Nimrod MRA.4
I wonder if it would have been scrapped if it had been delivered on time and on budget? How many of the powers that be thought that late (really late) and expensive = no good and therefore an easy choice when they had to make significant savings?
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Can anything be salvaged. So many questions.
As taxpayers what have we got for our Nimrod MRA4 money? Can anything be salvaged? What percentage completion is applicable to the 9 airframes under construction? What exactly is the current problem on the flight test aircraft that prevented its safe handover to the RAF. was it fixable in a short timescale? Are the whole fleet going to be broken up in a similar way to Nimrod Mk3,TSR2, Valiant B2. An enquiry should be set up to determine where it all went wrong and procedures put in place to ensure that future procurement procedures are tightened drastically to ensure that this waste of public money is not repeated. The saddest waste of all is the detrimental effect that this will have on so many talented people who have given so much of their lives to this project.
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Just attended a talk with CAS at 201.
Nice bollocking issued to him from MR B MBE, followed by a huge round of applause from all in attendance. JJ looked like a proud father.
Thanks to Mr B and especially to JJ who just managed to get through yesterdays speach.
Much respect is due for our ex station commander,its a pity more senior officers are not prepared to stand by there principles and tell the powers to be to shove it. I wish you well in Civvy street.
Regards
ASWeaty sock
Nice bollocking issued to him from MR B MBE, followed by a huge round of applause from all in attendance. JJ looked like a proud father.
Thanks to Mr B and especially to JJ who just managed to get through yesterdays speach.
Much respect is due for our ex station commander,its a pity more senior officers are not prepared to stand by there principles and tell the powers to be to shove it. I wish you well in Civvy street.
Regards
ASWeaty sock
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Depends on who owned the lollipop. The Nimrod 2000 was probably bought on the premise that it was similar to the Mk 1 - Mk 2 conversion and therefore cheaper by far than buying a P£x or whatever. In otherwords it was political from day 1.
We just had a brief from a member of the RAF board and he said they put forward a very strong caser to keep the MR4A but it was the PM who dismissed the advise and chopped the fleet. I believe the RAF fought very hard to retain the strategic capability but the PM had a number of options presented to him and chose the Nimrod. As has been said previously, strategic folly for an Island nation. We should have ditched entire Helo fleets (Puma, Merlin) and maybe E3D over the ASW capability.
I can only imagine the Navy must be equally appalled as they now have only limited short range ASW capability to protect the bombers and their precious new carriers. This decision, IMHO, will come back to haunt us.
I can only imagine the Navy must be equally appalled as they now have only limited short range ASW capability to protect the bombers and their precious new carriers. This decision, IMHO, will come back to haunt us.
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Grimweasel
If what you say is correct (and I do not doubt it for a single minute) then CAS and ACAS would do themselves a whole power of good to go public with their beliefs and resign in unison.
I have no time for Labour, but I am astonished that the senior arm of the RAF failed miserably to convince conservative politicians on this single matter. It's a disgrace and if either of them had any honour and loyalty to the RAF (aswell as a backbone between them) then they would quit!
They should hang their heads in shame. What a sad time for the RAF this is. I only hope that there is some kind of official investigation into the workings of BWOS and someone can explain to the British public why it is cheaper to scrap aircarft that are already built! and also this farce about it costing more NOT to build a ship than it does TO build a ship!! WTF is going on here???
The Winco
If what you say is correct (and I do not doubt it for a single minute) then CAS and ACAS would do themselves a whole power of good to go public with their beliefs and resign in unison.
I have no time for Labour, but I am astonished that the senior arm of the RAF failed miserably to convince conservative politicians on this single matter. It's a disgrace and if either of them had any honour and loyalty to the RAF (aswell as a backbone between them) then they would quit!
They should hang their heads in shame. What a sad time for the RAF this is. I only hope that there is some kind of official investigation into the workings of BWOS and someone can explain to the British public why it is cheaper to scrap aircarft that are already built! and also this farce about it costing more NOT to build a ship than it does TO build a ship!! WTF is going on here???
The Winco
As has been alluded to, I wonder if alternate advice to the PM was that MoD couldn't find anyone willing to sign the Release, in part because the aircraft remained tainted by the name "Nimrod".
Cancellation is a neat way of sweeping a lot of legacy issues under the carpet, especially if there is (a) no inqury into the general MRA4 acquisition fiasco and (b) no prosecution of BAeS, QQ or RAF officers. But it is a high risk strategy and I believe one should write to MPs to ask why this industrial scale waste has been allowed to pass without comment or censure. (In fact, the MoD(PE) 2 Star was be-gonged despite refusing to act when advised of both MRA4 programmatic problems and the systemic failings confirmed by H-C).
Cancellation is a neat way of sweeping a lot of legacy issues under the carpet, especially if there is (a) no inqury into the general MRA4 acquisition fiasco and (b) no prosecution of BAeS, QQ or RAF officers. But it is a high risk strategy and I believe one should write to MPs to ask why this industrial scale waste has been allowed to pass without comment or censure. (In fact, the MoD(PE) 2 Star was be-gonged despite refusing to act when advised of both MRA4 programmatic problems and the systemic failings confirmed by H-C).
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ShortFatOne,
You have put it beautifully. I agree 100% with your sentiments, and knocks on the head some of the pish on this thread, which I, for one am bored sick of and dumbfounded by the niaivety of some of the guff I've read in the last few months.
This decision is the poorest one I've ever been privy too, and I have a deep regret for casting my vote at the last election for this "government" that is childish in it's approach to Defence.
I've massively enjoyed working with you, and all my colleagues up north at Kinloss, and share the view of ALL at ISK, that this is utterly ridiculous. I too watch the foreign aircraft take off with disbelief....
You have put it beautifully. I agree 100% with your sentiments, and knocks on the head some of the pish on this thread, which I, for one am bored sick of and dumbfounded by the niaivety of some of the guff I've read in the last few months.
This decision is the poorest one I've ever been privy too, and I have a deep regret for casting my vote at the last election for this "government" that is childish in it's approach to Defence.
I've massively enjoyed working with you, and all my colleagues up north at Kinloss, and share the view of ALL at ISK, that this is utterly ridiculous. I too watch the foreign aircraft take off with disbelief....
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especially if there is...no prosecution of BAeS, QQ or RAF officers.
WTF?
I look forward to hearing the charges. Care to elaborate?
Actually - please don't. I'm too fed up to bite...
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The Irony of it all!
Thanks Betty; likewise, it has been an honour and a privelege working with yourself and everyone else at Kinloss over the years.
Finally got to see the apparent 'justification' for cancellation in the full SDSR report, which appears to be based solely on the premise that £2 Billion will be saved....over the next 10 years. Wow, what a massive and instant saving that is. Not sure it actually includes all the cancellation and disposal costs, can't see how it can, nobody has worked them out yet.
The irony? DCinC yesterday and CAS today both had to walk past foreign MPA on their way to explaining to us why we don't need one! You couldn't make it up.
Anyway, I am fairly certain that I will be taking the redundancy package (even if it's a McDonald's hat and bib), I no longer wish to be a part of this circus, it ain't funny any more.
RIP Coastal.
Finally got to see the apparent 'justification' for cancellation in the full SDSR report, which appears to be based solely on the premise that £2 Billion will be saved....over the next 10 years. Wow, what a massive and instant saving that is. Not sure it actually includes all the cancellation and disposal costs, can't see how it can, nobody has worked them out yet.
The irony? DCinC yesterday and CAS today both had to walk past foreign MPA on their way to explaining to us why we don't need one! You couldn't make it up.
Anyway, I am fairly certain that I will be taking the redundancy package (even if it's a McDonald's hat and bib), I no longer wish to be a part of this circus, it ain't funny any more.
RIP Coastal.
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SFO
I am assuming that this was pointed out to them, or were the recipients of the briefing(s) just too pi$$ed off to care?
The irony? DCinC yesterday and CAS today both had to walk past foreign MPA on their way to explaining to us why we don't need one! You couldn't make it up.
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RIP Coastal indeed!
Born in 1936, willingly gave 74 years of gallant service and sacrifice, only to be cruelly assassinated in 2010.
Just before WW II, no less than the First Lord of the Admiralty (A V Alexander) referred to Coastal as "The Cinderella Service," the name lived on.
Badly underfunded, housed in huts until the middle '80s (both Squadron accommodation and Messes) yet still we served with pride, professionalism and good cheer.
Who will now protect Albion's waters from intrusion, or scour the ocean for "those in peril on the sea?
Born in 1936, willingly gave 74 years of gallant service and sacrifice, only to be cruelly assassinated in 2010.
Just before WW II, no less than the First Lord of the Admiralty (A V Alexander) referred to Coastal as "The Cinderella Service," the name lived on.
Badly underfunded, housed in huts until the middle '80s (both Squadron accommodation and Messes) yet still we served with pride, professionalism and good cheer.
Who will now protect Albion's waters from intrusion, or scour the ocean for "those in peril on the sea?
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Jay
Negative. Understand that ACOS Man are rushing to put some briefs together but not expecting to hear anything for the next week or so. The various DINs are still the best source of what is likely to be offered, the timings are still tbd.
Gentlemen,
I have already put this on 2 SDSR related threads so far.....
The decision process is simple....
The medium level boys (Wg Cdr and Sqn Ldr) write/research lots of papers on options, e.g. not introducing MRA4, with cost and capability implications.
The big boys (3/4* and politicians) sit in a room and decide which options to impliment - BUT THEY DON'T TELL ANYONE DOWN THE CHAIN WHAT THOSE DECISIONS ARE, IN CASE IT LEAKS BEFORE THE MINISTER/PM GETS TO ANNOUNCE IT TO PARLIAMENT/THE MEDIA.
About 30 minutes before the briefing by the Minister/PM the players in the system (e.g. Stn Cdr ISK, RAF Manning) open their sealed envelopes and read the contents, before saying.."oh my god".
So all the people who sort out the detail, RAF Manning, 55 Sqn, Stn Cdrs, Sqn Cdrs have no time to do any prior preparation, and will spend the next 2 months playing catch up.....
Ask all the questions you want, just don't expect any solid answers for quite a while yet, they have not been worked out so far!!
This goes equally well for redundancy decisions regarding branches/trades/numbers required. There is no stitch up on redundancy terms, it depends on which pension scheme you are on AFPS 05 or 75 means you are on AFRS (RS = redundancy scheme) 06 or 10 respectively I believe. The details of these schemes are readily available on the Defence intranet, there is no conspiracy here in terms of money, you will be able to work out exactly what you are likely to get...
All of the above is my personal opinion, and I don't work in a Gp HQ or MOD!
I have already put this on 2 SDSR related threads so far.....
The decision process is simple....
The medium level boys (Wg Cdr and Sqn Ldr) write/research lots of papers on options, e.g. not introducing MRA4, with cost and capability implications.
The big boys (3/4* and politicians) sit in a room and decide which options to impliment - BUT THEY DON'T TELL ANYONE DOWN THE CHAIN WHAT THOSE DECISIONS ARE, IN CASE IT LEAKS BEFORE THE MINISTER/PM GETS TO ANNOUNCE IT TO PARLIAMENT/THE MEDIA.
About 30 minutes before the briefing by the Minister/PM the players in the system (e.g. Stn Cdr ISK, RAF Manning) open their sealed envelopes and read the contents, before saying.."oh my god".
So all the people who sort out the detail, RAF Manning, 55 Sqn, Stn Cdrs, Sqn Cdrs have no time to do any prior preparation, and will spend the next 2 months playing catch up.....
Ask all the questions you want, just don't expect any solid answers for quite a while yet, they have not been worked out so far!!
This goes equally well for redundancy decisions regarding branches/trades/numbers required. There is no stitch up on redundancy terms, it depends on which pension scheme you are on AFPS 05 or 75 means you are on AFRS (RS = redundancy scheme) 06 or 10 respectively I believe. The details of these schemes are readily available on the Defence intranet, there is no conspiracy here in terms of money, you will be able to work out exactly what you are likely to get...
All of the above is my personal opinion, and I don't work in a Gp HQ or MOD!
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Comet derivatives . . .
Not really had a lot of luck have they,
Original with square windows involved in very high profile crashes, then effectively pipped at the post by the 707 while they were sorting that out.
Nimrod MR 1 & 2 - not too bad but were severely tested on Ops, being at max ZFW very quickly.
Nimrod AEW - oops, didn't work.
Nimrod 2000 oh err, Nimrod MR4 - isn't that overbudget and still yet another compromise with this particular airframe?
I'm sad to see any capability being lost, but that particular aircraft always seemed a bit iffy to me. Yet another example of a political shuttle-cock.
Sorry for those who've put their all into the project though.
Original with square windows involved in very high profile crashes, then effectively pipped at the post by the 707 while they were sorting that out.
Nimrod MR 1 & 2 - not too bad but were severely tested on Ops, being at max ZFW very quickly.
Nimrod AEW - oops, didn't work.
Nimrod 2000 oh err, Nimrod MR4 - isn't that overbudget and still yet another compromise with this particular airframe?
I'm sad to see any capability being lost, but that particular aircraft always seemed a bit iffy to me. Yet another example of a political shuttle-cock.
Sorry for those who've put their all into the project though.