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Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II

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Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II

Old 26th Sep 2018, 18:30
  #12341 (permalink)  
 
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OK, and copied. So "Flugbuch" is the logbook ... and the “Leistungsbuch” (power book, according to Google Translate) is what? A bit more elaboration on that aspect would be good, as it doesn't seem to have been a feature in my [brief] Mil flying career... or indeed mentioned here before. It sounds very interesting.

BTW, it's your turn to wash up already. Just saying.
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Old 26th Sep 2018, 19:19
  #12342 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MPN11 View Post
OK, and copied. So "Flugbuch" is the logbook ... and the “Leistungsbuch” (power book, according to Google Translate) is what? A bit more elaboration on that aspect would be good, as it doesn't seem to have been a feature in my [brief] Mil flying career... or indeed mentioned here before. It sounds very interesting.

BTW, it's your turn to wash up already. Just saying.
Haha ok I’ll get my marigolds on! Actually “Leistungsbuch” really means “Performance book”. You see a lot of them for sale for German youth groups, like Hitler Youth etc. Tbh they are more interesting than a logbook for the reasons I described above, some of my Flugbuch are dry in the extreme with just takeoff time, etc listed, whereas others are filled with heaps of detail by the pilot....eg “shotdown by spitfire, parachute jump”....in German obviously So a Luftwaffe Lesitungsbuch is really a mix of F540, intelligence report and logbook,

So I’ve attached two scans of the covers of Günther Kauschkes Flugbuch and Leistungsbuch and one of an entry in his Leistungsbuch. See if you can work out what it is saying......
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Old 26th Sep 2018, 19:44
  #12343 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting concept. Clearly an Official document. I recall my Boat-work logbook from Dartmouth which was vaguely similar ... with piquant comment from Bob McQueen about not using the same colour ink, etc.

Sadly neither my eyes nor linguistics take me any further, but I get the concept. One is a simple record of 'hours', if you will, and the other is 'what happened today.

i used to have to generate this sort of '[email protected]'


Last edited by MPN11; 26th Sep 2018 at 20:02.
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Old 26th Sep 2018, 21:04
  #12344 (permalink)  
 
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Logs by Folks we never knew

Hello SimonK

Welcome to the Bearpit! You said in your other opening thread :

"The challenge is making someone else’s logbook, recorded full of amazing events, into an interesting and truthful read without elaboration"

Well, I agree with you, I tried it myself in these parts last year. It may (or may not be) of interest to you to see my attempt to record a complete stranger's log in this most challenging of threads (posts 11196 -11219, 28 Aug 2017- 5 Sept 2017) J E Lydall Log Book No. 2.

This, after trying to relate some time earlier in this most addictive of threads, what my late Dads' log had told me combined with other well-endorsed written records.
Now I, of course, wasn't present when this WW2 Thingy was going on, so I can only quote the the written records and what my old ex-WReN mother told me. (For those who might remember my previous interventions here, my mum passed away this April, on ANZAK Day.

So, now all 'my' WW2 Vets. Mum (RN) Dad (RAF) Stepdad (RNVR) Uncle (RN) and Godfather (RAF) are gone - I do (and will) remember them all.

Memories are so valuable, but not, sadly, infallible, cries of "revisionism" are heard when first hand stories versus recorded events are disputed, and I guess they always will be.
I will always trust my gut about what to believe, or not, for the rest of my days - it saddens me to think of the rubbish that others promulgated to influence my life when I was young and naive.
So bring it on - your logbooks will never have a more fascinated audience than those hereabouts.
Good Luck
IanBB
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Old 26th Sep 2018, 22:10
  #12345 (permalink)  
 
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Hi Ian,

I found a few of your posts on Lydall and what an amazing history he had.....funny but the logbook I was given that got me started was a very similar background of Blenheims and Beaufighters...funny old world! I’ll try and hi through the rest, fascinating, cheers.
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Old 27th Sep 2018, 12:50
  #12346 (permalink)  
 
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The fields across the top of the "Leistungsbuch" (Book of Achievements or Performance Record Book would be a good translation) are from left to right:

Operational day serial number (you can see these are 1 through x - described as "Feindflug", flight in the face of the enemy, but the first record is actually two flights on the same day)
Evaluation as combat mission (not sure what this means but it seems to be a score - possibly out of 20, which is common in Germany for things like exams. note that it says "Frontflug" - flight over the front line - rather than "Feindflug" so I think this means it involved contact with the enemy)
Aircraft type (not surprisingly, Junkers 88 or 188)
Date
Time out/time back in
Flying time over enemy territory or potentially threatened territory, in minutes
Route
Depth of penetration into enemy territory, km
Contact with enemy fighters or flak
Results of the mission. For example: kill, observation of artillery fire, reconnaissance objective, bomb release (state the drop altitude, type of attack, number of passes over the target, whether or not photographic BDA available, etc)
Authentication: witness or authorising agency (these are all blank, because the previous 5 operational days with 10 flights were authenticated in bulk by the guy who signed across his stamp halfway down the page - a Senior Lieutenant and Command Staff Officer whose signature I can't read, whose stamp says "The accuracy of serials 1 to 5, 5 operational days and 10 combat missions, is hereby confirmed")

As an example, Serial 7 on the 10th of July, 1944 was assessed as a combat mission of grade 13. Yer man launched at 2258 in the Ju188 from Tiraspol for a mission via Kovel, Rovno, and Kasakin, returning to Tiraspol. Tiraspol/Terespol is in present day Moldova, dunno about Kasakin, but the other two way points are in western and central Ukraine. This took him over enemy territory for 3 hours 20 minutes to a depth of 330km. He was engaged by flak of all known calibres and illuminated by searchlights on 34 occasions (!). The aim of the mission was to get battle damage assessment photos (Zielwirkungsbild = "target effects image") of the Kasakin area. I *think* he reports engaging 30 motor vehicles (Kfz. = short for Kraftfahrzeug, motor vehicle) with the aircraft guns (Bordwaffen) but it could be the other way around. He arrived back in Tiraspol at 0300.

The next mission, 10, took a different, shallower route and seems to have been a tactical photo-reconnaissance task: he reports getting photography (LB = either Luftbild, aerial imagery, or Lichtbild, photography) of a 300 vehicle concentration in what I think is a grid square reference, 5135. Analyst comment: that sounds like one of the Soviet armoured divisions of the day, probably best start packing for the next move as they're maximum 130km away.
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Old 27th Sep 2018, 13:50
  #12347 (permalink)  
 
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Chugalug
Have the book in my hand now. Following a brief look, there is no more info on Bertrand than we already know. It is clear that he was at conflict with the British at times, but the decoded information was passed to the British, indeed. Cadix mostly decoded police or SS ciphers, also intercepted U-Boat communications, etc. A number of Poles, who were not in France, were employed on Sigint on the Soviet Union, listening to their communications and breaking their codes. Since late 1941 this was their exclusive job, and unbroken codes were then passed to Bletchley.
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Old 27th Sep 2018, 15:20
  #12348 (permalink)  
 
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Franek, I'm very much obliged for your continued attempt to satisfy my incessant questioning. I seem to remember that the original site near Paris had a landline teleprinter link to the UK, which greatly aided its security (as well as being encrypted of course). Presumably though no such facility was available in Southern France, so the link must have been by radio. Here we have yet another conundrum, that the Wehrmacht's weakness was having to use HF W/T and thus be liable to interception by the enemy. If we could do that then the Abwehr could too (and indeed its many rivals), and they did have some success with breaking certain British codes I think.

So my next poser is, what were they encrypting the messages in back to Britain? The same question of course would apply to the other sources in Poland, USSR, etc. At least at Cadix they were not under direct Nazi occupation, but it was under the Vichy regime, which was not renowned for its pro Allied stance. Did the Abwehr know that Enigma was being intercepted and broken in France? Did Canaris choose to cover that up, given his ambivalent attitude to the German war effort in general and the Nazi crimes in the East in particular. It is suspected that it was he who subverted Hitler's attempts to get Franco's agreement for the Wehrmacht to transit through Spain and thus take Gibraltar, and hence ensure control of the Mediterranean. Were the Spanish cryptologists at Cadix engaged in subverting that as well?

So many questions, so little time....
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Old 27th Sep 2018, 15:46
  #12349 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by steamchicken View Post
The fields across the top of the "Leistungsbuch" (Book of Achievements or Performance Record Book would be a good translation) are from left to right:

Operational day serial number (you can see these are 1 through x - described as "Feindflug", flight in the face of the enemy, but the first record is actually two flights on the same day)
Evaluation as combat mission (not sure what this means but it seems to be a score - possibly out of 20, which is common in Germany for things like exams. note that it says "Frontflug" - flight over the front line - rather than "Feindflug" so I think this means it involved contact with the enemy)
Aircraft type (not surprisingly, Junkers 88 or 188)
Date
Time out/time back in
Flying time over enemy territory or potentially threatened territory, in minutes
Route
Depth of penetration into enemy territory, km
Contact with enemy fighters or flak
Results of the mission. For example: kill, observation of artillery fire, reconnaissance objective, bomb release (state the drop altitude, type of attack, number of passes over the target, whether or not photographic BDA available, etc)
Authentication: witness or authorising agency (these are all blank, because the previous 5 operational days with 10 flights were authenticated in bulk by the guy who signed across his stamp halfway down the page - a Senior Lieutenant and Command Staff Officer whose signature I can't read, whose stamp says "The accuracy of serials 1 to 5, 5 operational days and 10 combat missions, is hereby confirmed")

As an example, Serial 7 on the 10th of July, 1944 was assessed as a combat mission of grade 13. Yer man launched at 2258 in the Ju188 from Tiraspol for a mission via Kovel, Rovno, and Kasakin, returning to Tiraspol. Tiraspol/Terespol is in present day Moldova, dunno about Kasakin, but the other two way points are in western and central Ukraine. This took him over enemy territory for 3 hours 20 minutes to a depth of 330km. He was engaged by flak of all known calibres and illuminated by searchlights on 34 occasions (!). The aim of the mission was to get battle damage assessment photos (Zielwirkungsbild = "target effects image") of the Kasakin area. I *think* he reports engaging 30 motor vehicles (Kfz. = short for Kraftfahrzeug, motor vehicle) with the aircraft guns (Bordwaffen) but it could be the other way around. He arrived back in Tiraspol at 0300.

The next mission, 10, took a different, shallower route and seems to have been a tactical photo-reconnaissance task: he reports getting photography (LB = either Luftbild, aerial imagery, or Lichtbild, photography) of a 300 vehicle concentration in what I think is a grid square reference, 5135. Analyst comment: that sounds like one of the Soviet armoured divisions of the day, probably best start packing for the next move as they're maximum 130km away.
Thats absolutely superb, thank you sir! I do read a little German (nowhere near enough for a half-austrian though ) and I’ve managed to work out a lot, but I find the old fashioned writing extremely hard to decipher, so I really appreciate any help. I’ll put up another shot of Kauschke’s Flugbuch, you will see he’s written a lot in there.....

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Old 27th Sep 2018, 18:20
  #12350 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks very much, steamchicken ... that clarifies a lot. More elaborate than the bare bones of the Log Book.
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Old 27th Sep 2018, 21:52
  #12351 (permalink)  
 
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I second MPN11's thanks, steamchicken. It seems that SimonK has a need of yet more decrypts for his Luftwaffe Flugbuchs and Leistungbuchs. Your further assistance in their translation would be greatly appreciated by all here, I'm sure.

Interesting that the very Nazi Luftwaffe (of all the three Wehrmacht services) should encourage such an old traditional form of German. But then everything was 'Volk' for them in that regard. Presumably it didn't frighten the horses.

I see they had running totals of distance flown as well as hours. A wonder they had anytime left over for the war, but sadly they did. It would be interesting to know what the Book of Achievements was used for. Did it feature in your annual report? Could you get promotion for a rollicking good read? I suspect the somewhat terse ones were a statement in their own right if so...
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Old 27th Sep 2018, 22:52
  #12352 (permalink)  
 
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Chugalug2 & Franek - Re Polish Codebreakers

A long but informative Wiki article here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biuro_Szyfr%C3%B3w

Marian Rejewski and Henryk Zygalski hiked over the Pyrenees with a guide (who robbed them at gunpoint) to the Spanish border, where they were arrested on January 30, 1943.[77] They were incarcerated by the Spaniards for three months before being released, upon Red Cross intervention, on 4 May 1943.[78] They then managed, by a circuitous land–sea–air route, to join the Polish Armed Forces in Britain,[79] Rejewski and Zygalski were inducted into the Polish Army as privates (they would eventually be promoted to lieutenant) and put to work breaking German SS and SD hand ciphers at a Polish signals facility in Boxmoor. Because of their having been in occupied France, the British considered it too risky to invite them to work at Bletchley Park
[from Kozaczuk, Wladyslaw (1984), Enigma: How the German Machine Cipher was Broken, and How it was Read by the Allies in World War Two, edited and translated by Christopher Kasparek, Frederick, Maryland: University Publications of America, ISBN 978-0-89093-547-7 A revised and augmented translation of W kregu enigmy, Warsaw, Ksiazka i Wiedza, 1979, supplemented with appendices by Marian Rejewski]
FWIW Boxmoor is near Hemel Hempstead in Hertfordshire.
WT
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Old 27th Sep 2018, 23:45
  #12353 (permalink)  
 
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Chugalug
The worst problem is, that I have limited knowledge on cryptography and this part of history, despite having a 1920 Polish Bolshevik war code breaker in my family - never knew him, though. Everything I can gather on this is from books and few papers I have, and there are really few books.
I have found some more information, making the situation even more complex. It seems that the British who initially refused help to the Polish code breakers, then wanted them for Bletchley Park, but it turned out the French took the care of them, and did not allow them to go. Hence Bruno and then Cadix centres. As to messages from Cadix, they were send by radio with single use codes send from the UK. Such codes are hard to break but slow in use, contrary to machine codes. The actual role of France during WWII is quite mysterious. It seems that quite a number of high ranked persons of Vichy were pro-Allied, but they were overshadowed by the Free French, who were rather keen to take over any glory.
I do not know anything about German code breaking, but as far as I know, knowledge on German intelligence is quite limited. I do not know if documents were lost or taken over and still classified.
Best wishes
Franek
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Old 28th Sep 2018, 00:43
  #12354 (permalink)  
 
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The field headings are:
  • Purpose of flight - either Feindflug/operational or Überführung/positioning
  • Take-off
    • Place - places are in ex-East Prussia with the exception of Posen/Poznan
    • Date
    • Time
  • Landing
    • Place
    • Time
  • Carried forward
    • Minutes - probably over enemy territory as before
    • Kilometres - both of these have a running total from the previous page and a grand total at the bottom
  • Remarks - this includes the route, the crew, and sometimes some detail
  • A number, possibly the mission evaluation we saw earlier. this also has a carried item at the top.
Mission one was an operation from Thorn (Torun, Poland) on 20th October 44 at 1712, returning to Königsberg at 1945 after 153 mins and 950 km. That's actually 223 minutes flying time, so the number given is presumably for time over enemy territory. The crew included Uffz (Unteroffizier/Sergeants) Göttling and Wallner. I think the route given runs up the original border of East Prussia through Gumbinnen, a 1914 battle site. They were illuminated by searchlights and engaged by light and medium flak. They got one point. The day after next, they positioned back to Thorn. The one after that went as far as Bialystok in Poland or maybe Belarus but they had an engine problem.

Some of the trips are long - the longest is 1900 km and five hours - and the really long ones are marked "2SD2SD" or "2RB250". The last 2SD2SD is the longest trip on the 12th December. The next flight is a positioning flight from Posen to Thorn, but the previous one came back to Thorn. The one after that is operational and marked 2RB250. I think this means these are aircraft identifiers and they fetched 2RB250 from Posen. (Dunno why; Junkers didn't have a plant there. maybe a depot? a maintenance site? or it just happened to end up in Posen.)

You can't see the serial numbers used in the Leistungsbuch but they are linked; the authorising officer's note confirms serials 998 to 1009 and 1021 to 1036, on Christmas Day 1944. Although the stamp says Senior Lieutenant and Special Duty Officer (Oblt. und Offizier zbV), the signature says Captain and Squadron Commander and that's written out in full...I suppose nobody was in a hurry to issue new stationery. By the end of the page yer man had 506 hours of combat (30400 minutes/60) and 32 of those points.
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Old 28th Sep 2018, 05:54
  #12355 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks again mate, fascinating....I think I can help with the numbers you mention. SD250 etc is the bombload, eg SD 250kg bombs and the points are the totals towards medals. My mE109 ace also records the points from the aircraft he shoots down as totals in his logbook. Super job.......
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Old 28th Sep 2018, 07:18
  #12356 (permalink)  
 
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The problem with Vichy France was that it existed purely at the whim of Hitler, who could, and ultimately did, occupy it at a stroke. I'm sure that some there were anti-Nazi, even anti-German, and longed for the liberation of their country. The regime though knew which side its bread was buttered on and refused all attempts to alter that, spectacularly of course with Churchill's demands that the French Fleet join the Royal Navy, or at least sail for a neutral country and hence out of the war. The tragedy that followed hardened attitudes on both sides. De Gaulle might have been in many ways a thorn in the Allied side, but at least he and the Free French were on the Allied side. Vichy never was.

Franek, thanks again for dotting more of the i's. It seems that Cadix is in many ways a known unknown. That always intrigues, and will no doubt offer up more of its secrets with time.
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Old 28th Sep 2018, 08:50
  #12357 (permalink)  
 
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OK, so I think I understand. Fiendflug [operational sortie, underlined in red] is then rated by the authenticating officer to give a score [also in red on the right margin]. The running total then, presumably, counts towards your Eisernes Kreuz which turns up in the post eventually! Wow, what a lot of administration and record-keeping ... didn't they know there was a War going on?
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Old 30th Sep 2018, 08:43
  #12358 (permalink)  
 
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Geriaviator ... Your #12320 ... was that just one MQ, or a semi-detached double? It looks huge!!
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Old 30th Sep 2018, 11:34
  #12359 (permalink)  
 
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MPN11, all these MQs were semis designated W or E ours being 167W. I've just found that Google satellite has been updated and shows more detail. Our former MQs are still standing although the road layouts have been altered and walls built around each pair of houses, maybe they have been knocked into one. The three airmens' blocks pictured above are still standing although the east half of block 1 has been demolished or collapsed. The Officers' Mess has become part of the University of Aden. Much of the camp as I remember it and the hangars have survived too. Quite amazing after 66 years!

Our swimming pool south of the civil terminal a mile across the peninsula to the east has disappeared but the wonderful beach (provided you didn't mind sharing with shark, barracuda, sting rays etc) now forms the Park Layali run by Dubai Tourism. If you're looking for somewhere different this winter ...
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Old 30th Sep 2018, 12:51
  #12360 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks for that. Highly reminiscent of the sets they used in that TV serial about the RMP in Aden a year or two agao.
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