Nimrod MRA.4
Leon
They can't be BAES engineers, he's managed to get from design to taxi trials in only 12 months!!!
Got to love the way the engine is sat running with no-one in the "cockpit". Can't wait to see the taxy trials!!
They can't be BAES engineers, he's managed to get from design to taxi trials in only 12 months!!!
Got to love the way the engine is sat running with no-one in the "cockpit". Can't wait to see the taxy trials!!
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Mart MD
It's been a difficult and trying time for many of us but some more so. I hope things work out, take care of yourself, it was certainly an education for me!
And yes, it was an impressive sight to behold.
Best regards
SFO
And yes, it was an impressive sight to behold.
Best regards
SFO
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I had the displeasure of contracting for/at BAe Warton for a number of weeks, not in engineering I hasten to add, sure I was getting paid well but the displeasuring point was banging one's head against a brick wall constantly.
Just as an example they had a regular HS125 (or whatever it is called these days) run to/from Kazakstan, to plan the route, and fuel stop, BAe had a map on the desk and a 12" ruler. When I suggested they might invest in a globe and a piece of string, to guestimate the great circle track between the two points, I was frowned upon, it was obvious that they had no idea what I was talking about, to BAe Warton the world is flat!
This was a regular run and they would fuel stop in Kiev, I knew from experience that the great circle would route them over Moscow or St. Petersburg, they were overspending by an hour or so's flying time in each direction but, hey, we don't care about expenditure.
Another day a Hawk slid off the end of one runway, no fire, no foam dispensed etc, Warton is a commercial airfield yet adopting their (amateur) military way they declared the airfield 'black' for most of the day which totally screwed all their staff movements etc. I've worked in RAF ATC, there was an aircraft incident, so what, the fire service attended, no action necessary, let's get on with it, BAe make a mountain out of a molehill, it seems, in whatever they do, money is of no object!
Now go figure how 3.5bn, or whatever figure it is, may have been justified!
Just as an example they had a regular HS125 (or whatever it is called these days) run to/from Kazakstan, to plan the route, and fuel stop, BAe had a map on the desk and a 12" ruler. When I suggested they might invest in a globe and a piece of string, to guestimate the great circle track between the two points, I was frowned upon, it was obvious that they had no idea what I was talking about, to BAe Warton the world is flat!
This was a regular run and they would fuel stop in Kiev, I knew from experience that the great circle would route them over Moscow or St. Petersburg, they were overspending by an hour or so's flying time in each direction but, hey, we don't care about expenditure.
Another day a Hawk slid off the end of one runway, no fire, no foam dispensed etc, Warton is a commercial airfield yet adopting their (amateur) military way they declared the airfield 'black' for most of the day which totally screwed all their staff movements etc. I've worked in RAF ATC, there was an aircraft incident, so what, the fire service attended, no action necessary, let's get on with it, BAe make a mountain out of a molehill, it seems, in whatever they do, money is of no object!
Now go figure how 3.5bn, or whatever figure it is, may have been justified!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Eureka moment.
By grounding the MR2 we proved that the Nimrod was not essential to the present war.
By replacing the Harrier with the Tornado ...............
Similarly by withdrawing the Jaguar ...............
Not using tanks .............
Essentially we have the implementation of what Dannatt was espousing 2 years ago.
After the war is over then the Sentinel goes - same logic.
Now if we could be assured that we only get the kit we need when we need it the roses will bloom in Picardy.
By grounding the MR2 we proved that the Nimrod was not essential to the present war.
By replacing the Harrier with the Tornado ...............
Similarly by withdrawing the Jaguar ...............
Not using tanks .............
Essentially we have the implementation of what Dannatt was espousing 2 years ago.
After the war is over then the Sentinel goes - same logic.
Now if we could be assured that we only get the kit we need when we need it the roses will bloom in Picardy.
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SFO
I had the pleasure of working with yourself and many others from Kinloss, Woodford, Warton, Farnborough when I worked on MRA4 from 2002 to 2007. At times it was a frustrating project and not without difficulties but I wish everyone all the best after this baffling decision. I've been through it myself a few years so I know what it feels like to have all that you've worked on to be suddenly negated by a decision you have no control over.
JT
I had the pleasure of working with yourself and many others from Kinloss, Woodford, Warton, Farnborough when I worked on MRA4 from 2002 to 2007. At times it was a frustrating project and not without difficulties but I wish everyone all the best after this baffling decision. I've been through it myself a few years so I know what it feels like to have all that you've worked on to be suddenly negated by a decision you have no control over.
JT
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Gentlemen,
Do I take it that no one at all from KSS or within the RAF as a whole is going to make a stand of some sort to try and reverse this decision? What about going through the KSS history archives and put together a brief history of the Station, the aircraft, the Ops, SAR etc. etc and get someone to present it to the local MP or better still get a delegation to present to the good Dr Fox or the PM himself?
I would urge you not to simply role over and accept it. Get together and show some passion to the RAF airships, the MPs, government et al. I have no doubt that the British public are 100% behind you, but you need to fight for this guys and you undoubtedly receive huge support.
It is obvious that CAS, ACAS and probably many other VSO's don't have a pair of b$ll$cks between them all! I don't hear any public condemnation by any VSO's of any of the services, so I would suggest that you are going to have to do it yourselves(but thats nothing new)
I have written to my MP and explained to him in no uncertain terms that he needs to take a good look at his history books and use just a modicum of common sence here. An island nation and we do not have a single Maritime Patrol Aircraft. It's unbelievable to me frankly, and I intend to my utmost to get the decision reversed (albeit small and limited)
So come on guys, don't just simply give up. Use all that maritime cunning and experience you have and mount some kind of serious objective anger at this outrageous decsion.
Best wishes to all at ISK
Winco
Do I take it that no one at all from KSS or within the RAF as a whole is going to make a stand of some sort to try and reverse this decision? What about going through the KSS history archives and put together a brief history of the Station, the aircraft, the Ops, SAR etc. etc and get someone to present it to the local MP or better still get a delegation to present to the good Dr Fox or the PM himself?
I would urge you not to simply role over and accept it. Get together and show some passion to the RAF airships, the MPs, government et al. I have no doubt that the British public are 100% behind you, but you need to fight for this guys and you undoubtedly receive huge support.
It is obvious that CAS, ACAS and probably many other VSO's don't have a pair of b$ll$cks between them all! I don't hear any public condemnation by any VSO's of any of the services, so I would suggest that you are going to have to do it yourselves(but thats nothing new)
I have written to my MP and explained to him in no uncertain terms that he needs to take a good look at his history books and use just a modicum of common sence here. An island nation and we do not have a single Maritime Patrol Aircraft. It's unbelievable to me frankly, and I intend to my utmost to get the decision reversed (albeit small and limited)
So come on guys, don't just simply give up. Use all that maritime cunning and experience you have and mount some kind of serious objective anger at this outrageous decsion.
Best wishes to all at ISK
Winco
SFO
Having spoken to others close to the project, you are being economical with the truth with 10 to the -15 zone risk argument.
What about the failures in the flap brackets?
What about the under-tension fuel pipes?
What about the big bolts that weren't torqued or locked properly?
Why have they spent over 7 months redrafting the safety case?
What about the paperwork discrepancies?
I don't know the full ins and outs but others on the program do not share your view! It would seem that these issues and the company's involvement in XV230 meant that everything was under scrutiny and the more stones that were overturned, the more issues were found. If the user has no confidence in the product then why buy it? Hence we didn't (even though we threw away billions).
LJ
Having spoken to others close to the project, you are being economical with the truth with 10 to the -15 zone risk argument.
What about the failures in the flap brackets?
What about the under-tension fuel pipes?
What about the big bolts that weren't torqued or locked properly?
Why have they spent over 7 months redrafting the safety case?
What about the paperwork discrepancies?
I don't know the full ins and outs but others on the program do not share your view! It would seem that these issues and the company's involvement in XV230 meant that everything was under scrutiny and the more stones that were overturned, the more issues were found. If the user has no confidence in the product then why buy it? Hence we didn't (even though we threw away billions).
LJ
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has anyone challenged Liam Fox over thecomment in his leaked letter....
He said...
Now that Nimrod is gone, where does it leave the country as regards these threats. Obviously the answer is 'up sh!t chreek' but I would like ot hear either Dr Fox or Call Me Dave's answer.
He said...
Deletion of the Nimrod MR4 will limit our ability to deploy maritime forces rapidly into high-threat areas, increase the risk to the Deterrent, compromise maritime CT (counter terrorism), remove long range search and rescue, and delete one element of our Falklands reinforcement plan.
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I had the displeasure of contracting for/at BAe Warton for a number of weeks, not in engineering I hasten to add, sure I was getting paid well but the displeasuring point was banging one's head against a brick wall constantly.
Just as an example they had a regular HS125 (or whatever it is called these days) run to/from Kazakstan, to plan the route, and fuel stop, BAe had a map on the desk and a 12" ruler. When I suggested they might invest in a globe and a piece of string, to guestimate the great circle track between the two points, I was frowned upon, it was obvious that they had no idea what I was talking about, to BAe Warton the world is flat!
This was a regular run and they would fuel stop in Kiev, I knew from experience that the great circle would route them over Moscow or St. Petersburg, they were overspending by an hour or so's flying time in each direction but, hey, we don't care about expenditure.
Another day a Hawk slid off the end of one runway, no fire, no foam dispensed etc, Warton is a commercial airfield yet adopting their (amateur) military way they declared the airfield 'black' for most of the day which totally screwed all their staff movements etc. I've worked in RAF ATC, there was an aircraft incident, so what, the fire service attended, no action necessary, let's get on with it, BAe make a mountain out of a molehill, it seems, in whatever they do, money is of no object!
Just as an example they had a regular HS125 (or whatever it is called these days) run to/from Kazakstan, to plan the route, and fuel stop, BAe had a map on the desk and a 12" ruler. When I suggested they might invest in a globe and a piece of string, to guestimate the great circle track between the two points, I was frowned upon, it was obvious that they had no idea what I was talking about, to BAe Warton the world is flat!
This was a regular run and they would fuel stop in Kiev, I knew from experience that the great circle would route them over Moscow or St. Petersburg, they were overspending by an hour or so's flying time in each direction but, hey, we don't care about expenditure.
Another day a Hawk slid off the end of one runway, no fire, no foam dispensed etc, Warton is a commercial airfield yet adopting their (amateur) military way they declared the airfield 'black' for most of the day which totally screwed all their staff movements etc. I've worked in RAF ATC, there was an aircraft incident, so what, the fire service attended, no action necessary, let's get on with it, BAe make a mountain out of a molehill, it seems, in whatever they do, money is of no object!
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Winco, You could do worse than force a Cameron answer to Flarkey's point -
How does that sit with Cameron's statement of August -
Has anyone challenged Liam Fox over the comment in his leaked letter.... He said...
Deletion of the Nimrod MR4 will limit our ability to deploy maritime forces rapidly into high-threat areas, increase the risk to the Deterrent, compromise maritime CT (counter terrorism), remove long range search and rescue, and delete one element of our Falklands reinforcement plan.
Deletion of the Nimrod MR4 will limit our ability to deploy maritime forces rapidly into high-threat areas, increase the risk to the Deterrent, compromise maritime CT (counter terrorism), remove long range search and rescue, and delete one element of our Falklands reinforcement plan.
Attending a parade at the Royal Military Academy, Prime Minister David Cameron told troops and dignitaries the pending cuts would be challenging. "There will be difficult decisions ahead, but I will never forget that defense of the realm is the first duty of any government".
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I've been dipping in and out of this thread as it went along, so please excuse me if my query has an answer further back in here. I haven't been able to find any info concerning it, here, or anywhere else.
With the demise of the MRA4, is this the end of Maritime Patrol role, or are they going to buy 2nd hand P3's, P8's or anything else to take up the Maritime Patrol role?
With the demise of the MRA4, is this the end of Maritime Patrol role, or are they going to buy 2nd hand P3's, P8's or anything else to take up the Maritime Patrol role?
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Tester,
It was a Canadian military Hawk and it would have been during the early part of 2001.
Furthermore, despite being there some weeks I had to be escorted everywhere because, according to BAe's phucked up regime, I needed to be sworn to the official secrets act before I could go anywhere by myself, even to lunch which during the weeks I was there I hadn't been able to eat anything during the day.
My protests that I have been under the official secrets act since I enlisted in the RAF in 1976 fell on unwilling to listen ears, once under the official secrets act it is for life but not according to BAe Systems it isn't!
It was a Canadian military Hawk and it would have been during the early part of 2001.
Furthermore, despite being there some weeks I had to be escorted everywhere because, according to BAe's phucked up regime, I needed to be sworn to the official secrets act before I could go anywhere by myself, even to lunch which during the weeks I was there I hadn't been able to eat anything during the day.
My protests that I have been under the official secrets act since I enlisted in the RAF in 1976 fell on unwilling to listen ears, once under the official secrets act it is for life but not according to BAe Systems it isn't!
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It's the end DG, no alternatives were mentioned on Tuesday.
Could all change in 2015 of course, though I doubt the corporate knowledge will have lasted that long.
BAES are still putting their people to work on the '4 at the moment; I guess if the workers are getting paid they might as well do something productive, if seemingly pointless.
Could all change in 2015 of course, though I doubt the corporate knowledge will have lasted that long.
BAES are still putting their people to work on the '4 at the moment; I guess if the workers are getting paid they might as well do something productive, if seemingly pointless.
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My protests that I have been under the official secrets act since I enlisted in the RAF in 1976 fell on unwilling to listen ears, once under the official secrets act it is for life but not according to BAe Systems it isn't!
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State of play ?
The Nimrod MRA4 was late.
How close was it to being operational ?
Was it any good ?
I do not understand the logic of spending lots of money, and I mean lots.
Then dumping the project, and the money down the drain.
Surely there must be a way of getting some return from the investment ?
Beware the 'beancounters' running the shop !
How close was it to being operational ?
Was it any good ?
I do not understand the logic of spending lots of money, and I mean lots.
Then dumping the project, and the money down the drain.
Surely there must be a way of getting some return from the investment ?
Beware the 'beancounters' running the shop !
Last edited by Stuffy; 22nd Oct 2010 at 12:26.
Gentleman Aviator
allus been a bit confused at "signing the OSA" -*I mean at a very basic level. I have of course signed the OSA and other stuff lots but .....
...... don't think I've ever signed the Road Traffic Act, does that mean they can't do me for speeding???
...... don't think I've ever signed the Road Traffic Act, does that mean they can't do me for speeding???