Should officers spend compulsory time in the ranks?
Believe it or not, the Air Force actually needs Ox-Bridge graduates for higher up the food chain. It may take some time for them to learn the job, but isn't that one of the roles of the FS and WO - mentoring Junior Officers?
That said, you will often see a number of these high flyers who are more like low flyers supported by occasional updraughts, and just because you have a number of letters after your name no way confers the ability to be a good officer. In these cases, I seriously doubt that time in the ranks would provide much in the way of benefit and would only detract from competent airmen trying to do their jobs. Incidentally, where would you put a future pilot, WSO etc? Ops, the tower, SWO's Gang?
In short, I can't really see what benefit spending time in the ranks would confer. People are selected to be officers because of their leadership potential; that they can come in post school, university or after another initial career suggests that they are expected to have the potential to lead already. That they have little common sense or service ability is another matter; that is why they go through 8 months of IOT and should then spend time listening to their seniors and WOs.
By the way, as for 'airmen tendancies', I wouldn't get too wrapped around the axle Old Fella. As has been pointed out, it's just one of those hoops that have to be jumped through at IOT rather than being a class war issue. I don't think there is a specific definition of what constitutes 'airman tendancies', but a good yardstick might be whether you would introduce someone to your baby sister!
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Dead or alive, the aircrew I referred to come straight in to a place previously preserved for those of a certain amount of earned status and respect.
Aircrew hold the rank, they are as entitled as any other SNCO to mess membership, get a life.
By the way - calling siggies Nimrod coffee boys is pathetic, frankly, and shows how little you know about what they do.
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Airpig,
You are a bigoted uninformed cnut and I will now happily prove why you are a bigoted uninformed cnut.
I joined the RAF in 1974 as a young aircraft mechanic did my time and was promoted to substantive Sgt in my ground trade in early 1987. In that time I did a mechs course and a fitters course, GST and TMT as a Cpl and GST and TMT as a Sgt.
In 1989, already 2 years as a Sgt I was selected for Airmen Aircrew, went off and did my basic training all over again and eventually graduated again as a Sgt in Dec of that year.
The basic Airmen Aircrew course was without doubt the toughest training regime I had ever faced. We had a variety of ex ground trades guys and girls with us and only the firemen and rocks could recall facing ever facing anything quite so demanding.
The young Sgt that so offends you has been seen and done stuff that fat knackers like yourself would wake up at night in a cold sweat having merely dreamt about.
"Dead or alive, the aircrew I referred to come straight in to a place previously preserved for those of a certain amount of earned status and respect."
Just to correct you, they come into a place and live alongside a small bunch of jealous small minded individuals who have either, tried and failed, were just too wheezy to hack it in the first place or simply lacked the "minerals" at an earlier age to achieve what these young men have, and as you have proved that really sticks in the craw.
The only saving grace for the RAF in general is that, should your profile be accurate, you are 52 which means we only have to put up with your small minded bigotry for 3 more years
You are a bigoted uninformed cnut and I will now happily prove why you are a bigoted uninformed cnut.
I joined the RAF in 1974 as a young aircraft mechanic did my time and was promoted to substantive Sgt in my ground trade in early 1987. In that time I did a mechs course and a fitters course, GST and TMT as a Cpl and GST and TMT as a Sgt.
In 1989, already 2 years as a Sgt I was selected for Airmen Aircrew, went off and did my basic training all over again and eventually graduated again as a Sgt in Dec of that year.
The basic Airmen Aircrew course was without doubt the toughest training regime I had ever faced. We had a variety of ex ground trades guys and girls with us and only the firemen and rocks could recall facing ever facing anything quite so demanding.
The young Sgt that so offends you has been seen and done stuff that fat knackers like yourself would wake up at night in a cold sweat having merely dreamt about.
"Dead or alive, the aircrew I referred to come straight in to a place previously preserved for those of a certain amount of earned status and respect."
Just to correct you, they come into a place and live alongside a small bunch of jealous small minded individuals who have either, tried and failed, were just too wheezy to hack it in the first place or simply lacked the "minerals" at an earlier age to achieve what these young men have, and as you have proved that really sticks in the craw.
The only saving grace for the RAF in general is that, should your profile be accurate, you are 52 which means we only have to put up with your small minded bigotry for 3 more years
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
On paper this seems a better idea however there are draw backs.
The training systems have a requirement for a number of bums on seats. If the IOT chop rate was, say, 25% rather than near 99%, then it follows that you would need a whole additional course per year with all that that entails in capitation and infrastructure costs.
Once out of IOT the real work begins. For aircrew the courses begin with ground school followed by a gentle introduction to flying. Then it used to ramp up quite quickly with apptitudes and capacity being stretched. Like a horse race this is where the first casualties would occur with pilots being back streamed to Nav and Nav to Provost (for instance). ATC and ABM have similar capacity issues.
Even the scribbly trades are not simple attendance courses and on any there is a possibility of being chopped because you did slip through IOT although someone with very good aptitude and poor OQ may well continue.
Oh, and Airmen Tendencies? I think that is becoming apparent in this thread.
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For examples of 'Airmen Tendencies' wander across to EGoat. (A brilliant idea of a Website, unfortunately now hijacked by a Hard Core of dubious posters).
The 'Airmen Tendencies' of more and more of the posters seem to revolve around 'Gay Bashing' and 'Anal Intercourse'.
As opposed to PPRune where 'Spey Bashing' and 'Annual Intercourse' pops up regularly. The age difference of the posters to the two sites may have a bearing of course.
The 'Airmen Tendencies' of more and more of the posters seem to revolve around 'Gay Bashing' and 'Anal Intercourse'.
As opposed to PPRune where 'Spey Bashing' and 'Annual Intercourse' pops up regularly. The age difference of the posters to the two sites may have a bearing of course.
Well, just to lighten things a bit, we had one ex-apprentoid on 14GE at RAFC who was told that he had "Un-officerlike bone structure"...
I kid you not!
Spend time in the ranks? No. Certainly not for GD Aircrew as the cost would be simply prohibitive and the time would be a total waste. For baby plumbers, the revised EngO's course exposes them to the demands of leadership rather earlier than it once did.
The 'Plastic sergeant' grumbles from certain city father SNCOs will doubtless continue as they always have..... Mind you, the behaviour of some 'Mighty Muncher' crews down route has often added strength to the city fathers' case, I regret to say.
I kid you not!
Spend time in the ranks? No. Certainly not for GD Aircrew as the cost would be simply prohibitive and the time would be a total waste. For baby plumbers, the revised EngO's course exposes them to the demands of leadership rather earlier than it once did.
The 'Plastic sergeant' grumbles from certain city father SNCOs will doubtless continue as they always have..... Mind you, the behaviour of some 'Mighty Muncher' crews down route has often added strength to the city fathers' case, I regret to say.
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Airpig
Your post smacks of jealousy and bitterness. The SNCOs you refer to were bright, intelligent and motivated enough to join as aircrew from the off. Those that missed that boat were driven and motivated enough to go to the Chief Clerk and get a Gen App and apply for aircrew duties.
So it would seem you were neither bright, intelligent nor motivated enough to apply to be aircrew. That, or you couldn't find the Chief Clerk's office or hold a pen to fill the gen app. So who's fault is that?
Or did you apply and fail?
Shame on you either way.
SFFP
Good post and well put.
Your post smacks of jealousy and bitterness. The SNCOs you refer to were bright, intelligent and motivated enough to join as aircrew from the off. Those that missed that boat were driven and motivated enough to go to the Chief Clerk and get a Gen App and apply for aircrew duties.
So it would seem you were neither bright, intelligent nor motivated enough to apply to be aircrew. That, or you couldn't find the Chief Clerk's office or hold a pen to fill the gen app. So who's fault is that?
Or did you apply and fail?
Shame on you either way.
SFFP
Good post and well put.
Gentleman Aviator
Hmmmmmm compulsory service as a "blighter" eh - so then our senior officers would be as good as those of the civvy plods, all of whom do 2 years on the beat ..... don't think so!
... not quite correct grimweasel.
You may have been "robbed" of 3 years not 5, as airmen's (or soldiers' or ratings') reckonable service for pension purposes dates from 18 - which by a strange coincidence is exactly the number of years of which I was "robbed", by virtue of being commissioned at 18. Had my 21st on my first squadron, not unusual in them days for the "gutter entry"...
don't think so!
I joined at 16 as a Junior Leader and when I traded up to Officer class a few years back I was told my pension now started at 21!!
So I have been robbed of 5 years pensionable service
So I have been robbed of 5 years pensionable service
You may have been "robbed" of 3 years not 5, as airmen's (or soldiers' or ratings') reckonable service for pension purposes dates from 18 - which by a strange coincidence is exactly the number of years of which I was "robbed", by virtue of being commissioned at 18. Had my 21st on my first squadron, not unusual in them days for the "gutter entry"...
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"Oh, and Airmen Tendencies? I think that is becoming apparent in this thread."
The only saving grace for the modern Royal Air Force is that this sort of class attitude is almost a thing of the past
The only saving grace for the modern Royal Air Force is that this sort of class attitude is almost a thing of the past
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Should all teachers be parents before they are let loose in a school?
Should all nurses and doctors suffer major illnesses/accidents before they work in a hospital?
Should prison officers do some porridge before they work in a prison?
Should all bankers work in a call centre before they go to the "City"?
Should all MP's "work" before they are appointed?
Should job centre employees be unemployed before they become CS?
I'm sure there are many more that imaginative Pruners could come up with but the simple answer IMHO is no.
However I reckon everyone should spend time in a care home before they get old, 'cos, as a Knackered old fart, I can truthfully report that it's no fun getting old and nothing will prepare you better than a dose of reality!
Should all nurses and doctors suffer major illnesses/accidents before they work in a hospital?
Should prison officers do some porridge before they work in a prison?
Should all bankers work in a call centre before they go to the "City"?
Should all MP's "work" before they are appointed?
Should job centre employees be unemployed before they become CS?
I'm sure there are many more that imaginative Pruners could come up with but the simple answer IMHO is no.
However I reckon everyone should spend time in a care home before they get old, 'cos, as a Knackered old fart, I can truthfully report that it's no fun getting old and nothing will prepare you better than a dose of reality!
Should officers spend compulsory time in the ranks?
YES.
All officers should spend 1 month in the ranks.
This time to be spent on Guard duty.
Maybe, this will prevent some of them (you know the one's) from being a proverbial pain in the
when stopped for a routine search by a young airman who is just doing his job, and doesn't need the hassle.
All officers should spend 1 month in the ranks.
This time to be spent on Guard duty.
Maybe, this will prevent some of them (you know the one's) from being a proverbial pain in the
when stopped for a routine search by a young airman who is just doing his job, and doesn't need the hassle.
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Obvious answer is no. Many PPruners have given their thoughts on the matter.
However, some aspects of Officer/Airmen linking does serve a purpose, and produces some suprising results.
Back in the '80's, at an F3 base in North Yorkshire, we had a steady stream of ex IOT Plt Offs/Fg Offs that were 'holding' awaiting BFTS. A few 'held' on the Air Ops side of the WOC. To make their lives a bit more interesting, we used them as Air Ops Assistants and taught them the basics. Nothing too deep (a little knowledge being a dangerous thing). How to read/write and action a signal, liaison with outside agencies, AD Radar Units, other Ops Rooms, RAF telephone speak etc etc. Almost all appreciated what we did to assist them.
A few years later, I bumped into one particular guy (who had passed through the system) and had become CR on an FJ squadron as a Flt Lt. I will admit I had difficulty remembering who he was, although he recognised me instantly.
In conversation in the bar, he recalled his 'U/T Ops Assistant days' and commented how much it had helped him through his RAF career. One comment he made that stuck with me was "that it made him feel part of the RAF team". He also commented how respectful he was, at the depth of knowledge, and expertise, of the Airmen that he had come into contact with."Something that IOT hadn't prepared him for" (his words. my bold).
That guy is now a 1*. (Edited:Wrong rank, he's a Group Captain)
Professional Airmen and Professional Officers (and repect on both sides) makes a Professional Team. A combination you cannot beat.
However, some aspects of Officer/Airmen linking does serve a purpose, and produces some suprising results.
Back in the '80's, at an F3 base in North Yorkshire, we had a steady stream of ex IOT Plt Offs/Fg Offs that were 'holding' awaiting BFTS. A few 'held' on the Air Ops side of the WOC. To make their lives a bit more interesting, we used them as Air Ops Assistants and taught them the basics. Nothing too deep (a little knowledge being a dangerous thing). How to read/write and action a signal, liaison with outside agencies, AD Radar Units, other Ops Rooms, RAF telephone speak etc etc. Almost all appreciated what we did to assist them.
A few years later, I bumped into one particular guy (who had passed through the system) and had become CR on an FJ squadron as a Flt Lt. I will admit I had difficulty remembering who he was, although he recognised me instantly.
In conversation in the bar, he recalled his 'U/T Ops Assistant days' and commented how much it had helped him through his RAF career. One comment he made that stuck with me was "that it made him feel part of the RAF team". He also commented how respectful he was, at the depth of knowledge, and expertise, of the Airmen that he had come into contact with."Something that IOT hadn't prepared him for" (his words. my bold).
That guy is now a 1*. (Edited:Wrong rank, he's a Group Captain)
Professional Airmen and Professional Officers (and repect on both sides) makes a Professional Team. A combination you cannot beat.
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Taxydual
What a refreshing attitude, well said, 
I think the RAF is actually getting closer to that attitude today the it ever was. That's just my perception from recent limited exposure. There will always be exceptions of course
Leadership is a skill just like diagnosing a problem to integrated circuit component level on a modern jet is a skill. Not a better skill just another skill.
Professional Airmen and Professional Officers (and repect on both sides) makes a Professional Team. A combination you cannot beat.
I think the RAF is actually getting closer to that attitude today the it ever was. That's just my perception from recent limited exposure. There will always be exceptions of courseLeadership is a skill just like diagnosing a problem to integrated circuit component level on a modern jet is a skill. Not a better skill just another skill.
Airpig,
when you enter this forum, please read the small print under the title. At no point does it state
'A forum for embittered and retired types who moan about, and judge those presently serving with a rose tinted glow of nostalgia for a service long faded'.
Many of those plastic sergeants are flying around Iraq and Helmand as you read this, providing a lifeline to those on the ground.
Now bugger off back to the British Legion and bore the locals with stories of how great the service was when you were there.
Your not wanted here. If I had to guess, I'd guess your not really wanted anywhere.
Pr1ck!
when you enter this forum, please read the small print under the title. At no point does it state
'A forum for embittered and retired types who moan about, and judge those presently serving with a rose tinted glow of nostalgia for a service long faded'.
Many of those plastic sergeants are flying around Iraq and Helmand as you read this, providing a lifeline to those on the ground.
Now bugger off back to the British Legion and bore the locals with stories of how great the service was when you were there.
Your not wanted here. If I had to guess, I'd guess your not really wanted anywhere.
Pr1ck!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
SFFP, you may like to think so but I know for a fact that the issue of AT was alive and well in OASC fairly recently.
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Fortuitously most of the young folk I encounter, fresh from the college of blockage or even those a little longer in the tooth have seen through the propaganda that you and your ilk, high in your Ivory towers propogate.
Maybe what I should have posted was "outside of training establishments, often staffed by rubber desk johnnies and old folk living in the past, the real Royal Air Force has grown up and now consigned the class thing to the history books.
That is certainly my experiance of the current front line crop
Maybe what I should have posted was "outside of training establishments, often staffed by rubber desk johnnies and old folk living in the past, the real Royal Air Force has grown up and now consigned the class thing to the history books.
That is certainly my experiance of the current front line crop
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I had the great fortune to have a marvellous Flt Sgt when I found myself as a GD officer in charge of a bunch of engineers as their boss: would have been lost without him.
Then I had the combined wisdom and wit of the Air Engs and AEOps at Finningley on the Dom Sqn to keep my feet on the ground: Brian D******y, more of an officer than many, many officers, Paul B*****n, another great guy, one could go on, however, we were all one big,happy-ish bunch, first name terms and mutual respect.
Works every time.
Then I had the combined wisdom and wit of the Air Engs and AEOps at Finningley on the Dom Sqn to keep my feet on the ground: Brian D******y, more of an officer than many, many officers, Paul B*****n, another great guy, one could go on, however, we were all one big,happy-ish bunch, first name terms and mutual respect.
Works every time.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Maybe what I should have posted was "outside of training establishments, often staffed by rubber desk johnnies and old folk living in the past, the real Royal Air Force has grown up and now consigned the class thing to the history books.
Some obvious airmen or NCA posting here on pprune do NOT demonstrate AT and would probably have little trouble if they went for a commission. I won't name names for fear of embarassing them.
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'God created man in his own image'.
Could it be that OASC/IOT instructors (and those above them) have the same policy?
Can 'characters' still pass the 'College of Knowledge?' Or has it become just a production line?
Oh, this is not wishing to stir things, It's a genuine query. I retired a few years ago but had a foot in both 'camps' as it were. Swinderby and Henlow.
I got the feeling then, but ignored it, that we ex-Henlow guys were 'second class' citizens. At least, we had some characters.
Could it be that OASC/IOT instructors (and those above them) have the same policy?
Can 'characters' still pass the 'College of Knowledge?' Or has it become just a production line?
Oh, this is not wishing to stir things, It's a genuine query. I retired a few years ago but had a foot in both 'camps' as it were. Swinderby and Henlow.
I got the feeling then, but ignored it, that we ex-Henlow guys were 'second class' citizens. At least, we had some characters.
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I think ZH875 has a good idea there,
doing station guard for a short period would probably go a long way to encouraging the empathy or understanding that some JO's lack...without actually taking too much time up from what is otherwise a busy schedule getting the JO into productive service.
'Airman tendencies' is a very unfortunate choice of terminology that reveals an underlying class bias that has no place in any professional organisation, or any organisation that hopes to appear professional anyway . That doesn't mean that everyone who uses the phrase is actually biased in this manner, but it's most assuredly a danger signal... put it another way, back in 1970 you could get away with calling somebody a 'nigger' ('Love Thy Neighbour' even made, God help us all, a comedy series out of this). Today nobody would dream of using that word, unless they were a genuine dikchead looking for broken teeth... one day 'AT' will be seen for the demeaning, worthless label that it is.
Has it ever crossed the minds of the AT label bestowing blockheads that somebody with these tendencies (whatever they might be) could perhaps adapt over time, becoming much more the sort of chap one wants in the mess etc etc. whilst retaining their inate intelligence (and, if we are talking ex SNCO, low cunning) but a fukcwit with good manners will always be a fukcwit? I'd rather train up a bright huy with rough edges than a numpty who was never baffled by the sight of three different forks - perhaps OASC/IOT ought to be looked at for 'elitist tendencies'?
doing station guard for a short period would probably go a long way to encouraging the empathy or understanding that some JO's lack...without actually taking too much time up from what is otherwise a busy schedule getting the JO into productive service.
'Airman tendencies' is a very unfortunate choice of terminology that reveals an underlying class bias that has no place in any professional organisation, or any organisation that hopes to appear professional anyway . That doesn't mean that everyone who uses the phrase is actually biased in this manner, but it's most assuredly a danger signal... put it another way, back in 1970 you could get away with calling somebody a 'nigger' ('Love Thy Neighbour' even made, God help us all, a comedy series out of this). Today nobody would dream of using that word, unless they were a genuine dikchead looking for broken teeth... one day 'AT' will be seen for the demeaning, worthless label that it is.
Has it ever crossed the minds of the AT label bestowing blockheads that somebody with these tendencies (whatever they might be) could perhaps adapt over time, becoming much more the sort of chap one wants in the mess etc etc. whilst retaining their inate intelligence (and, if we are talking ex SNCO, low cunning) but a fukcwit with good manners will always be a fukcwit? I'd rather train up a bright huy with rough edges than a numpty who was never baffled by the sight of three different forks - perhaps OASC/IOT ought to be looked at for 'elitist tendencies'?