Nimrod MRA.4
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Alber,
In the last few years I have worked with them guys, many of whom had the pain of the AEW3 project. So many experienced engineers its a huge loss for the UK aircraft industry. I just so sad this is the way it has ended. My memories from Woodford way back in 93 to recent I shall never forget my time with some of the best engineers the United Kingdom has produced in building aircraft. The 146 probably for many the most succesful but these guys who were at Woodford were in full stride and worked endless hours to deliver what they could, they are the ones that tonight are at a loss and It for me has been the biggest pleasure working beside them, they gave us everything. I for one will end my career now on this project but Woodford gave me one last smile of what we can do as British. For that I shall always have and nobody can take that away.
Thank you for giving us RAF engineers something to remember, you guys have no idea what impression you have left at RAF Kinloss and I hope in the next few weeks we shall be allowed to come back down and thank you all for everything.
In the last few years I have worked with them guys, many of whom had the pain of the AEW3 project. So many experienced engineers its a huge loss for the UK aircraft industry. I just so sad this is the way it has ended. My memories from Woodford way back in 93 to recent I shall never forget my time with some of the best engineers the United Kingdom has produced in building aircraft. The 146 probably for many the most succesful but these guys who were at Woodford were in full stride and worked endless hours to deliver what they could, they are the ones that tonight are at a loss and It for me has been the biggest pleasure working beside them, they gave us everything. I for one will end my career now on this project but Woodford gave me one last smile of what we can do as British. For that I shall always have and nobody can take that away.
Thank you for giving us RAF engineers something to remember, you guys have no idea what impression you have left at RAF Kinloss and I hope in the next few weeks we shall be allowed to come back down and thank you all for everything.
Here's a recently published book for everyone to read on the fall of the British Aircraft Industry...
...seemed it was doomed from the lack of Govt action at the end of WWII - too many aircraft and aero-engine manufacturers fighting for too few orders.
Here's a link to a review Empire of the Clouds: When Britain's Aircraft Ruled the World, By James Hamilton-Paterson - Reviews, Books - The Independent
Last sentence says it all "It is also a tale of fudging, incompetence, malice, complacency and ignorance."
...seemed it was doomed from the lack of Govt action at the end of WWII - too many aircraft and aero-engine manufacturers fighting for too few orders.
Here's a link to a review Empire of the Clouds: When Britain's Aircraft Ruled the World, By James Hamilton-Paterson - Reviews, Books - The Independent
Last sentence says it all "It is also a tale of fudging, incompetence, malice, complacency and ignorance."
Join Date: Apr 2007
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I don't work at Woodford and I certainly do not work for BAE Systems. The comment was for fellow guys in the civvy sector. The comment was in regards to others slating them off. The announcement's today are going to make a lot more people redundant than the 42,000 odd posts from the MoD.
Tomorrows full spending review is going to send the country back into recession big time I think.
Tomorrows full spending review is going to send the country back into recession big time I think.
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Was lucky enough to do two tours at Kinloss totally over half of the thirteen years I served. Very saddened by today's news and my best wishes for the future to all those there affected by todays announcement. At least I will be able to say that I was lucky enough to have played a part in supporting the Kipper Fleet and enjoyed the unique atmosphere that ISK had.
I was once told by a teacher that the only man to set foot in the House of Commons in posession of integrity, honest intentions and a clear plan was Guy Fawkes. How right you were Mr Morrison.
I was once told by a teacher that the only man to set foot in the House of Commons in posession of integrity, honest intentions and a clear plan was Guy Fawkes. How right you were Mr Morrison.
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RumPunch, you posted what I was thinking. Here is the end of something we've been good at, innovative engineering. It's sad to see the end of a long legacy of important British achievements in aviation, from A V Roe's early biplanes through to the Lancaster, Lincoln, 748, Vulcan, 146, ATP (oh alright then), Bucc and Vulcan refits during FI. I'm glad you mentioned the Nimrod AEW fiasco too. I suppose the question is does anyone care? I know I do. My heart goes out to the men and women who would have applied themselves to making MRA4 a worthy successor to AVRO's history, only to see their efforts dashed. What now then for this sceptred isle?
The problem is that engineers that care have no voice at a company that only cares about share prices and share holders.
You also need to ask the question why the 1st and only MRA4 aircraft was delivered in March 2010 and we still weren't flying it in October 2010? Why did it not fly at Farnborough or Fairford - even with a company crew in one of the company jets? Trouble at t'mill lad, I suspect?
I do think the tax-payer deserves a full and open review on this £3Bn+ fiasco to find out just who was at fault for wasting so much money - even if it costs £0.5M to complete, we must ensure that it never happens again (at least for a very long time).
You also need to ask the question why the 1st and only MRA4 aircraft was delivered in March 2010 and we still weren't flying it in October 2010? Why did it not fly at Farnborough or Fairford - even with a company crew in one of the company jets? Trouble at t'mill lad, I suspect?
I do think the tax-payer deserves a full and open review on this £3Bn+ fiasco to find out just who was at fault for wasting so much money - even if it costs £0.5M to complete, we must ensure that it never happens again (at least for a very long time).
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End of Several Eras
Having had, what is now clearly, the last experience of flying MRA4 as a current RAF pilot, I can only say that I am completely and utterly dumbfounded at today's decision. Not only is it contrary to all of the apparent criteria required to be met in terms of cost benefit/capability/roles/future expansion, it appears that the single main issue is it was called Nimrod. Having spent the last 10 years (nearly half of my so called RAF career) on this project, I still cannot understand the logic. There is no credible military argument for this decision (but apparently there is for the E3!) and I am still struggling to understand the so called financial benefits (we've already paid for it, so what are we saving?).
But all of that is bye the bye. What nation, with any maritime aspirations, needs a platform with 15 hours un-refuelled flight duration, 2100 mile radius of action, an F18E derived 1760 Mil Std weapons databus with 13 weapons hardpoints (9 bomb bay and 4 wing), a radar with a 250 mile range, SAR and ISAR modes, Link 11 and Link 16, SHF Satcom, HFx2, V/UHF x 5 and fitted for but not with UHF Satcom, capable of operating from 36000ft to 200ft. All integrated, working and demonstrated for the last 10 months.
Certainly not a nation that intends to keep a submarine based nuclear deterent and surely not a nation that intends to launch 2 new carriers in the next 10 years (with a much reduced surface fleet screen capabilty).
Anyway, all of this is irrelevant. The decisions are irreversible apparently.
Thank you to all who have supported the MRA4/ maritime aviation over the years.
Please, do not ask the Defence Secretary, Prime Minister and anyone else who cares to listen, why there are currently several foreign MPA deployed to RAF Kinloss.
SFO
But all of that is bye the bye. What nation, with any maritime aspirations, needs a platform with 15 hours un-refuelled flight duration, 2100 mile radius of action, an F18E derived 1760 Mil Std weapons databus with 13 weapons hardpoints (9 bomb bay and 4 wing), a radar with a 250 mile range, SAR and ISAR modes, Link 11 and Link 16, SHF Satcom, HFx2, V/UHF x 5 and fitted for but not with UHF Satcom, capable of operating from 36000ft to 200ft. All integrated, working and demonstrated for the last 10 months.
Certainly not a nation that intends to keep a submarine based nuclear deterent and surely not a nation that intends to launch 2 new carriers in the next 10 years (with a much reduced surface fleet screen capabilty).
Anyway, all of this is irrelevant. The decisions are irreversible apparently.
Thank you to all who have supported the MRA4/ maritime aviation over the years.
Please, do not ask the Defence Secretary, Prime Minister and anyone else who cares to listen, why there are currently several foreign MPA deployed to RAF Kinloss.
SFO
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I'm sorry Short Fat One, but I need clarification - are you suggesting perhaps that there is a need for LRMPA and that foreign aircraft are fulfilling that role from ISK on the actual day we cancel our own MPA type?
That cannot be the case, quite obviously, as no government in it's right mind would delete an entire capability to perform said role in these circumstances.
Shurely shome mishtake.
That cannot be the case, quite obviously, as no government in it's right mind would delete an entire capability to perform said role in these circumstances.
Shurely shome mishtake.
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Short fat one
I sympathise with you, the MRA 4 could have been the best thing since sliced bread but SDR was about cost savings not about ability or need and any minister that says otherwise is a L***.
The E-3D is not an MPA aircraft but its paid for and can provide more than just early warning, the MRA 4 was a 3.4 billion cost saving to the bean counters nothing more.
I have had the good fortune to fly the earlier incarnations of the Nimrod and the E-3D. Yes, the E-3D can provide a good surface plot and provide an ESM input. No, it can't handle the business end of MPA i.e down in the weeds, but if you put a low cost platform out there you can handle visual ident's or with a more capable (attack) aircraft, a surface engagement. Its not perfect but its cheap and it works.
The sub surface element is a whole different ball game.
Have you looked over at Davis Montham lately? a bucketful of cheap and cheerful S-3B's are just sitting there looking for an owner. There not an MRA 4 but are fully capable MPA aircraft that would fill the gap left by the MR 2. Most of the aircraft have at least 20 years of fatigue life left on them ( if managed properly), better than a dash 8 or a caravan hunting down a warship. They possess over land targeting capability (SLAM ER equipped) as well as(on request) the full sub surface package (taken out by the US Navy)
They could be picked up for a song and provide at least a reasonable LRMPA presence for the UK.
I don't agree with the decision to cancel the MRA 4 and I certainly understand your frustration at this stupid decision however,we cannot change the minds of those that do not understand the need for such a platform.
IMHO we are moving towards long range MPA handled by UAV (as a cost saving measure) rather than manned platforms, I would not be surprised if a BAE 'idea' springs up in the very near future offering that 'one time good deal'.
Just my 2 cents worth.
I sympathise with you, the MRA 4 could have been the best thing since sliced bread but SDR was about cost savings not about ability or need and any minister that says otherwise is a L***.
The E-3D is not an MPA aircraft but its paid for and can provide more than just early warning, the MRA 4 was a 3.4 billion cost saving to the bean counters nothing more.
I have had the good fortune to fly the earlier incarnations of the Nimrod and the E-3D. Yes, the E-3D can provide a good surface plot and provide an ESM input. No, it can't handle the business end of MPA i.e down in the weeds, but if you put a low cost platform out there you can handle visual ident's or with a more capable (attack) aircraft, a surface engagement. Its not perfect but its cheap and it works.
The sub surface element is a whole different ball game.
Have you looked over at Davis Montham lately? a bucketful of cheap and cheerful S-3B's are just sitting there looking for an owner. There not an MRA 4 but are fully capable MPA aircraft that would fill the gap left by the MR 2. Most of the aircraft have at least 20 years of fatigue life left on them ( if managed properly), better than a dash 8 or a caravan hunting down a warship. They possess over land targeting capability (SLAM ER equipped) as well as(on request) the full sub surface package (taken out by the US Navy)
They could be picked up for a song and provide at least a reasonable LRMPA presence for the UK.
I don't agree with the decision to cancel the MRA 4 and I certainly understand your frustration at this stupid decision however,we cannot change the minds of those that do not understand the need for such a platform.
IMHO we are moving towards long range MPA handled by UAV (as a cost saving measure) rather than manned platforms, I would not be surprised if a BAE 'idea' springs up in the very near future offering that 'one time good deal'.
Just my 2 cents worth.
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My sincerest sympathies to everyone at ISK. This news must be devastating for everyone irrespective of rank, trade or branch. Whilst I am not comp-letely surprised, I am, still very saddened at the news.
Whilst I understand that their airships (apparantly) were fighting to keep MRA4 right up until the last minute, the fact remains that they failed to convince the government! And frankly, that is a serious failure on their part.
If they, as military top military men were unable to convince a bunch of non-military people that an MPA is essential to an island nation, then one has to question the ability of them. How would they convince the ploticians in a time of war? (or maybe they don't anymore? Hence why we have had idiots like Bumbling Bob Ainsworth running things)
If I were CAS, ACAS, AOC or whoever, then I would stand up publicly and declare that this one decision alone was a grave mistake and I would publicly resign. That will show the public, the boys and girls left in the RAF and more importantly the British public, that this decision was wholly wrong and needs reversing.
So, over to you CAS. What are you going to do about it? Are you going to make a name for yourself within the RAF and Britain? Or are you going to wait until you have retired, got your position on the board of BWOS secured and then spout off in a few years time about how you didn't agree with the cuts? Whats it to be Sir?
The Winco
Whilst I understand that their airships (apparantly) were fighting to keep MRA4 right up until the last minute, the fact remains that they failed to convince the government! And frankly, that is a serious failure on their part.
If they, as military top military men were unable to convince a bunch of non-military people that an MPA is essential to an island nation, then one has to question the ability of them. How would they convince the ploticians in a time of war? (or maybe they don't anymore? Hence why we have had idiots like Bumbling Bob Ainsworth running things)
If I were CAS, ACAS, AOC or whoever, then I would stand up publicly and declare that this one decision alone was a grave mistake and I would publicly resign. That will show the public, the boys and girls left in the RAF and more importantly the British public, that this decision was wholly wrong and needs reversing.
So, over to you CAS. What are you going to do about it? Are you going to make a name for yourself within the RAF and Britain? Or are you going to wait until you have retired, got your position on the board of BWOS secured and then spout off in a few years time about how you didn't agree with the cuts? Whats it to be Sir?
The Winco
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SFO,
surely you can see that it was a no brainer to ditch the MR4A??
How else could they have made the savings to keep the combat proven, capable, cost effective Typhoon. Particularly considering it's Air/Ground performance.
What island in the 21st century next to some of the busiest shipping lanes in the world, reliant on 85%+ of it's trade by sea, needs a capable MPA anymore?
surely you can see that it was a no brainer to ditch the MR4A??
How else could they have made the savings to keep the combat proven, capable, cost effective Typhoon. Particularly considering it's Air/Ground performance.
What island in the 21st century next to some of the busiest shipping lanes in the world, reliant on 85%+ of it's trade by sea, needs a capable MPA anymore?
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Headache
Snoopy
It is that dawning realization that for many years we have been banging our head against a brick wall without anyone in the wider audience, either noticing or caring.
It is time to head into ISK with snow on the ground - dark clouds last night and a real chill in the air this morning. I see no silver lining at present.
It is that dawning realization that for many years we have been banging our head against a brick wall without anyone in the wider audience, either noticing or caring.
It is time to head into ISK with snow on the ground - dark clouds last night and a real chill in the air this morning. I see no silver lining at present.
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The E-3D is not an MPA aircraft but its paid for and can provide more than just early warning, the MRA 4 was a 3.4 billion cost saving to the bean counters nothing more.
And just to highlight this again, as I'd be hugely ietersted in seeing it answered should anyone reading these boards be in a position to ask it publicly.
Please, do not ask the Defence Secretary, Prime Minister and anyone else who cares to listen, why there are currently several foreign MPA deployed to RAF Kinloss.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
The E-3ds represent the UK contribution to the NAEW force, we provide our jets instead of contributing to the funding for the joint wing. If we retired one, we'd have to pay for the other.
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Originally Posted by servodyne
Have you looked over at Davis Montham lately? a bucketful of cheap and cheerful S-3B's are just sitting there looking for an owner. There not an MRA 4 but are fully capable MPA aircraft that would fill the gap left by the MR 2.
Regarding the lack of lobbying by BASE or whatever this years name is, the answer is probably that it wasn't built at Warton. It would also upset their accountants if anything remotely risked the profitability of a substancial land sale (eg, late closure and clearance of Woodford).
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From Hansard.
Prime Minister; that does not, in my opinion, answer Mr Ainsworth's last question in the slightest.
Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab): Is not the Prime Minister doing precisely what he criticises with regard to Trident? He is putting off the decision and delaying the expenditure, thereby increasing it. He has also cancelled the Nimrod aircraft, rendering our nuclear deterrent less than invulnerable. How is that sensible, never mind strategic?
The Prime Minister: Let me first answer the right hon. Gentleman's last question. What we are proposing would mean no reduction in continuous at-sea deterrence, which is vital. We set out that we were committed to Trident's replacement but wanted a value-for-money review, and we asked the Ministry of Defence to go through all the possibilities and look to see how we could extend the life of the existing submarines, work on Trident's replacement and ensure that we had continuous at-sea deterrence all the way through. Those are the sorts of questions, frankly, that the last Government should have asked. It would be irresponsible not to do so if we want to have a full-service nuclear deterrent but want value for money. That is the sort of thing that the last Government should have been asking about.
The Prime Minister: Let me first answer the right hon. Gentleman's last question. What we are proposing would mean no reduction in continuous at-sea deterrence, which is vital. We set out that we were committed to Trident's replacement but wanted a value-for-money review, and we asked the Ministry of Defence to go through all the possibilities and look to see how we could extend the life of the existing submarines, work on Trident's replacement and ensure that we had continuous at-sea deterrence all the way through. Those are the sorts of questions, frankly, that the last Government should have asked. It would be irresponsible not to do so if we want to have a full-service nuclear deterrent but want value for money. That is the sort of thing that the last Government should have been asking about.
Last edited by My T Hunter; 20th Oct 2010 at 07:57.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The loss to the RAF is bad and many will lose their jobs but not all of those at Kinloss. Many will be absorbed elsewhere and there will be a gradual reduction over may be 12 months or more.
In industry it will be much more sudden. Yesterday, work, today clearing out, tomorrow nothing.
In industry it will be much more sudden. Yesterday, work, today clearing out, tomorrow nothing.