Nimrod MRA.4
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As an ex Nimrod-driver, and having had some role in the MRA4 project, my thoughts are firmly with those at Kinloss and Warton. Please let's not forget that many folks at technical level on the JTT at Warton, both BAES and RAF, have put their working lives into this project for 15 years. They've tried to work through the politics to engineer the best possible ac with what they were given. This must as bitter a blow to them as it certainly is to those at KSS.
I'm also minded that the 70th anniversary of another great WW2 battle will be upon us soon; the Battle of the Atlantic. Here may end decades of world-leading maritime patrol expertise in the Royal Air Force, but certainly not the memories.
I'm also minded that the 70th anniversary of another great WW2 battle will be upon us soon; the Battle of the Atlantic. Here may end decades of world-leading maritime patrol expertise in the Royal Air Force, but certainly not the memories.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
IMHO Maritime always sucked the hind tit, certainly as far it is was perceived up the tree.
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Could be the last?
If you think back to 1997, Lockheed proposed a new P3 variant and those who experienced the C130J knows that even Lockheed can get it wrong sometimes. Loral proposed a P3B variant, from the desert - mind you just like Rivet Joint. And Dassault the Atlantique 3. Of those the MRA4 and and Lockheed were the closest. The MRA4 was late but it did work, rough round the edges but the potential was enormous. Its failure was in part due to BAES considering the MOD to be a cash cow and as much money extracted as possible regardless.
MOD policy is for all support beyond 1st line, sorry, forward, to be with industry and they then baulk at the cost. That is where the failure lies. Industry's view is 'where will they go they must accept', well BAES, your greed has caused the country to lose a much needed capability, and no more income from the project.
If you think back to 1997, Lockheed proposed a new P3 variant and those who experienced the C130J knows that even Lockheed can get it wrong sometimes. Loral proposed a P3B variant, from the desert - mind you just like Rivet Joint. And Dassault the Atlantique 3. Of those the MRA4 and and Lockheed were the closest. The MRA4 was late but it did work, rough round the edges but the potential was enormous. Its failure was in part due to BAES considering the MOD to be a cash cow and as much money extracted as possible regardless.
MOD policy is for all support beyond 1st line, sorry, forward, to be with industry and they then baulk at the cost. That is where the failure lies. Industry's view is 'where will they go they must accept', well BAES, your greed has caused the country to lose a much needed capability, and no more income from the project.
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And non-ISK sites
Don't forget the "the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground" who are equally gutted
After 28 years working Nimrod MR2 and lately MRA4 all as a civilian - I suspect I'm now out of a job
Where is the sick as a pig icon?
After 28 years working Nimrod MR2 and lately MRA4 all as a civilian - I suspect I'm now out of a job
Where is the sick as a pig icon?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Doptrack, indeed the blow to the guys at Kinloss is severe, postings, redundancies, relocations from Scotland, many of whom are Scots, but for civilians the chop will be near instantaneous.
Only clearing desks, workshops and hangars remains while redundnacy notice is served. Very Sad.
Only clearing desks, workshops and hangars remains while redundnacy notice is served. Very Sad.
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MRA4 Cost Per Unit
With a fixed price contract (3.6Bn), and a constantly reducing number of ac as each defence minister settles in...the cost per unit was always going to rise. 21 down to 9 its not rocket science that they will be really prohibitively expensive eventually. Now that there will be no MRA4. How does 3.6Bn already spent on no ac look better value for money than 21, 18, 12, 0r even 9 
???
And the core capability is just as essential now as in 1990.....never mind the MRCA element of Combat ISTAR spin off and the SAR piece. Never mind UAVs and airships will be able to fill the gap.........
???And the core capability is just as essential now as in 1990.....never mind the MRCA element of Combat ISTAR spin off and the SAR piece. Never mind UAVs and airships will be able to fill the gap.........
"sucking the hind tit".....
....Pontius my old, I do remember using that very phrase to Willy Rotten when he came to KSS a long time ago to tell us how wonderful the F3 was and of course the far-in-the-distance Eurofighter. I asked what the relevance of those beasts were to the average siggy in the crew room.
"What do you mean 'sucking the hind tit'?"
When I explained, and used, en passant,phrase "FJ mafia" he stood up and said to the boss "I don't wish to prolong this discussion" and left.
A long time later I was detailed to give a Nimrod capability brief to a visiting and new-ish AVM. At the end, as we covered all the stuff mentioned above ASW, ASuW, MCT,anti drugs. electro-optics,SAR etc he turned to his bag carrier and asked in astonished tones "Why didn't I KNOW any of this stuff???"
On this occasion I almost bit through my tongue and switched the projector off. Another FJ puke.
The Ancient Mariner
"What do you mean 'sucking the hind tit'?"
When I explained, and used, en passant,phrase "FJ mafia" he stood up and said to the boss "I don't wish to prolong this discussion" and left.
A long time later I was detailed to give a Nimrod capability brief to a visiting and new-ish AVM. At the end, as we covered all the stuff mentioned above ASW, ASuW, MCT,anti drugs. electro-optics,SAR etc he turned to his bag carrier and asked in astonished tones "Why didn't I KNOW any of this stuff???"
On this occasion I almost bit through my tongue and switched the projector off. Another FJ puke.
The Ancient Mariner
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It's a really sad day for all those involved in MRA4...as has been said above, this is a life's work for some of the engineering guys involved. They've lived and breathed this project for so long, and now not only is it canned, but probably their jobs too. Good luck folks.
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Feeling very numb and betrayed tonight!
The arrogance and ignorance of our politicians and leadership is astounding. To throw away such a capability just beggars belief, especially as the world today is a more dangerous place than in the past. Even more galling is the fact that its a world that the current crop of politicians have created through their outstanding incompetence.
Thoughts also go out to the Harrier guys, the people of Wittering and surrounding area. However, my main thoughts are with the guys and girls at Kinloss many of whom are in shock and will be for some time to come.
The arrogance and ignorance of our politicians and leadership is astounding. To throw away such a capability just beggars belief, especially as the world today is a more dangerous place than in the past. Even more galling is the fact that its a world that the current crop of politicians have created through their outstanding incompetence.
Thoughts also go out to the Harrier guys, the people of Wittering and surrounding area. However, my main thoughts are with the guys and girls at Kinloss many of whom are in shock and will be for some time to come.
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Going to be a lot of unemployed Multi-Engine Aircrew in the next few years then.
MRA4 gone, Kinloss closed.
Lyneham closed - C130J retired early to be replaced by A400M.
7 C17s
22 A400M
13 FSTA
Not a lot of seats on flight decks and in freight bays there
MRA4 gone, Kinloss closed.
Lyneham closed - C130J retired early to be replaced by A400M.
7 C17s
22 A400M
13 FSTA
Not a lot of seats on flight decks and in freight bays there
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Well, Rossian, after you'd briefed him, he DID know and in round figures (VERY round figures) what percentage difference did it make to him? Did he castigate his underlings for not briefing him adequately beforehand? Did he go away fired with enthusiasm to pursue the Maritime cause?
Fair cop, the questions were rhetorical.
Or perhaps it was simply that he didn't have the clout he thought he had in the corridors of power, after all, there were never any plans to sell the Nimrod abroad, so no cash incentives there then.
It was ever thus though, I was a wettie from '73 to '96 and, from the various jobs I did and the various high ranking officers that I briefed, the one VSO who probably had the best grasp of, and the greatest respect for, what we did was a US General, commander of the 8th Air Force who visited us when his B52s were carrying out trials on air launched Harpoons out of St Mawgan.
Alas, the UK Maritime effort follows that of the Netherlands, consigned to the history books until it all turns sour and we are left wondering who left the back door open.
My very deepest sympathies for those at and around ISK, service and civilian, local and non-local, who have been left in the lurch by this palpably bad decision, although, as stated earlier, the corporate greed of the British defence industry must surely take a large slice of the blame (they won't, of course).
Fair cop, the questions were rhetorical.
Or perhaps it was simply that he didn't have the clout he thought he had in the corridors of power, after all, there were never any plans to sell the Nimrod abroad, so no cash incentives there then.
It was ever thus though, I was a wettie from '73 to '96 and, from the various jobs I did and the various high ranking officers that I briefed, the one VSO who probably had the best grasp of, and the greatest respect for, what we did was a US General, commander of the 8th Air Force who visited us when his B52s were carrying out trials on air launched Harpoons out of St Mawgan.
Alas, the UK Maritime effort follows that of the Netherlands, consigned to the history books until it all turns sour and we are left wondering who left the back door open.
My very deepest sympathies for those at and around ISK, service and civilian, local and non-local, who have been left in the lurch by this palpably bad decision, although, as stated earlier, the corporate greed of the British defence industry must surely take a large slice of the blame (they won't, of course).
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It is indeed a tragic day for everyone involved with Nimrod, but a lot of people could see this coming for a long time. In agreement with an earlier post, the original decision to pick Nimrod for upgrade was utterly ludicrous. Whoever thought of mating new wings and engines to a 50 year old airframe should have been quietly taken away to a mental institute, and kept on thought suppressing drugs for the rest of their days. Anyone who knows anything about British built aircraft, especially from the Comet era, knows that no 2 aircraft are the same.
Then, to choose a company that has the unenviable record of persistently delivering products, late, over budget, and not up to specification. The recipe for a disaster was well and truly mixed. Indeed, the RAF has signed up with this company to provide all its support capability for the next generation and beyond. What a joke. To take more than 15 years to bring an aircraft into operation is truly criminal, and can only be put down to incompetence on the part of many of the uniformed buffoons with scrambled egg all over their uniforms, and their civilian equivalents who allowed the project to get to today, and its unfortunate cancellation.
Then, to choose a company that has the unenviable record of persistently delivering products, late, over budget, and not up to specification. The recipe for a disaster was well and truly mixed. Indeed, the RAF has signed up with this company to provide all its support capability for the next generation and beyond. What a joke. To take more than 15 years to bring an aircraft into operation is truly criminal, and can only be put down to incompetence on the part of many of the uniformed buffoons with scrambled egg all over their uniforms, and their civilian equivalents who allowed the project to get to today, and its unfortunate cancellation.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I was thinking hind tit even back in the 50s/60s. Our dispersal was Ballykelly and we had flush toilets. The great unwashed permanent residents had to make do with elsans.
Toxic Small Person...
....what he did after he left I have no idea. I went the scruffs in despair.
However,comma, until Tom Mangold did his Panorama prog (The Deep Cold War) a 100 years ago, almost no-one WITHIN the RAF knew what Nimrods did because it was so bloody classified.
Talk about it outside the MAAU, and the SIB were feeling one's collar. Red Beastie event anyone??
This mindset continued into later developments for very good reasons. Outcome? Widespread ignorance inside the service.
The Ancient Mariner
However,comma, until Tom Mangold did his Panorama prog (The Deep Cold War) a 100 years ago, almost no-one WITHIN the RAF knew what Nimrods did because it was so bloody classified.
Talk about it outside the MAAU, and the SIB were feeling one's collar. Red Beastie event anyone??
This mindset continued into later developments for very good reasons. Outcome? Widespread ignorance inside the service.
The Ancient Mariner
Sympathies from afar to all at Kinloss and all crew that would have flown the MR4.................many years of happy flying on the mighty hunter world will not be the same without them keeping the Island safe. Who needs enemies any more we can self destruct from within. Hope you all find good jobs away from the madness guys.
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'Going to be a lot of unemployed Multi-Engine Aircrew in the next few years then.'
Ah the great growbag attitude!! I feel its time to listen to the sound of progress approaching and realise that the day of the UAV IS approaching and some of you will be out of job. In just the same way that the increasing habit of contracting out maintenance has cost engineers jobs!!
Ah the great growbag attitude!! I feel its time to listen to the sound of progress approaching and realise that the day of the UAV IS approaching and some of you will be out of job. In just the same way that the increasing habit of contracting out maintenance has cost engineers jobs!!
Gentleman Aviator
One remembers in the last SDR one was in Whitehall and some brave SO1(not me!) says to a VSO:
"How small does the RAF have to get before we have to drop a major role?"
VSO not very pleased, talked of "greater efficiency" blah. I guess we know the answer now.............
"How small does the RAF have to get before we have to drop a major role?"
VSO not very pleased, talked of "greater efficiency" blah. I guess we know the answer now.............
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Tester 78
What a sensible voice on a website that says so many silly things.
The truth is we need a maritime surveillance ac as a maritime nation. And yes, the Nimrod has had its problems in its early days, mainly political from Govt and BAES, but all who built it as engineers, and those who fly it as professional maritimers, seem to say it delivers the capability they want. What more can you ask?
Lets hope the other great batlle (I was a fighter puke) of WW2 is not forgotten!
(Sorry havent' twigged how to do quotes)
What a sensible voice on a website that says so many silly things.
The truth is we need a maritime surveillance ac as a maritime nation. And yes, the Nimrod has had its problems in its early days, mainly political from Govt and BAES, but all who built it as engineers, and those who fly it as professional maritimers, seem to say it delivers the capability they want. What more can you ask?
Lets hope the other great batlle (I was a fighter puke) of WW2 is not forgotten!
(Sorry havent' twigged how to do quotes)
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I started writing a whole epic on why we should keep the LRMP ISTAR asset, but I stopped. I realised that no matter how much I vented my spleen it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference! The announcements have been made, and I guess we (as a nation) will have to live with that.
To all the girls and boys of ISK with whom I have worked with over the past 19 years and over 4k hrs - Thankyou. You have been the epitomy of professionalism and the best example of the RAF team working together to deliver the result. We should all be proud of what we have acheived.
Shadwell - shout louder, some folk are still on shift and might not hear you!
To those who on other threads who think that these "cuts" could have been worse and are tactical and not finacial - wake up-you could (will)be next.
OC Kinloss - Thanks you for your sincerety and honesty. 1986 was obviously a good year!
To the wider VPI community - Tonight, one of your own is no more. Remain true to the spirit of the MPA, remember us with fond thoughts. Raise a glass to us in the bar.
And whenever a senior officer or a politician remarks on a lack of MPA or an ISTAR asset, remind them of the Kinloss Wing, Maritime's First (201 Sqn) and Maritime's Finest (ISK)
ZKJ
To all the girls and boys of ISK with whom I have worked with over the past 19 years and over 4k hrs - Thankyou. You have been the epitomy of professionalism and the best example of the RAF team working together to deliver the result. We should all be proud of what we have acheived.
Shadwell - shout louder, some folk are still on shift and might not hear you!
To those who on other threads who think that these "cuts" could have been worse and are tactical and not finacial - wake up-you could (will)be next.
OC Kinloss - Thanks you for your sincerety and honesty. 1986 was obviously a good year!
To the wider VPI community - Tonight, one of your own is no more. Remain true to the spirit of the MPA, remember us with fond thoughts. Raise a glass to us in the bar.
And whenever a senior officer or a politician remarks on a lack of MPA or an ISTAR asset, remind them of the Kinloss Wing, Maritime's First (201 Sqn) and Maritime's Finest (ISK)
ZKJ