Should officers spend compulsory time in the ranks?
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Should officers spend compulsory time in the ranks?
Thought I would ask you Officer types of PPRuNe if you think that junior officers ought to spend time in the ranks.
After 14 years of service, I have worked for three or four officers younger than myself. I have had very little trouble with this, however they have such little experience, that they have to ask questions all the time.
They build their experience by "using" their SNCO's and JNCO's knowledge.
If they were to spend a couple of years as a JNCO, or at least in a JNCO post, this would help them see what it is really like on the shop floor.
I feel it would also help the way that they are perceived by junior ranks across the board.
I have found that the best officers I have worked for have come from the ranks.
After 14 years of service, I have worked for three or four officers younger than myself. I have had very little trouble with this, however they have such little experience, that they have to ask questions all the time.
They build their experience by "using" their SNCO's and JNCO's knowledge.
If they were to spend a couple of years as a JNCO, or at least in a JNCO post, this would help them see what it is really like on the shop floor.
I feel it would also help the way that they are perceived by junior ranks across the board.
I have found that the best officers I have worked for have come from the ranks.
Officers.
Able to tell you the atomic density of a jar of jam, couldnt tell you how to get the lid off.
It works in the format we currently have. Lets not fix something that isnt broken.
Able to tell you the atomic density of a jar of jam, couldnt tell you how to get the lid off.
It works in the format we currently have. Lets not fix something that isnt broken.
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Agree with the beret problem - why can't they be taught the art of beret-wearing?
As for serving in the ranks, you then spend 6-9 months training someone to do a job for 15-18 months that they'll never do again, and lots of good potential officers would not join without a confirmed place on IOT, so you can't make everyone join in the ranks and only select for commissioning once they've done a couple of years.
Bring back five years as officer cadets, like my father had. Went to Dartmouth at 13, passed out into fleet training at 18, by which time he'd had a very good academic training, and learned an immense amount of naval knowledge, too. By the time he was 18 he could solder, weld, braze, rivet, and also strip and rebuild engines, weapons and basic radio kit. He was a seaman officer....
As for serving in the ranks, you then spend 6-9 months training someone to do a job for 15-18 months that they'll never do again, and lots of good potential officers would not join without a confirmed place on IOT, so you can't make everyone join in the ranks and only select for commissioning once they've done a couple of years.
Bring back five years as officer cadets, like my father had. Went to Dartmouth at 13, passed out into fleet training at 18, by which time he'd had a very good academic training, and learned an immense amount of naval knowledge, too. By the time he was 18 he could solder, weld, braze, rivet, and also strip and rebuild engines, weapons and basic radio kit. He was a seaman officer....
Donaldo...
Nice to see you trolling here now...
Did you get bored here Should officers spend compulsory time in the ranks? - E-Goat :: The Totally Unofficial Royal Air Force Rumour Network forums
Nice to see you trolling here now...
Did you get bored here Should officers spend compulsory time in the ranks? - E-Goat :: The Totally Unofficial Royal Air Force Rumour Network forums
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I believe the RNoAF have this requirement. We also came upon an elderly gent in VASF at Lista. He had had time promotion in that one job, I believe he was a Lt Col.
Now in the RAF, to put all JO into airmen billets to JNCO rank would displace many airmen from getting promotion. As Cpls have rather more experience than even a new flt lt, just how long would you propose that officers serve before promotion?
Pretty clearly the OP was refering to Logs and HR rather than aircrew or ops support as they rarely get close enough to airmen.
The new officer is not expected to be as proficient in the trade as the SNCO but a good one will learn quickly from that SNCO.
Many years ago it was the norm for crusty SNCOs to help and mentor plt off and fg off but to expect a flt lt to know which way was up. Since many flt lt were straight out of training this was quite difficult for the new JEngO.
Now in the RAF, to put all JO into airmen billets to JNCO rank would displace many airmen from getting promotion. As Cpls have rather more experience than even a new flt lt, just how long would you propose that officers serve before promotion?
Pretty clearly the OP was refering to Logs and HR rather than aircrew or ops support as they rarely get close enough to airmen.
The new officer is not expected to be as proficient in the trade as the SNCO but a good one will learn quickly from that SNCO.
Many years ago it was the norm for crusty SNCOs to help and mentor plt off and fg off but to expect a flt lt to know which way was up. Since many flt lt were straight out of training this was quite difficult for the new JEngO.
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No,
the good guys will pick it up from SNCOs as they progress, the idiots won't get the idea if they spend 300 years as an SAC.
This really hurts, but I agree with MGD!
the good guys will pick it up from SNCOs as they progress, the idiots won't get the idea if they spend 300 years as an SAC.
This really hurts, but I agree with MGD!
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So if you have guys going into the ranks who know that in xx months they are off to IOT, some will try hard to learn, some will do the minimum, and some will be complete pillocks telling everyone they are off to IOT soon. Not so great for morale and teamwork.
Leave it well alone. It's not that broken.
Leave it well alone. It's not that broken.
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I wish I'd spent 3 years in the ranks - the reason being I was commissioned 2 weeks before my 18th birthday and none of my service from then till my 21st birthday counts as pensionable service. If I had been in the ranks all service from 18 would have counted. I have never seen the justice in that, but that's the way it is.
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MARINE CORPS MUSTANG ASSOCIATION
The Answer is:
Any Marine, after having served on active duty in the enlisted ranks of the United States Marine Corps or Marine Corps Reserve, has risen to the officer ranks, and further served as a commissioned or warrant officer on either active duty or reserve status. The title includes all such Marines: active duty, reserve, retired, and/or honorably discharge.
The title of a Marine of this status is, and shall evermore be...MUSTANG!
"There is no honor greater than to be called "Mustang". You have long epitomized the warrior virtues of courage, devotion to duty, sacrifice, and imaginative leadership."
General Alfred M. Gray USMC, 29th Commandant of the Marine Corps and a Mustang.
Semper Fidelis – Marines
The USMC has a long tradition of Mustang officers... and a large percentage of its Commandants were former enlisted.
What is a Marine Mustang?
The Answer is:
Any Marine, after having served on active duty in the enlisted ranks of the United States Marine Corps or Marine Corps Reserve, has risen to the officer ranks, and further served as a commissioned or warrant officer on either active duty or reserve status. The title includes all such Marines: active duty, reserve, retired, and/or honorably discharge.
The title of a Marine of this status is, and shall evermore be...MUSTANG!
"There is no honor greater than to be called "Mustang". You have long epitomized the warrior virtues of courage, devotion to duty, sacrifice, and imaginative leadership."
General Alfred M. Gray USMC, 29th Commandant of the Marine Corps and a Mustang.
Semper Fidelis – Marines
The USMC has a long tradition of Mustang officers... and a large percentage of its Commandants were former enlisted.
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Mate, you reckon?
I joined at 16 as a Junior Leader and when I traded up to Officer class a few years back I was told my pension now started at 21!!
So I have been robbed of 5 years pensionable service -- unless of course I went onto the new scheme where it would be backdated to my 16th B-Day - but there is no chance of that....
So my question is, why am I being robbed of 5 years?? It's almost a punishment for 'upgrading' in life ???
I joined at 16 as a Junior Leader and when I traded up to Officer class a few years back I was told my pension now started at 21!!
So I have been robbed of 5 years pensionable service -- unless of course I went onto the new scheme where it would be backdated to my 16th B-Day - but there is no chance of that....
So my question is, why am I being robbed of 5 years?? It's almost a punishment for 'upgrading' in life ???
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In 1985,at TTTE, I was crewed up with an IAF Tente Colonello who was fragged to go to back to his old Sqn as OC. 22 years previously he had been a Cpl F104 pilot on the same sqn and had gone through the ranks until his final posting. Unfotunatley he failed his IRT in the sim due to language problems.
3P
3P
Grimweasel,
I left before the debacle called JPA arrived so actually had humans to sort things out. I believe that 50% of Airman service post 18 till Commissioning date counts towards your pension. May be worth asking The Forces Pension Society as they are an excellent resource.
Cheers
I left before the debacle called JPA arrived so actually had humans to sort things out. I believe that 50% of Airman service post 18 till Commissioning date counts towards your pension. May be worth asking The Forces Pension Society as they are an excellent resource.
Cheers
