'd have the perfect excuse to put that into action. My advice is stay put just to spite them, and I will be exchanging my shoes even though there's nothing wrong with them, it may take me a while, but I'll get my 30 grands worth!!
It will take you b£oody ages on current form, mate. I've only been waiting 3 months for Boots (Flying) Lightweight Size 8 Medium to turn up in stores.....
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If the full-page ad in the latest issue of ‘Maxim’ for WSOps is anything to go by then the ‘new deal’ may be on a sticky wicket to start with. The ad has two very noble spreads about a SAR crewman and a Surveillance Op on E3. The only mention of maritime is a line to the effect of ‘WSOps used to track submarines but those days have gone.’ That may well be a surprise to the 75% of new guys that will find themselves up the A9 to Kilo. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
lazy fairweather PPRuNer
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**** me circle, if we ever manage to track a submarine it'll come as a surprise to 75% of the people already here as well!
FULL-ON robot chubby dude!
FULL-ON robot chubby dude!
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Thought I'd put in my two penneth.. .Deeply saddend if not at all suprised to see AA shafted once more.. .Looking from the outside (Departed the datum in 96),it seams things go from bad to worse. I still have many contacts inside reflecting concerns expressed in this forum, quality of recruits tempted by such poor management, guys actually wanting frontline posts instead of tunneling out, second tourists/experience on ops. All this means a less effective fighting force. Heaven knows most off the equipment is old to the point of embarassemnt and is made to perform inspite of itself by the expert attention of an experienced crew. So what happens when you lose that experience.....you lose the war your airships!!!. .Ok rant over just to chear you up though guys your training and experience are highly valued outside. I am currently an airline training captain and know that an AA background is very well thought of in this field so don't be cowed. I am very proud of my time, although the grass is not always greener I think I see some new shoots growing.Regards to all JC
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Jim Nic . .Point taken what else would we do in the three 'smartie' tubes if we didn't practice losing subs? . . . .<a href="http://www.airmenaircrew.freeserve.co.uk" target="_blank">www.airmenaircrew.freeserve.co.uk</a>
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I think thems upstairs should commission the lot of you and then we could get rid of this thread.. .Hurrah!. .In a multirank crew structure, ie every role except FJ there are AA who are as critical to the mission as the guys at the front, in the E3 or Nimrod there are even more of you.. .Of course these management consultants (was it Arthur Anderson?) must have been invited to the crewroom at 1600 when the AAs were having Tea.
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Circle Kay. .The problem we have is that we always leave at a natural wastage point ie 12 or 22. This does not flag any warninings at bluntie Hq therefore just recruit more.. .However some of us have taken our right to ngr in between these points. As before we will winge, a working group will be/is being formed and nothing will change. We were lied to about it being a review of additional pay, I never expected a retention bonus, but I did expect a review. I do have the number that your interested in and in addition I have found out that my Aircrew training and experience will get me straight off bins and on to fries. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
On a lighter note Iron Clog do you still need cushions to see over the dash.. .Bet you never see Windsurfers in formation behind ships 400 miles out at sea anymore?. .I know what/who you did in Sigonella! <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
Email me for beer a couple of us are just round the corner from you. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
On a lighter note Iron Clog do you still need cushions to see over the dash.. .Bet you never see Windsurfers in formation behind ships 400 miles out at sea anymore?. .I know what/who you did in Sigonella! <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
Email me for beer a couple of us are just round the corner from you. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
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Eviltwin,. .If they came into the sqn at 1600 they certainly wouldn't have seen any AEOs or Navs perhaps that’s where they got the impression that we were short of them
Charlie,. .If I mention your name, do you think I’ll get to start with two stars as well? At least that particular organisation is happy to admit its lead by a clown. . <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Charlie,. .If I mention your name, do you think I’ll get to start with two stars as well? At least that particular organisation is happy to admit its lead by a clown. . <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
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We do have commissioned friends - guys who have helped in particular with the AEOp High banding issue.
Ice Station Kilo certainly seems to be organising - and to that end we need rational, sensible opinions. Other stations with AA take note, please....whatever we ALL say and do must be cohesive (!)and accurate. To the point.
Initial polls indicate 22 year options are gonna be exercised within the next 2 to 4 years.
That's a lot of AA...
Ice Station Kilo certainly seems to be organising - and to that end we need rational, sensible opinions. Other stations with AA take note, please....whatever we ALL say and do must be cohesive (!)and accurate. To the point.
Initial polls indicate 22 year options are gonna be exercised within the next 2 to 4 years.
That's a lot of AA...
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Right guys hear are the real problems.
1. If you leave at 22 years no bells and whistles go off anywhere. This was demonstrated by the fact they called it a recruitment and not a retention problem? The only way that people will be concerned is if people begin to pvr in numbers and that won`t happen. To them the outflow appears normal but the inflow is **** hence no bonus (recruitment not retention)
2. How has this review addressed additional pay?
3. If it is R and R payment how can AEOs and slow jet Navs get it. 60 Aeops go for 8-10 slots every year this doesnt seem like a recruitment problem to me. slow navs no longer required.
4. This was for fast jet pilots and navs (fair play) but the rest were just lumped along to appear not to be devisive.
5. Apparantly there is an advert in maxim that discusses the new Wsop brevet and only mentions in passing maratime ie no pictures or interviews unlike Wokker chums and E3d Dudes how **** is that. Reality check most Wsops will go to kinloss and nimrods so why hid it mmmmm i wonder. Get em in then tell them the truth.
6. Beagle so niave for one so old.
7. for all those sitting smug think what will happen when they no longer need you ( fast jet nav EFA ect)
THIS IS NOT A DIG AT ANYONE GOOD LUCK TO ALL THOSE THAT GOT IT BUT JUST THINK NEXT TIME YOU MIGHT BE OUT OF FAVOUR TOO THEN WHO WILL SHOUT FOR YOU???
"IF YOU TOLERATE THIS THEN YOUR CHILDREN WILL BE NEXT"
please ignore all spelling and grammer errors but i`m fizzing and can`t be ars'd.
1. If you leave at 22 years no bells and whistles go off anywhere. This was demonstrated by the fact they called it a recruitment and not a retention problem? The only way that people will be concerned is if people begin to pvr in numbers and that won`t happen. To them the outflow appears normal but the inflow is **** hence no bonus (recruitment not retention)
2. How has this review addressed additional pay?
3. If it is R and R payment how can AEOs and slow jet Navs get it. 60 Aeops go for 8-10 slots every year this doesnt seem like a recruitment problem to me. slow navs no longer required.
4. This was for fast jet pilots and navs (fair play) but the rest were just lumped along to appear not to be devisive.
5. Apparantly there is an advert in maxim that discusses the new Wsop brevet and only mentions in passing maratime ie no pictures or interviews unlike Wokker chums and E3d Dudes how **** is that. Reality check most Wsops will go to kinloss and nimrods so why hid it mmmmm i wonder. Get em in then tell them the truth.
6. Beagle so niave for one so old.
7. for all those sitting smug think what will happen when they no longer need you ( fast jet nav EFA ect)
THIS IS NOT A DIG AT ANYONE GOOD LUCK TO ALL THOSE THAT GOT IT BUT JUST THINK NEXT TIME YOU MIGHT BE OUT OF FAVOUR TOO THEN WHO WILL SHOUT FOR YOU???
"IF YOU TOLERATE THIS THEN YOUR CHILDREN WILL BE NEXT"
please ignore all spelling and grammer errors but i`m fizzing and can`t be ars'd.
Ah Sandy,
When you learn thatvthe services are run by Officer for the benefot of other Officers you will not be surprised that NCO's and ORs are ALWAYS shafted when money, perks, leave etc are up for re-allocation.
Took me many years to realise this, but once I had, all became clear.
Best of lick
Doc C.
When you learn thatvthe services are run by Officer for the benefot of other Officers you will not be surprised that NCO's and ORs are ALWAYS shafted when money, perks, leave etc are up for re-allocation.
Took me many years to realise this, but once I had, all became clear.
Best of lick
Doc C.