Nimrod MRA.4
SGC wrote
It has been discussed on PPRuNe in the past.
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...placement.html
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...-aircraft.html
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...-aircraft.html
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...1-upgrade.html
The Mighty Hunter still lives on in the R1! Hopefully it will be around for a little while longer? Some images from today at RAF Waddington.
DSC_0026-NIMROD-R1-XW664-RA by llihmot, on Flickr
DSC_0016-NIMROD-R1-XW664-RA by llihmot, on Flickr
TJ
Is there absolutely no chance that MRA4's couldn't be reconfigured as a SIGINT platform so negating the requirement to buy old Boeings for Rivet Joint?
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...placement.html
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...-aircraft.html
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...-aircraft.html
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...1-upgrade.html
The Mighty Hunter still lives on in the R1! Hopefully it will be around for a little while longer? Some images from today at RAF Waddington.
DSC_0026-NIMROD-R1-XW664-RA by llihmot, on Flickr
DSC_0016-NIMROD-R1-XW664-RA by llihmot, on Flickr
TJ
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
replies on another forum about the MR4a :
We are not the worlds policemen,
we do not project influence.
We are also not here to save every Russian trawlerman in the Atlantic or polar regions.
Do the rest of the world pay us for such services, or have the ability to reciprocate in the middle of the indian ocean?
We are not the worlds policemen,
we do not project influence.
We are also not here to save every Russian trawlerman in the Atlantic or polar regions.
Do the rest of the world pay us for such services, or have the ability to reciprocate in the middle of the indian ocean?
Project influence? We will if we get the CVS.
Saving Rusian trawlermen (actually it was usually Polish) will still fall to Britannia should we have a war canoe nearby. The difference is the Nimrod could have found the trawler first.
No the World does not pay us to drug hunt in the Caribbean (nice job if you get it) or pirate hunt in the Indian Ocean (also quite nice).
The get real applies to UK plc.
The Nimrod OTOH would have gone a long way to protect the deterrent which is allegedly vital to UK plc.
Who should get real?
TEEEJ
Great pictures.
Those in denial look away now.
Reminds me of a meeting I convened on 30th May 1996 at which we (PE) notified DDSM11(RAF) - yet again - that his staffs were not implementing the airworthiness regs properly. Asked for an example, we cited Nimrod R1 as that, in part, was the subject of the meeting.
He replied there was no such thing in the RAF or MoD inventory. He was more concerned with the fact damned civvies (including two Nimrod R project managers) knew of its existence. Couldn’t care less about the airworthiness issue.
Great pictures.
Those in denial look away now.
Reminds me of a meeting I convened on 30th May 1996 at which we (PE) notified DDSM11(RAF) - yet again - that his staffs were not implementing the airworthiness regs properly. Asked for an example, we cited Nimrod R1 as that, in part, was the subject of the meeting.
He replied there was no such thing in the RAF or MoD inventory. He was more concerned with the fact damned civvies (including two Nimrod R project managers) knew of its existence. Couldn’t care less about the airworthiness issue.
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Tallsar..all I can say is Whoa there boy!
Those are not MY views. I have launched a robust defence of MR4a on another forum. The replies in my post are from those who show a complete ignorance of the importance of the aircraft and its systems.
To many members of the public it is a cold war white elephant, that blows up a lot. They see no need for it. That's why Dave and crew can get away with it.
Those are not MY views. I have launched a robust defence of MR4a on another forum. The replies in my post are from those who show a complete ignorance of the importance of the aircraft and its systems.
To many members of the public it is a cold war white elephant, that blows up a lot. They see no need for it. That's why Dave and crew can get away with it.
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MLC -my apologies if I have misinterpreted your motivation...but the post suggested otherwise...perhaps I was having yet another "senior moment" or mislaid my "sensible" glasses...it seems to happen so often these days...
All the info on RIVET JOINT and the HELIX Program you need is here:
RAF Rivet Joint ? How Much? | Think Defence
If you can't be arsed to read it then I will spell out the headlines:
As the MRA4 programme progressed a replacement for the MR2 era R1 was being though about (via Project HELIX) and various suggestion surfaced including the RC-135 Rivet Joint, an upgrade of the existing aircraft, a version of the MRA4 or some other completely new aircraft.
RIVET JOINT selected.
R1 withdrawn in 2011 and UK RIVET JOINTs will deliver in 2014. To guard against skills fade the RAF crew will enter into a partnering agreement with the USAF.
Money wise, the post states "the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency published a notification of a possible sale to the UK of three RC135 RIVET JOINTs and associated support and logistics systems for up to $1.068 billion"
So 3 aircraft will cost us approx £690M (assuming $1.55 to £1) - I agree with the author of the article "In all fairness it is not a bad deal, the alternative in these budget constrained times is nothing".
I do disagree with the author on RIVET JOINTs capability vs Nimrod R1 - having received a service from both in the past it was hard to tell the difference (apart from the Texan drawl!).
Thank God we're not giving t'bunglin baron waste-o-space a shed load of cash for Nimrod R5 to deliver probably in 2025 (if we're lucky)!
LJ
RAF Rivet Joint ? How Much? | Think Defence
If you can't be arsed to read it then I will spell out the headlines:
As the MRA4 programme progressed a replacement for the MR2 era R1 was being though about (via Project HELIX) and various suggestion surfaced including the RC-135 Rivet Joint, an upgrade of the existing aircraft, a version of the MRA4 or some other completely new aircraft.
RIVET JOINT selected.
R1 withdrawn in 2011 and UK RIVET JOINTs will deliver in 2014. To guard against skills fade the RAF crew will enter into a partnering agreement with the USAF.
Money wise, the post states "the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency published a notification of a possible sale to the UK of three RC135 RIVET JOINTs and associated support and logistics systems for up to $1.068 billion"
So 3 aircraft will cost us approx £690M (assuming $1.55 to £1) - I agree with the author of the article "In all fairness it is not a bad deal, the alternative in these budget constrained times is nothing".
I do disagree with the author on RIVET JOINTs capability vs Nimrod R1 - having received a service from both in the past it was hard to tell the difference (apart from the Texan drawl!).
Thank God we're not giving t'bunglin baron waste-o-space a shed load of cash for Nimrod R5 to deliver probably in 2025 (if we're lucky)!
LJ
The RJ and R1 are indeed very similar capabilities (with a different crew compliment), apart from Boeing have done a better job of refurbing and re-engining a 1970s aircraft than a certain company in the North West.
Loads of good information on wiki:
Boeing RC-135 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
iRaven
Loads of good information on wiki:
Boeing RC-135 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
iRaven
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My tuppence
So if the UK suspended Foreign Aid payments for 1 year, canned Scampton dart team and cut the faggots in the Central Band. What capabilities could be retained if needed?
The Mariner or other variants of the same beast can do what they do well, they do not do LRMPA/MRCA duties because they are not. Even in the flavoursome arena of ISTAR both platforms have strengths and weaknesses. This is from my operational experience, not read in an armchair/blog/or from a fat bloke down the pub. No number of excel sheets, simulations or company sales pitches can change the laws of physics
.
I have spent most of life protecting the right of people to have free speech, but some on here are wearing thin, if they were indigenous Americans their name would be Big Chief Talking Bolloxs
My thoughts, compassion and thanks go to my mates and colleagues at ISK keep safe. To rest of you who never knew what they did on your behalf, they deserve your respect and thanks.
Good luck in your future endeavours.
Charlie sends
P.s If anyone has a problem with what I have said, bring it as I am right in the mood for feckwits
The Mariner or other variants of the same beast can do what they do well, they do not do LRMPA/MRCA duties because they are not. Even in the flavoursome arena of ISTAR both platforms have strengths and weaknesses. This is from my operational experience, not read in an armchair/blog/or from a fat bloke down the pub. No number of excel sheets, simulations or company sales pitches can change the laws of physics
.I have spent most of life protecting the right of people to have free speech, but some on here are wearing thin, if they were indigenous Americans their name would be Big Chief Talking Bolloxs
My thoughts, compassion and thanks go to my mates and colleagues at ISK keep safe. To rest of you who never knew what they did on your behalf, they deserve your respect and thanks.
Good luck in your future endeavours.
Charlie sends
P.s If anyone has a problem with what I have said, bring it as I am right in the mood for feckwits
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Charlie L
Foreign Aid I would agree with, and even the Central band, but closing Scampton and canning the Reds - you should know better. It is a fact that the UK as a whole 'make' more out of the Red Arrows that they cost. It is probably the only part of the RAF that actually 'makes money' in any form for the country, so I can't agree with you there my friend.
As for the rest of your comments, Yes, 100% behind you.
Apart from the obvioous heartache and anger this has caused, I cannot help but think that the airships have failed miserably (yet again) to get the point over to the government on this matter. There has clearly been a big Bun-Fight going on between the RN and ourselves, and at the end of the day, we lost frankly. Who is to blame? IMHO the blame lies on the shoulders of CAS, ACAS, AOC and the rest of the VSO's within the RAF.
You and I both know that what matters most to CAS and his bunch of spineless followers, is having enough of the very fast, very noisey and very pointy things to go whizzing around in (with the odd 'Wirley thing' available in case it all goes wrong and they need a lift home!) It is a fact that the RAF is run by fighter pilots for fighter pilots. But in todays modern Wars, they are simply not needed. What good will/is Typhoon be in Afghanistan? Lets face it, they are only at MPA because the F3's (another BWOS lash up) were sha$$ed beyond belief.
The real workhorses of the RAF, the truckie fleet, the SH fleet and of course the maritime fleet are very much the unsung heroes, and as such continually suck hind tit to most other things. Which is why I still feel that someone at KSS needs to put together a strong factual dosier on what Nimrod has, does and would continue to do and achieve. List individual incidents:
Fasnet race, Air India Jumbo, Piper A, counless fishing boat SAROPS. List the expertise levels in ASW, ASUW, the current ops blah that are the envy of the world.
It is clear that the airships are going to sit on their fat ar$es and do nothing, therefore it is up to the boys and girls at the coalface to get out there and spread the word. And the word is that this country is a lot less safer on all fronts without the capability of Nimrod.
Since flying long haul in civvie street (some very long haul!) it has always given me a nice warm feeling when I am coming back towards UK airspace to have been within 'reaching distance' of our UK SAR assets (which are the best in the world btw) To know that if we ever had a major incident, there would be a Nimrod there available and ready to help out. We now have to get a lot closer before we get that same warm feeling today.
CAS, ACAS, AOC, ALL RAF VSO's -
Your lack of public condemnation at the cuts to the RAF but in particular the loss of Nimrod and the Maritime fleet as a whole, has shown you all in a light that I never ever believed I would witness. Your spineless and gutless lack of comment displays a lack of honour and respect to the very service you command. You should hang your heads in shame because yoou are (IMHO of course!) an utter disgrace to this country.
Winco
Foreign Aid I would agree with, and even the Central band, but closing Scampton and canning the Reds - you should know better. It is a fact that the UK as a whole 'make' more out of the Red Arrows that they cost. It is probably the only part of the RAF that actually 'makes money' in any form for the country, so I can't agree with you there my friend.
As for the rest of your comments, Yes, 100% behind you.
Apart from the obvioous heartache and anger this has caused, I cannot help but think that the airships have failed miserably (yet again) to get the point over to the government on this matter. There has clearly been a big Bun-Fight going on between the RN and ourselves, and at the end of the day, we lost frankly. Who is to blame? IMHO the blame lies on the shoulders of CAS, ACAS, AOC and the rest of the VSO's within the RAF.
You and I both know that what matters most to CAS and his bunch of spineless followers, is having enough of the very fast, very noisey and very pointy things to go whizzing around in (with the odd 'Wirley thing' available in case it all goes wrong and they need a lift home!) It is a fact that the RAF is run by fighter pilots for fighter pilots. But in todays modern Wars, they are simply not needed. What good will/is Typhoon be in Afghanistan? Lets face it, they are only at MPA because the F3's (another BWOS lash up) were sha$$ed beyond belief.
The real workhorses of the RAF, the truckie fleet, the SH fleet and of course the maritime fleet are very much the unsung heroes, and as such continually suck hind tit to most other things. Which is why I still feel that someone at KSS needs to put together a strong factual dosier on what Nimrod has, does and would continue to do and achieve. List individual incidents:
Fasnet race, Air India Jumbo, Piper A, counless fishing boat SAROPS. List the expertise levels in ASW, ASUW, the current ops blah that are the envy of the world.
It is clear that the airships are going to sit on their fat ar$es and do nothing, therefore it is up to the boys and girls at the coalface to get out there and spread the word. And the word is that this country is a lot less safer on all fronts without the capability of Nimrod.
Since flying long haul in civvie street (some very long haul!) it has always given me a nice warm feeling when I am coming back towards UK airspace to have been within 'reaching distance' of our UK SAR assets (which are the best in the world btw) To know that if we ever had a major incident, there would be a Nimrod there available and ready to help out. We now have to get a lot closer before we get that same warm feeling today.
CAS, ACAS, AOC, ALL RAF VSO's -
Your lack of public condemnation at the cuts to the RAF but in particular the loss of Nimrod and the Maritime fleet as a whole, has shown you all in a light that I never ever believed I would witness. Your spineless and gutless lack of comment displays a lack of honour and respect to the very service you command. You should hang your heads in shame because yoou are (IMHO of course!) an utter disgrace to this country.
Winco
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Hear, hear Winco!
I have been reliably informed by someone present at the brief that CAS gave at Kinloss on Wednesday that he stated that he had defended the MRA4 to the end! He said that he had fought the case with the NSC and asked if they were prepared to take the the risk that would arise if Nimrod was cancelled on their own backs, and they said yes. He also stated that he was face-to-face with the PM as late as Saturday morning, 3 days before SDSR was announced, fighting the case for MRA4.
Now, if I have had the brief reported to me correctly, which I have no doubt I have (I trust the integrity of the person that told me more than that of VSO's and politicians) and if CAS was telling the truth ( ) the he really should come out publicly and clearly state that he believes this decision to be wrong. If he has any bollocks and truly did fight the case for MRA4 to the end then he should stand up and let the public know where he stands and that as the CAS he fought to keep this very important capability and that he was overruled by the penny-pinching politicians!!
COME ON CAS - Don't wait until you are retired to speak up, if what you told those at Kinloss was true then have the bollocks to go public now!!
MadMark!!!
I have been reliably informed by someone present at the brief that CAS gave at Kinloss on Wednesday that he stated that he had defended the MRA4 to the end! He said that he had fought the case with the NSC and asked if they were prepared to take the the risk that would arise if Nimrod was cancelled on their own backs, and they said yes. He also stated that he was face-to-face with the PM as late as Saturday morning, 3 days before SDSR was announced, fighting the case for MRA4.
Now, if I have had the brief reported to me correctly, which I have no doubt I have (I trust the integrity of the person that told me more than that of VSO's and politicians) and if CAS was telling the truth (
) the he really should come out publicly and clearly state that he believes this decision to be wrong. If he has any bollocks and truly did fight the case for MRA4 to the end then he should stand up and let the public know where he stands and that as the CAS he fought to keep this very important capability and that he was overruled by the penny-pinching politicians!!COME ON CAS - Don't wait until you are retired to speak up, if what you told those at Kinloss was true then have the bollocks to go public now!!
MadMark!!!
I can't agree with the constant drone of "the sky will fall in if we don't have Nimrod"; quite frankly it won't.
The loss of MRA4 started with the ill-conceived idea of refurbing a 1st generation large jet aircraft and not realising what was involved. Secondly, at the turn of the millenium, when the knives were out to reduce the numbers the half-witted idea of putting an MX15 on it was devised for the overland role (fully supported by an ex kipper man who was now CinC - nepotism in the same way as you are all accusing the FJ 3 & 4 stars). The amount of money we spent putting the Nimrod over Iraq and Afg, we could have procured about half a dozen Predator sqns (and prevented a tragic accident).
If we hadn't selected the MRA4 and if we hadn't invented a job for an MPA that it wasn't designed for then I suspect we would still have a MPA capability right now.
And finally, I'm pretty sure that most airline pilots don't give it a second thought that there is no LRSAR cover in the UK, so stop getting all mawkish and move on.
iRaven
The loss of MRA4 started with the ill-conceived idea of refurbing a 1st generation large jet aircraft and not realising what was involved. Secondly, at the turn of the millenium, when the knives were out to reduce the numbers the half-witted idea of putting an MX15 on it was devised for the overland role (fully supported by an ex kipper man who was now CinC - nepotism in the same way as you are all accusing the FJ 3 & 4 stars). The amount of money we spent putting the Nimrod over Iraq and Afg, we could have procured about half a dozen Predator sqns (and prevented a tragic accident).
If we hadn't selected the MRA4 and if we hadn't invented a job for an MPA that it wasn't designed for then I suspect we would still have a MPA capability right now.
And finally, I'm pretty sure that most airline pilots don't give it a second thought that there is no LRSAR cover in the UK, so stop getting all mawkish and move on.
iRaven
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IRaven. Don't be niaive. That's not what's being said here. If you have nothing positive to add to the debate, I suggest you don't post. Please have a look at this...
Russian nuclear submarine plays cat and mouse off British coast | The Sun |News
Russian nuclear submarine plays cat and mouse off British coast | The Sun |News
iRaven,
I am sorry but it is not about AFG. Your comments about using Reaper are not valid and fail to acknowledge the broad range of tasks that MRA4 would have been able to conduct. I for one, am concerned about its loss where other less capable or versatile platforms have been retained.
I am sorry but it is not about AFG. Your comments about using Reaper are not valid and fail to acknowledge the broad range of tasks that MRA4 would have been able to conduct. I for one, am concerned about its loss where other less capable or versatile platforms have been retained.
More bang for your buck
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Since they are going into storage, presumably in an airworthy state, they could therefore be brought into service later on.
So could this just be a sneaky way of closing Kinloss, then a year down the line issue a statement that threat situation has changed and we now need them and base them somewhere like Waddington?
So could this just be a sneaky way of closing Kinloss, then a year down the line issue a statement that threat situation has changed and we now need them and base them somewhere like Waddington?