Tories to look at pensions.
It's the pensions and early retirement [followed quickly by another job ] of teachers,police and fire service that really annoys the majority of people ......
........Any government that reduces the pensions of those mentioned above and forces them to work to 65 at least would get a lot of support.
........Any government that reduces the pensions of those mentioned above and forces them to work to 65 at least would get a lot of support.
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We obviously don't contribute to our pensions as our pay is reduced as a compensatory measure; no problems so far. However, the issue of working until 65 does not suit the circumstances of our job.
I could understand making a civil servant in Whitehall work to 65 behind a desk but the most military men (and women) are struggling to fulfil their role (deployable) at 55, hence the early retirement age. I thought it also took into account the fact that, by 55, we will possibly have sustained a few knocks, physically and mentally, and may not be in a position to pursue a further "career"?
These points are taken into account when deciding our pension but clearly not understood by all in the media or public.
I could understand making a civil servant in Whitehall work to 65 behind a desk but the most military men (and women) are struggling to fulfil their role (deployable) at 55, hence the early retirement age. I thought it also took into account the fact that, by 55, we will possibly have sustained a few knocks, physically and mentally, and may not be in a position to pursue a further "career"?
These points are taken into account when deciding our pension but clearly not understood by all in the media or public.
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Papajuliet: I don't know too much about police and firefighters returning to work after early retirement, but I do know that teachers who retire early now take a hit on their pension and lump sum entitlements. Once upon a time a teacher could retire early on ill-health and the following day start a lucrative career as a supply teacher. That was stopped by the Tories (Kenneth Baker was the SoS) and was about the only thing they did that I agreed with!
AllyPally: The TPS is unfunded because over the years HMG has used it as a cash cow to pay for other things - among which, presumably, we may find aircraft for the RAF. One of my points was just that - had the money been invested, the scheme would have been fully self-supporting; the fact that it wasn't (and therefore isn't) was caused by acts similar to Broon's raid on private pensions. While largely sympathetic to those in the situation you describe, I have to say that's not my doing; furthermore, why should we suffer just because you are? There was no invitation to join in when you were doing well, was there?
I retired at 61 after 40 years; the last year had been spent absent ill. I was one of those lucky people who enjoyed his job despite its many problems and I always intended working to 65 - PJ please note. On the other hand, had my first career choice been successful, I would have retired at 50 with a handsome gratuity and over the years would have been paid rather more than I was as a teacher. I could also have "retired" at any time to take up a well-paid job in the private sector, while retaining my original pension rights and earning even more in my second career.
Sympathetic? Only partly.
AllyPally: The TPS is unfunded because over the years HMG has used it as a cash cow to pay for other things - among which, presumably, we may find aircraft for the RAF. One of my points was just that - had the money been invested, the scheme would have been fully self-supporting; the fact that it wasn't (and therefore isn't) was caused by acts similar to Broon's raid on private pensions. While largely sympathetic to those in the situation you describe, I have to say that's not my doing; furthermore, why should we suffer just because you are? There was no invitation to join in when you were doing well, was there?
I retired at 61 after 40 years; the last year had been spent absent ill. I was one of those lucky people who enjoyed his job despite its many problems and I always intended working to 65 - PJ please note. On the other hand, had my first career choice been successful, I would have retired at 50 with a handsome gratuity and over the years would have been paid rather more than I was as a teacher. I could also have "retired" at any time to take up a well-paid job in the private sector, while retaining my original pension rights and earning even more in my second career.
Sympathetic? Only partly.
Last edited by exscribbler; 2nd Dec 2008 at 00:22.
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I presume that yer man Cameron is banking on the majority of the British voting public being;
a. sufficiently "sour grapes" to attack Public Servants
b. not Public Servants.
Standby to have the conditions you signed up to being pissed on.
The BNP is looking better by the day!
a. sufficiently "sour grapes" to attack Public Servants
b. not Public Servants.
Standby to have the conditions you signed up to being pissed on.
The BNP is looking better by the day!
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Melch,
I draw a pension so yes.. there could be a whiff of hypocrisy about this, I accept that, but thats looking at this in the wrong light. There's not an issue of fault here.. its just the way it is. We have to plan ahead 30-40, and 70-80 years and that can only be achieved by acting very very soon. If we don't act, it'll be our grandchildren and great grandchildren and great great grandchildren who'll be asking 'what planet were those generations on?'. Having said that, as they just finish paying off the debt we've lumbered them with, I think they'll be asking that of us anyway.
I draw a pension so yes.. there could be a whiff of hypocrisy about this, I accept that, but thats looking at this in the wrong light. There's not an issue of fault here.. its just the way it is. We have to plan ahead 30-40, and 70-80 years and that can only be achieved by acting very very soon. If we don't act, it'll be our grandchildren and great grandchildren and great great grandchildren who'll be asking 'what planet were those generations on?'. Having said that, as they just finish paying off the debt we've lumbered them with, I think they'll be asking that of us anyway.
Melchett said;Al R -
You're right, there is a sustainability gap in terms of public pensions, and the military ones especially. But the government - not just of today - is fully responsible for that. They are the ones that have refused to invest and have instead prefered to keep it as an unfunded commitment, for which money must be found from the budgets on an annual basis to meet its liabilities.
That this is now coming to bite them in the arse is their fault, not ours. They could have done something about it before now, but they chose not to do so. How long has pension affordability been a likely problem? Or are the current generation of politicians suddenly being taken by surprise?!!!
You're right, there is a sustainability gap in terms of public pensions, and the military ones especially. But the government - not just of today - is fully responsible for that. They are the ones that have refused to invest and have instead prefered to keep it as an unfunded commitment, for which money must be found from the budgets on an annual basis to meet its liabilities.
That this is now coming to bite them in the arse is their fault, not ours. They could have done something about it before now, but they chose not to do so. How long has pension affordability been a likely problem? Or are the current generation of politicians suddenly being taken by surprise?!!!
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Ah, the ever emotive issue of pensions.
The military pension trap caught me well and truly. I have to say, if it weren't for the pension at the end of the tunnel I would have left far earlier than I did.
Unfortunately those days are now over! This also applies to the private sector pension schemes as well. The tax protections given to pension funds by the last Tory government were gleefully stripped away by a young, fresh faced chancellor named Gordon Brown after New Labour took power. Over the last 10 years, under his tenure, £90 Billion in taxes have been stripped from private pension funds belonging to many of this countries blue chip firms. Oddly enough those firms are now trying to cover huge pension deficits and are closing all final salary schemes.
Whilst all of this was going on the civil service has exploded. Some might say it has been a farcical way to suppress unemployment figures. Employing useless people into useless jobs under 'exotic new politically correct names'. Each of these Quango people gets their own civil service pension.
The public debt, instead of being adequately serviced, has been allowed to explode along with the private, personal debt of many people. Whilst the Boom was going on the Government has had a gleeful, kiddie like, spending spree on rubbish that hasn't produced any results. NHS national computer system anyone? £20 Billion and it's still not here?
The military have been over abused and drastically underfunded to cover the cost of all of these 'think tanks', 'Quangos' and local council non jobs. Ineffectively managed by useless politicians who think 'tactics' are the little sweets that come out of a plastic box. Two hats Des's comment on the new T45 destroyer summed it up, 'It's twice as powerful so we only need half of them!'. Makes you cry doesn't it.
Melt down is upon us. There is no money left. My military pension added to the pension I am struggling to accrue with my new employer, in an industry where we are taxed just for existing, will just about cover a loaf of bread in 10 years. I am being taxed to death and watching it all go into the pockets of social wasters who are being told to go forth and spend! I can't, after tax and soaring energy bills I have nothing left.
Protect the military pensions, invest in the forces, they are, perhaps, the last thing in this country we have a right to be proud of.
Rant over, now wheres my coffee?
The military pension trap caught me well and truly. I have to say, if it weren't for the pension at the end of the tunnel I would have left far earlier than I did.
Unfortunately those days are now over! This also applies to the private sector pension schemes as well. The tax protections given to pension funds by the last Tory government were gleefully stripped away by a young, fresh faced chancellor named Gordon Brown after New Labour took power. Over the last 10 years, under his tenure, £90 Billion in taxes have been stripped from private pension funds belonging to many of this countries blue chip firms. Oddly enough those firms are now trying to cover huge pension deficits and are closing all final salary schemes.
Whilst all of this was going on the civil service has exploded. Some might say it has been a farcical way to suppress unemployment figures. Employing useless people into useless jobs under 'exotic new politically correct names'. Each of these Quango people gets their own civil service pension.
The public debt, instead of being adequately serviced, has been allowed to explode along with the private, personal debt of many people. Whilst the Boom was going on the Government has had a gleeful, kiddie like, spending spree on rubbish that hasn't produced any results. NHS national computer system anyone? £20 Billion and it's still not here?
The military have been over abused and drastically underfunded to cover the cost of all of these 'think tanks', 'Quangos' and local council non jobs. Ineffectively managed by useless politicians who think 'tactics' are the little sweets that come out of a plastic box. Two hats Des's comment on the new T45 destroyer summed it up, 'It's twice as powerful so we only need half of them!'. Makes you cry doesn't it.
Melt down is upon us. There is no money left. My military pension added to the pension I am struggling to accrue with my new employer, in an industry where we are taxed just for existing, will just about cover a loaf of bread in 10 years. I am being taxed to death and watching it all go into the pockets of social wasters who are being told to go forth and spend! I can't, after tax and soaring energy bills I have nothing left.
Protect the military pensions, invest in the forces, they are, perhaps, the last thing in this country we have a right to be proud of.
Rant over, now wheres my coffee?
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I didn't realise that nurses were paid so much.... I'm in the wrong job....
Revealed: NHS nurse who earns £100,000 - Times Online
Revealed: NHS nurse who earns £100,000 - Times Online
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Spheroid: you're not in the wrong job! I'm just coming to the end of a course of chemotherapy at Weston Park Hospital, Sheffield. If the care I've had from the staff there and at Barnsley General Hospital is anything to go by, they all deserve a big pay rise.
They're more worthy of that kind of salary than any politician - especially our wonderful Home Secretary who affects not to know what her anti-terrorist police are doing when they're out and about arresting Opposition MPs.
BTW, isn't that Bob Mugabe's game?
They're more worthy of that kind of salary than any politician - especially our wonderful Home Secretary who affects not to know what her anti-terrorist police are doing when they're out and about arresting Opposition MPs.
BTW, isn't that Bob Mugabe's game?
I don't often get really riled about something on here, but now is the time.
Listen up all you civil service and local government bashers who haven't got a clue what they are waffling on about (what on PPRuNe, never!!).
I am now a working in local government. The vast majority of us are very poorly paid. I recently suffered a new deal on my pension, pay more and get less at the end. This is a nationwide deal not just local. There are also penalty clauses which say that if I retire before 65 I will lose a huge whack of what is rightfully mine.
I earn considerably less than the national average quoted here and I'm constantly amazed by the fact that some of the people whose benefits I administer get a lot more each month than I take home for working 37 hours a week.
I left the Civil Service as a manager to work in local government as an ordinary bod and got an immediate payrise, so they're no better off either and HMG is pratting them about as well.
I can't see how anyone on here can not see the hypocracy of criticising someone who leaves the Civil Service et al with a pension and then goes on to get another job pretty quickly. It's blindingly stupid to do so considering anyone who leaves the service having completed a full engagement immediatley receives a pension. I know I did so I know what I'm talking about here.
So, as many of us on PPRuNe constantly criticise others inaccuracy when debating issues, get your facts straight before you spout about something you know bu**er all about.
Rant over, normal service resumes WIE!!
Doc C
Well, nearly immediately. I've had a chill pill and I'm better now!!!
Listen up all you civil service and local government bashers who haven't got a clue what they are waffling on about (what on PPRuNe, never!!).
I am now a working in local government. The vast majority of us are very poorly paid. I recently suffered a new deal on my pension, pay more and get less at the end. This is a nationwide deal not just local. There are also penalty clauses which say that if I retire before 65 I will lose a huge whack of what is rightfully mine.
I earn considerably less than the national average quoted here and I'm constantly amazed by the fact that some of the people whose benefits I administer get a lot more each month than I take home for working 37 hours a week.
I left the Civil Service as a manager to work in local government as an ordinary bod and got an immediate payrise, so they're no better off either and HMG is pratting them about as well.
I can't see how anyone on here can not see the hypocracy of criticising someone who leaves the Civil Service et al with a pension and then goes on to get another job pretty quickly. It's blindingly stupid to do so considering anyone who leaves the service having completed a full engagement immediatley receives a pension. I know I did so I know what I'm talking about here.
So, as many of us on PPRuNe constantly criticise others inaccuracy when debating issues, get your facts straight before you spout about something you know bu**er all about.
Rant over, normal service resumes WIE!!
Doc C
Well, nearly immediately. I've had a chill pill and I'm better now!!!
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Fully agree with you Dr C. My sister works in the finance dept of local gov and is stunned by how much more contracting out costs when compared to directly employed labour (deliberate small 'l') even when pensions are factored in. Still, due to the doctrinaire policies of our major parties, they seem to be obsessed with privitising everything. As senior EC people are finding out it simply doesn't work. If you want proof ask yourself - 'Why are large organisiations such as BAe now contracting in services?'.
The 'private first, and last and always' mentality we have had to live with for over a generation is reaching its nadir. We need to get back to a properly balanced economy where both private and government play its part. The problem we have at the moment is government is taking barrowloads full of tax and passing it on to unaccountable quangos and private companies with no gaurantees of service provision (look at any PFI). We are in the worst of all worlds.
Pension provision is a vital part of this argument. Who do private companies suppose is going to pick up the responsibility for their workers once they have finished with them? Once again these companies are passing the burden onto the taxpayer. The reason so many companies closed their pensions had little to do with future burden, and everything to do with short term profit margins. It is these companies that need a dose of reality, not public service workers.
Also why we are still listening to the 'free market' cheerleaders such as those in the Telegraph, most notably Geoff Randall, after they failed to spot this economic crisis? If I'd have missed something as big as that I would have had the good grace to resign and go very quietly indeed!
The problem is all 3 political parties still back these failed policies, we need to get back to 50's & 60's style corporate government.
BTW ExScrib, hope all is going well.
The 'private first, and last and always' mentality we have had to live with for over a generation is reaching its nadir. We need to get back to a properly balanced economy where both private and government play its part. The problem we have at the moment is government is taking barrowloads full of tax and passing it on to unaccountable quangos and private companies with no gaurantees of service provision (look at any PFI). We are in the worst of all worlds.
Pension provision is a vital part of this argument. Who do private companies suppose is going to pick up the responsibility for their workers once they have finished with them? Once again these companies are passing the burden onto the taxpayer. The reason so many companies closed their pensions had little to do with future burden, and everything to do with short term profit margins. It is these companies that need a dose of reality, not public service workers.
Also why we are still listening to the 'free market' cheerleaders such as those in the Telegraph, most notably Geoff Randall, after they failed to spot this economic crisis? If I'd have missed something as big as that I would have had the good grace to resign and go very quietly indeed!
The problem is all 3 political parties still back these failed policies, we need to get back to 50's & 60's style corporate government.
BTW ExScrib, hope all is going well.
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Wasn't it Mrs Thatcher who said that no-one should retire and receive more than one government financed pension ? Or is my memory playing tricks on me again ?
That would bu**er me. I am due to receive four !
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The problem is all 3 political parties still back these failed policies, we need to get back to 50's & 60's style corporate government.
There are also penalty clauses which say that if I retire before 65 I will lose a huge whack of what is rightfully mine.
anyone who leaves the service having completed a full engagement immediatley receives a pension.
some of the people whose benefits I administer
Do you even know how much forces pensions are worth? They are piss-poor compared to your schemes. (I'll give you a clue....it's NOWHERE NEAR 2/3 of final salary....and for many of us, it isn't even final salary!)
CG
Inquisitor, you are ignorant.
My RAF pension gave me about 33% of final salary.
The same length of time in Local Government would give me about 25%. AND I've only just crept above the salary I left the RAF on 11 years ago, so quit bitching about how much we and Civil Servants get paid and how much our pensions are worth. I'm lucky if mine is even gold plated let alone solid gold. If you want to attack someone's pay and pensions, try MPs who really have it sewn up.
Like I said, stop blethering about things you know bu**er all about or I will likely start on how all service personnel get free coal, rent, electricity and gas as all civvies know only too well!!
Sheesh!!!!!!
My RAF pension gave me about 33% of final salary.
The same length of time in Local Government would give me about 25%. AND I've only just crept above the salary I left the RAF on 11 years ago, so quit bitching about how much we and Civil Servants get paid and how much our pensions are worth. I'm lucky if mine is even gold plated let alone solid gold. If you want to attack someone's pay and pensions, try MPs who really have it sewn up.
Like I said, stop blethering about things you know bu**er all about or I will likely start on how all service personnel get free coal, rent, electricity and gas as all civvies know only too well!!
Sheesh!!!!!!
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"Congratulations, you get paid for dishing out free money to worthless scrotes. If you look carefully, you will find that this is the biggest slice, by far, of govt expenditure. This is where we need to cut back - and hey, less money for scrotes, less pointless civil serpent jobs needed - even MORE money saved!"
Could'nt agree more. Benefits are a career choice for many people these days. Some people need them. many, many people dont. Cut them back.
Could'nt agree more. Benefits are a career choice for many people these days. Some people need them. many, many people dont. Cut them back.
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Doctor Crutch
Spot on but if they try to take away my maid and the butler I'll be really miffed. How can one be expected to cope on our salary without free household staff?
Spot on but if they try to take away my maid and the butler I'll be really miffed. How can one be expected to cope on our salary without free household staff?
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I thought the AFPRB ( independant gov body) set the armed forces pay and pensions and all monies came out of the defence budget. Is the plan to cut pensions so they can cut the defense budget or to allow for decent body armour etc.
As an aside my mil pension is taxed so I get to pay tax twice on the money I earned in the mob. ( pension only based on taxable pay not specialist pay)
or to allow for decent body armour etc.As an aside my mil pension is taxed so I get to pay tax twice on the money I earned in the mob. ( pension only based on taxable pay not specialist pay)