Chinook - Still Hitting Back 3 (Merged)

[Sand4Gold]

If we took all the mud-slinging away, I do find some of Walter's replies thought provoking. Recent posts by nigegilb and tiarna, in response, do invite questions that remain unanswered.

However, I do not believe there was a secondary mission that day.

I was in the planning room with the crew and in the crew room pre-flight. I even remember jealously looking at their planned route and particularly at the golf clubs ready to be loaded. It was a thinly disguised golf jolly for a bunch of senior officials who deserved the break.

I agree with Jayteeto here, I met Jon as he was descending the stairs - opposite the entrance to the Sqn - he had just retrieved his survival equipment. I recall him being slightly tired and I got the impression that if he had had a choice he would of preferred not to have flown anymore that day.

What caused the accident? I do not know, neither does Walter. Again, I still think the debate should be allowed to continue without restrictions being placed on individuals. Something may come of it; stranger things have happened.

AA

[Chugalug2]

AA, I hope that your post will encourage everyone to just take stock. We seem to have arrived at a stage where the consensus is represented as a tacit agreement to sit on our hands and wait for a SoS to announce on his way out of the office for the last time that; "By the way, those pilots in the Mull Chinook were not guilty of Gross Negligence after all". That has been the case for the last 8 months or so. The result has been a fractured and often irritable spat at most in the way of discussion. Most who post here are, or were, professionals in Military Aviation. If the majority, who believe Wratten and Day's verdict to have been very wrong, are honest there has to be a core reason for the crash. Unlike Walter I feel that the Airworthiness cloud that hung over this fleet culminating in the unprecedented scenario of a type which BD would not fly though the Squadrons were obliged to holds the key. If that is a likely cause then it should be examined minutely. Why? Because Military Airworthiness implementation was not only found wanting on this Fleet, but on Tornado, Sea King, Nimrod and Hercules, all of which suffered fatal accidents, all of which had airworthiness shortcomings that were causal factors. The MOD's stewardship of Airworthiness Provision is a boil that must be lanced and swiftly too, or this forum will have further lengthy anguished threads like this one. W&D's Red Herring is obvious for what it is, a disgrace to a proud service. If the RAF does not want to go down with the MOD it should disown the verdict, and them, without delay.

[Arkroyal]

Caz,

SH = Support Helicopters

SF = Special Forces

I believe you have zero experience in SH. Any fixed wing experience with SF is irrelevant to this arguement.

I (meaning 'one') spent a long time in SH sometimes involved with SF. I would ask expert opinion before forming any views on the competence of a truckie. Maybe you could glean some expert opinion on SH from these posts and digest them.

[tiarna]

I think Walters' slight outburst unfortunate, he has unwaveringly followed a track that perhaps frustration has taken a toll. Even if he is wrong, his probing is exacting and thorough. Unless anyone can give the exact cause of the crash then no avenue should be left unexplored. Perhaps some could be more co-operative with him rather than taking the first oppurtunity they can to denigrate and obstruct his investigation. No theories on this crash put forward to date have been without holes. If all the facts are known then the best fit theory can be determined. Shouting down Walters' theory for ones own preferred version does not mean his is wrong, especially if there are other facts having gone unconsidered.
If ARS-6 was or was not fitted is still debatable regardless of who said it was not --there could have been an operational or other consideration as to why that information might have been withheld. For those of you with sufficient experience may have come across such cases where the Freedom of Information Act does not tread.

[dervish]

why don't you simply write to the MoD and use the Freedom of Information Act?

For those of you with sufficient experience may have come across such cases where the Freedom of Information Act does not tread.

My understanding of the Act is that information provided under it does not have to be accurate. I think someone posted about this before but maybe not on this thread.

[walter kennedy]

Chugalug2
<<... the unprecedented scenario of a type which BD would not fly though the Squadrons were obliged to holds the key.>>
I agree - and with those VIPs on board - perhaps it had after all been planned to use this a/c weeks beforehand and it was a damn nuisance for the planners that BD took this step - I think you should all do your best to look at the planning of this flight.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Walter,

I have asked before but can you please tell us how the equipment you mention actually got fitted to the aircaft in question, who fitted it, who briefed the crew on how to operate it and who briefed the authorising officer for the trip on what was going to happen?

[tiarna]

Seldomfitforpurpose,

Good god man! have you not followed Walters' posts?? He has gained some information that suggests there was an STF involved with this aircraft --all the difficulty you and others have been having with him is his repeated attempts at confirming the very questions that you yourself are now asking of him! I will spell it out for you --If --HE --KNEW --THE --ANSWERS --TO --THOSE --QUESTIONS --HE --PROBABLY --WOULD --NOT --BE --ASKING.
T.

PS: Now I understand W. frustration!!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

tiarna

I spent the first 14 years of my service life as an aircraft technician and my question from early this morning is as valid now as it has been when previously asked. I know how new equipment gets fitted to aircraft.......do you

The question I have asked is quite simple and therefore should not be too difficult to answer. All I am asking is, if the supposed secret equipment was installed then how come after all this time not a soul has come forward to tell us about it?

It would have needed some sort of installation process by aircraft engineers whether they be from 7 Sqn itself, some external agency (IPT etc) or Boeing are you seriously suggesting someone would not have exposed it by now

Lets suppose that the kit was on board then who conducted the relevant training for the aircrew who would fly and operate said equipment, surely after all this time someone would have come forward from that empire to let the cat out of the bag.

Now lets suppose that the installation and training was all done in complete secrecy and has remained buried............. what about the crews themselves.

7 SF is a very close knit community would you have us believe that apart from the 4 crew members souls who sadly perished not a single other soul would have had even the remotest idea about Walter suggests

Do you then suggest that the authorising officer or any of the other senior management involved have kept quiet all this time out of some sort of loyalty to the "System"

The cynic in me tells me that with that many folk involved there is simply no way it could have stayed covered up this long and despite "He has gained some information that suggests there was an STF involved with this aircraft" I for one wait for him to produce something more substantial than the continued supposition that he has shown us to date

[tiarna]

SFFP

You make a valid point regarding the fit process, and it is possibly one that walter would be unable to answer, but that does not make him wrong either. I do get your point --and also Walter's, but they are not each mutually exclusive. That a secondary op was involved I think unlikely but had something been fitted or removed then that may have contributed to the crash. If these pilots are responsible for this crash then it is not because they were negligent. Given all the known facts, the aircraft had questionable safety records, the pilots knew this, they also knew the area they were flying in and the conditions, airspeed etc....if the crash is their fault, then negligence is out of the question, because they knowingly and with some certainty would have intended to crash. It is much too mind boggling to consider that they switched of all caution and --will to live even. If they are are not to blame then the cause was due to the aircraft and equipment specifically. I believe the pilots did not have a suicide pact, therefore that can only mean that 'at least' one piece of the equipment jigsaw is missing. That could mean something that was on the aircraft at time of impact or had been removed prior to the flight. Walter's theory need not entirely be true but some of it can have been the cause. A theory is just that --neither proved or disproved. So yes you are right but so is he until the final poeces of the jigsaw can be found or accurately determined.

T.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

I know it's late on friday and I have had several beers................but what the f@ck is that last post all about................

[tiarna]

Seldomfitforpurpose

You wrote

Pretty obnoxious even by your standards Walter. You ask questions and when you do not like the answers you simply throw insults and stamp your petty little feet

I thought Seldomfitforpurpose was just your log in name not your whole way of life!!

T.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Walter/tiarna................................................:confu sed:

[walter kennedy]

SFFP
For the benefit of readers who recently started or just occassionally drop into this thread who may think you have a valid rebuttal I will explain a couple of the points you have raised.
<< ... I know how new equipment gets fitted to aircraft.....>> and
<<It would have needed some sort of installation process by aircraft engineers whether they be from 7 Sqn itself, some external agency (IPT etc) or Boeing ...>>
A long time ago, I asked for someone on this thread to explain how it was fitted but initially no one came forward – and still no one has on the open forum;
a manufacturer disclosed a configuration for several units as delivered to the RAF in 1995 along with an idea of the interface with the a/c and what was involved in the fit;
subsequently PM and other follow up contact off the forum has confirmed the description I had along with trial dates that confirm its presence in early 95 in some RAF Chinooks;
the description was basically a self contained unit with minimal interface requirements that could be fitted or dismounted in about 30 minutes – designed for ease of exchange between Chinooks.
Are you familiar with this equipment and how it was fitted? (The level of personnel and the details would surely be of general interest to many.)
.
<<... if the supposed secret equipment was installed then how come after all this time not a soul has come forward to tell us about it?>> and
<<7 SF is a very close knit community would you have us believe that apart from the 4 crew members souls who sadly perished not a single other soul would have had even the remotest idea about Walter suggests>>
Time for some soul searching – someone who posts regularly and appears to have had considerable experience at a senior engineering level told me that he had tried asking colleagues (with whom he said he had had good relations) about this system – he said he got a very frosty response – seems to be a taboo subject within the RAF – it's no secret in other NATO countries, although they don't actually splash it around for the public – it is used for so many different roles, some of which are understandably sensitive – perhaps it has unhappy connotations here?
.
<<... who conducted the relevant training for the aircrew who would fly and operate said equipment ...>>
I have asked this question a long time ago as to when the equipment was first installed and trialled, when was this, who, etc – presumably for sufficient familiarity and training so as to justify ordering multiple units and time for training for Bosnia (early 95 when it was definitely fitted to several RAF Chinooks) there must have been at least one set available earlier in 94.
Flt Lt Tapper I believe had the reputation of being one of the most up to date and capable officers in the area of navigation and avionics – he would be the #1 choice for evaluating such gear for SH.
It is not that difficult to use, it is intrinsically very accurate, and the Mull with its fixed local weather was an ideal site for a demo hardly being a deviation from their route. Don't forget that it was described as a training flight at one of the inquiries – the explanation given being something like shortage of time/opportunity/allocation of assets for training such that often some training aspect was thrown into flights with other main objectives.
.
<<Now lets suppose that the installation and training was all done in complete secrecy and has remained buried............. what about the crews themselves. >>
Two members of separate crews of Chinooks who have said that they had used the equipment have come forward.
.
<<Do you then suggest that the authorising officer or any of the other senior management involved have kept quiet all this time out of some sort of loyalty to the "System">>
Who knows – stuff that has been secret since WW2 is still being revealed for the first time to the public – this crash had significant consequences for a large chunk of Britain.
.
<<"He has gained some information that suggests there was an STF involved with this aircraft">>
Not quite right – as I have explained in a fairly recent post when the STF issue first cropped up:
The work that was done on ZD576 just before its final flight was described to me as having the mounting pallette (of the ARS6 unit) resecured as it had come adrift by almost 2 inches from the deck;
someone else commented that this was symptomatic of a Special Trials Fit as often, when such fits are done “in the field”, the wrong anti-vibration mounts are used (they have to suit the weight of the equipment, the main vibe frequency of the particular a/c, etc and yet so many look so similar that ones with the wrong characteristics are fitted).
That is to say, the work done suggested an STF needed correction – which in turn suggests that something had been fitted in that less formal way – a common occurrence, I am told.
What else could have been stuck hurriedly into that nice refurbished a/c?
Don't forget that the work was not said to have been on the familiar control palletes – it was said to have been on the GPS (as I've said before, I always had misgivings about this reason) and no formal paperwork was raised.
If the work had been on the control pallettes I am sure that, in the light of the BD grounding, there would have been some paperwork or other fallout/discussion with superiors, etc.before the flight.
.
Do not forget the thrust of my main argument:
For some time I have suggested that analysis of the flight and some research into helicopter operations has it most likely that they were heading for a known landing area with the intention of landing or a close wave-off;
that they were using a SAR exercise call sign;
that they misjudged or were misled as to their range from it during approach;
and that this latter point, in the particular conditions on the Mull that day, was the critical factor, there being no room for an overshoot and their reduced power state with the commencement of slowing down limited their capability in terms of immediate manouevres.
The evidence strongly supports the above and you need not delve into any further “conspiracy theories” to debate amongst yourselves and investigate what they may have been tasked with – any so far undisclosed activity identified now gets their names cleared for sure.
The particular equipment that seems so contentious is just my considered suggestion as a candidate that could have misled them - very simply by the groundside handset having been erroneously or wilfully ˝ mile or so up the slope from the LZ where the crew were expecting it to be – this equipment is intrinsically very accurate and is trusted by helo crews in the most difficult operational conditions.
My personal hypothesis, with no evidence for it whatsoever, extrapolates the above scenario based upon the conflict of interest between on the one hand a branch of the intelligence services that was serving the government interest in getting a final solution to the problems in NI based upon secret negotiations with the terrorists
and on the other hand the team on board whose objectives at the meeting at Fort George (as I have posted some time back) included more aggressive action against the terrorists and whose members were not at all enthusiastic about the peace process.
The cease fire became effective only a month or so after the crash, the main obstacle to it having been removed.
I believe that that particular branch of the intelligence services, with the support of some in positions of real power, somehow pushed the idea of a demo onto the MOD.
I believe that any such conspiracy would not have been known to the RAF but that it was suggested that disclosure of any such exercise would be a serious embarrassment with serious repercussions – hence the cover up.
Just my thoughts – don't get hung up on them – just use the first bit (exposing the exercise) to get some justice for the crew.

[jayteeto]

OK you win, I give up. I can't believe it has got to this, to be there first hand on the day obviously has no significance because people are actually supporting this theory. Even if the kit was fitted and authorised, they wouldn't have flown the profile like they did. Brian, good luck with the campaign to clear two of my friends, I won't post again here.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Walter,

So correct me if I am wrong but after all these years, all your investigation and all your posts you still do not have one single piece of substantiated evidence to support your theory

[Chugalug2]

jayteeto, sffp, I understand the irritation you feel with Walter's theory and how it doesn't match any likely scenario that you can envisage. You may well be right and he wrong, but at least he has posted an explanation of how this accident occurred, albeit without:

one single piece of substantiated evidence

To my knowledge no-one else has either, including the BOI and Wratten and Day,
All the eggs in this thread’s basket are with the hope of an MOD reprieve. It seems to me to be an ever less likely possibility. What was done was a blatant injustice, clear to many within and without Military Aviation. It was done for a purpose, ie there was much at stake. Presumably there still is. Eventually this stand-off must end. Then whence? Ancient Aviator pleads for discussion to continue. So do I. As to the “I was around then and can tell you that….”, I was around Borneo in the early 60’s during Confrontation. All the drops that we did were inside the Malaysian Border, yards only in some cases, but all inside. If you had asked me if UK troops made incursions into Indonesian territory and were even supply dropped there I would have said you were wrong. It would now appear that I would be wrong, despite having been there….

[tiarna]

Jayteeto I think you are responding to your emotions more than logic --even if Walter is wrong. I will confess I have on occassion considered something close to his own suspicion --considering the ceasefire --a lot of memoirs will not be written by those closest to what was a very dirty war. It was no more than a suspicion of mine but walter would probably be right in that RAF would not know. It came to me as a momentary suspicion many years ago.

SFFP will you ever get a grip and attempt something more original than your sardonic oneliners. Big deal you have 14 years experince with NI --will I have have longer and I know sh*t happened and was kept off the books or people 'were there but not there' if you can unravel that one? Further in case you have not noticed the whole campaign to clear the pilots has not succeeded yet so stop nitpicking with Walter's efforts just because you cannot understand things. The whole world is full of things that we do not understand --that does not mean they do not exist.


Chugalug2, very well put.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Tiara

As well as 14 years as a technician I also have 20 years flying experience as an ALM, and in my 34 years of service to date I have found that, in general secrets seldom stay secrets for ever

In this case for Walters theory to hold water there simply would have been far too many people involved for something not to have emerged by now. Imagine the amount of folk that would have been involved with the procurement, fitting, training, operating and authorising for his scenario to take place, then you can quickly see why I find it impossible to believe that that many folk would have stayed quiet, out of loyalty alone for this length of time.

Walter paints a very good picture of what he believes happened but as I said before he has not one shred of hard evidence to back his theory up.
In the same way that he is, and rightly so I might add, free to continue to espouse his opinion I will continue to exercise my right to question him in the manner I do, although you may have noticed that when questioned on some specific matter he shys away from the only credible answer

[paddyfactor]

Whilst not agreeing with Walters theory, it is true that elements of the security services did capitalise on this crash. My fathers entire department was subsumed by a group of ex public school boys with questionable motives something he had fought tooth and nail while alive. Capitalising and organising however are two different things.

There may be an element to Walters posting that does have some relevance and that concerns airworthiness issues in retro fitting items to MOD aircraft. It is this avenue that is worth exploring particularly in light of other airworthiness issues circulating at the moment. It is also due to these issues that Brian might be waiting for rather a long time for any info from the part timer in Westminster. The MOD is running scared from airworthiness criticism and to review the Chinook at this particular time will only highten other deficiencies in the MODs cavalier attitude to airworthiness.

Also I would say to Walter that of all those on that helicopter my father was probably the biggest advocate of aggressive action. Despite this he was fully cogniscent of what was happening in the halls of NIO and had long ago resigned himself to the lack of political will in dealing with terrorists on our own soil. He was a civil servant like all the rest and not an agitator. As a servant he was not in a position to block any peace process and nor would he have wanted to. Also despite his energy and drive even he was tired of looking under his car every morning. There is no motive here, no requirement for convenient accidents. Truth is my father didnt even want to go to the conference and the thing he was most looking forward to was the fishing.

Something went badly wrong that day and we'll never know what it was. Lets just hope some one develops a conscience and finally does the right thing.

On a good note though I bought a new fishing rod the other day and as soon as the weather improves my son and I are going to try it out.

Good luck Brian and thanks again for all your hard work.