Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
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Danny42c 2328
R.A.F. Flying Training. This list was pasted in Log books at EFTS.
A slightly different list was in SFTS training on Oxfords.
1. Air Experience
1a. Familiarity of Cock Pit layout.
2. Effect of Controls.
3. Taxying
4. Straight and level flying
5. Climbing, Gliding, Stalling
6. Medium turns.
7. Taking of into wind.
8. Powered approach and Landing.
9. Gliding approach and Landing.
10. Spinning.
11. First Solo
12. Sideslipping.
13. Precautionary Landings
14. Low flying.
15. Steep turns
15a Steep gliding turns.
16. Climbing turns.
17. Forced landings.
18. Action in the event of fire.
18a Abandoning an aircraft.
19. Instrument flying.
20. Taking off and landing out of wind.
21. Re-starting the engine in flight.
22. Aerobatics.
23. Navigation.
24. Cross country exercise.
25. C.F.I. Test.
Not all done in this order and all landings until after first solo were gliding landings.
Fredjhh.
A slightly different list was in SFTS training on Oxfords.
1. Air Experience
1a. Familiarity of Cock Pit layout.
2. Effect of Controls.
3. Taxying
4. Straight and level flying
5. Climbing, Gliding, Stalling
6. Medium turns.
7. Taking of into wind.
8. Powered approach and Landing.
9. Gliding approach and Landing.
10. Spinning.
11. First Solo
12. Sideslipping.
13. Precautionary Landings
14. Low flying.
15. Steep turns
15a Steep gliding turns.
16. Climbing turns.
17. Forced landings.
18. Action in the event of fire.
18a Abandoning an aircraft.
19. Instrument flying.
20. Taking off and landing out of wind.
21. Re-starting the engine in flight.
22. Aerobatics.
23. Navigation.
24. Cross country exercise.
25. C.F.I. Test.
Not all done in this order and all landings until after first solo were gliding landings.
Fredjhh.
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fredjhh - thanks,
A very good idea! Why couldn't Uncle Sam think of that in the Arnold Schools? Did they have it in the B.F.T.S.? Of course, we might just have written our lists out for ourselves and stuck it in our logbooks. Stranger things have happened.
Cheers, Danny
A very good idea! Why couldn't Uncle Sam think of that in the Arnold Schools? Did they have it in the B.F.T.S.? Of course, we might just have written our lists out for ourselves and stuck it in our logbooks. Stranger things have happened.
Cheers, Danny
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re 2327 - White Insert
I am not an expert by any means but all the research I have done over the last few months suggests that the white insert in the cap denoted aircrew under training.
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4 SoTT
If contributors are happy, can I ask cliffnemo (as long as he is happy too) to take us back to 4 SoTT as I am trying to get a complete syllabus for the flight engineer technical training course.
I am also keen to establish whether recruits flew any type of aircraft whilst at St Athan
Any help would be much appreciated
I am also keen to establish whether recruits flew any type of aircraft whilst at St Athan
Any help would be much appreciated
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Petet,
From my own research I believe that trainee flight engineers did no flying until they reached OTU and crewed up - ie after they had graduated from St Athan and received their brevets. Cliff mentioned something about this on this thread a year or so agao. I also asked another former flight engineer - Tom Knox of 149 and 199 Sqns on Stirlings - who wrote me a letter last year that confirmed this.
I don't have a full syllabus but from inputs from both Cliff and Tom I cobbled together a short description of flight engineer training on my blog - you can find it here.
I also believe the white flash denoted an airman under training. One of the veteran aircrew I talk to regularly tells me they used to take it off when they wanted to abscond temporarily from their Initial Training School by diving through a hole in the fence - this way they would look like permanent staff rather than recruits while walking innocently down the road to the train station!
Adam
From my own research I believe that trainee flight engineers did no flying until they reached OTU and crewed up - ie after they had graduated from St Athan and received their brevets. Cliff mentioned something about this on this thread a year or so agao. I also asked another former flight engineer - Tom Knox of 149 and 199 Sqns on Stirlings - who wrote me a letter last year that confirmed this.
I don't have a full syllabus but from inputs from both Cliff and Tom I cobbled together a short description of flight engineer training on my blog - you can find it here.
I also believe the white flash denoted an airman under training. One of the veteran aircrew I talk to regularly tells me they used to take it off when they wanted to abscond temporarily from their Initial Training School by diving through a hole in the fence - this way they would look like permanent staff rather than recruits while walking innocently down the road to the train station!
Adam
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Kookabat (RAF St Athan)
Thanks for the link ...... I have e-mailed St Athan to see if they can provide the complete syllabus so that we can use that in our research .... I have got the complete syllabus for ITW if anyone is interested.
In the meantime I will make use of the information that you and Cliff have pieced together as my start point.
I am in the process of trying to establish the types of "flight simulators" that they had at St Athan in 1943 / 1944 .... some say they were just static cockkpits whilst others say they were "prototype" flight simulators with movement.
The Silloth trainer has been mentioned but not sure if one of those had been installed or whether they had developed their own... I will have to keep digging on that one
In the meantime I will make use of the information that you and Cliff have pieced together as my start point.
I am in the process of trying to establish the types of "flight simulators" that they had at St Athan in 1943 / 1944 .... some say they were just static cockkpits whilst others say they were "prototype" flight simulators with movement.
The Silloth trainer has been mentioned but not sure if one of those had been installed or whether they had developed their own... I will have to keep digging on that one
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Danny gets airborne for the very first time.
(He has also changed his typeface, the better to keep track of his humble offerings from now on).
The first ten hours of military flying instruction are critical. This is where the sheep are sorted from the goats. In civil life, a flying club will keep on taking your money till the cows come home, irrespective of whether you're ever going to make a pilot. The Army can't afford to do this, it's working to a timetable.
An average pupil will go solo after eight hours. Nine hours is stretching it. Ten, and your instructor will hand you over to a check pilot, who will take you up and assess your performance, and who may give you a second chance, with a different instructor. But this rarely happens. You're "washed out".
It sounds hard-hearted, and we think of late developers and helping lame dogs over stiles. But, as is pointed out, your dog is still lame after you've got him over the stile, and there are more stiles ahead. Better to chop him now.
Once the decision is taken, the bitterly disappointed pupil was always whizzed away quickly. Back in Canada, most retrained as Navigators or Wireless Operators/Air Gunners, so all was not lost. But never a second chance as a pilot! (Or so we were led to believe at the time; I have subsequently heard that there were second chances - particularly when these were disciplinary cases, and the pupil's flying ability was not in question). Obviously, this information was hidden from us then: otherwise it would offer a sort of "soft option" to the Arnold scheme for those who wished to take it.
The majority of these losses took place in the first ten days. After that they became progressively fewer. One of my room mates disappeared after a month, having absent-mindedly blundered through the circuit at our Relief Landing Ground. "Dangerous tendencies", they said, and he was out. Two others had fallen at the first hurdle, so now I had the room to myself
The Arnold Scheme had a "washout" rate of around 50%, I believe. Whether this was due to the impossibly high standards, or whether simple arithmetic had more to do with it, I have often wondered. My Course at Carlstrom started out some fifty strong. When we went on to Basic School, there were about twenty-five of us left. But we didn't find any "vacant chairs" when we got there. I think Carlstrom simply had to get rid of half of their intakes.
I do not propose to go into a lengthy account of all the stages of elementary flying training. They are much the same everywhere - a few Posts ago there is an excellent list of all the usual lessons, which was issued to pupils at British EFTS. As far as the Arnold (US Army) Scheme was concerned, the major difference was that we had to do without an ASI - did anywhere else do this? (We felt no pain). They exploited the strength of the Stearman to teach "Snap Rolls" and "Snap Vertical Reverses": we would call these "Flick" Rolls, did we do them in the Tiger? (I would have been afraid of tearing the wings off!). They taught a movement called a "Chandelle", which seemed much like a Stall Turn to me, and a "Lazy Eight" (imagine a large (maths) Infinity symbol on the horizon, and follow it round with the nose of your aircraft). It was rather pleasant and relaxing, but I could not see any practical use for it.
However, if I had been one of the real heroes which: "thank the Lord I wasn't, Sir", who went out night after night over the Third Reich (and there are a few in our company, and we should view them all with the admiration, respect and gratitude which is their due.), then the Lazy Eight might have been more comfortable than the "corkscrew", and just as effective, in foiling a Ju88 with Schrage Musik fitted (I'm told the exact meaning is "Ragtime"). And it would have been easier for the Pilot to keep a Course (which we later called a "Heading"), for all he had to do would have been to keep the "bridge of the spectacles" on it, and he would have a happy Navigator into the bargain.
Bob turned me loose after eight and a half hours. Before that we had a little excitement on a dual C&B session at the RLG. A plug blew out. The noise would waken the dead, and the metal propeller was known to fracture from vibration after this particular event. Bob took over and put it down.
My great day came on 19th September, 1941. You never know in advance. I'm doing dual circuits and bumps, taxying back down the edge of the field after each landing. Half way back, Bob tells me to stop, and climbs out with his 'chute. "Off you go - remember what I've told you!" Another instructor is sitting on his chute, with a cigarette. (I suppose he'd just sent his pupil off), and Bob joins him.
This is no time to feel nervous. You have to move the aeroplane. I taxi warily round to take-off point (no runways), make sure nothing's coming in to land on top of me, turn into wind and push the throttle open.
I swing a little, travelling diagonally across the field, and into the air. So far, so good. There is supposed to be a special Providence which looks after first solos, the same one which takes care of drunks and toddlers when they fall down. A first solo never comes to harm, at least not in my experience.
Round I go, mechanically following routine, and come in for quite a decent landing (I've done many worse). I trundle round back to Bob. He waves me off again. This time I keep the take-off straight straight, again I put it down in one piece. This time Bob's on his feet - clearly he thinks he's pushed our luck far enough for one day. He climbs in: "Take me back to Carlstrom".
From that day on, I'll always be a pilot. I'm still a long way from my "wings", but I've been up "alone and unaided"; I'm down alive, and the aircraft can still fly!
Danny42C
Sun's over the YardArm!
The first ten hours of military flying instruction are critical. This is where the sheep are sorted from the goats. In civil life, a flying club will keep on taking your money till the cows come home, irrespective of whether you're ever going to make a pilot. The Army can't afford to do this, it's working to a timetable.
An average pupil will go solo after eight hours. Nine hours is stretching it. Ten, and your instructor will hand you over to a check pilot, who will take you up and assess your performance, and who may give you a second chance, with a different instructor. But this rarely happens. You're "washed out".
It sounds hard-hearted, and we think of late developers and helping lame dogs over stiles. But, as is pointed out, your dog is still lame after you've got him over the stile, and there are more stiles ahead. Better to chop him now.
Once the decision is taken, the bitterly disappointed pupil was always whizzed away quickly. Back in Canada, most retrained as Navigators or Wireless Operators/Air Gunners, so all was not lost. But never a second chance as a pilot! (Or so we were led to believe at the time; I have subsequently heard that there were second chances - particularly when these were disciplinary cases, and the pupil's flying ability was not in question). Obviously, this information was hidden from us then: otherwise it would offer a sort of "soft option" to the Arnold scheme for those who wished to take it.
The majority of these losses took place in the first ten days. After that they became progressively fewer. One of my room mates disappeared after a month, having absent-mindedly blundered through the circuit at our Relief Landing Ground. "Dangerous tendencies", they said, and he was out. Two others had fallen at the first hurdle, so now I had the room to myself
The Arnold Scheme had a "washout" rate of around 50%, I believe. Whether this was due to the impossibly high standards, or whether simple arithmetic had more to do with it, I have often wondered. My Course at Carlstrom started out some fifty strong. When we went on to Basic School, there were about twenty-five of us left. But we didn't find any "vacant chairs" when we got there. I think Carlstrom simply had to get rid of half of their intakes.
I do not propose to go into a lengthy account of all the stages of elementary flying training. They are much the same everywhere - a few Posts ago there is an excellent list of all the usual lessons, which was issued to pupils at British EFTS. As far as the Arnold (US Army) Scheme was concerned, the major difference was that we had to do without an ASI - did anywhere else do this? (We felt no pain). They exploited the strength of the Stearman to teach "Snap Rolls" and "Snap Vertical Reverses": we would call these "Flick" Rolls, did we do them in the Tiger? (I would have been afraid of tearing the wings off!). They taught a movement called a "Chandelle", which seemed much like a Stall Turn to me, and a "Lazy Eight" (imagine a large (maths) Infinity symbol on the horizon, and follow it round with the nose of your aircraft). It was rather pleasant and relaxing, but I could not see any practical use for it.
However, if I had been one of the real heroes which: "thank the Lord I wasn't, Sir", who went out night after night over the Third Reich (and there are a few in our company, and we should view them all with the admiration, respect and gratitude which is their due.), then the Lazy Eight might have been more comfortable than the "corkscrew", and just as effective, in foiling a Ju88 with Schrage Musik fitted (I'm told the exact meaning is "Ragtime"). And it would have been easier for the Pilot to keep a Course (which we later called a "Heading"), for all he had to do would have been to keep the "bridge of the spectacles" on it, and he would have a happy Navigator into the bargain.
Bob turned me loose after eight and a half hours. Before that we had a little excitement on a dual C&B session at the RLG. A plug blew out. The noise would waken the dead, and the metal propeller was known to fracture from vibration after this particular event. Bob took over and put it down.
My great day came on 19th September, 1941. You never know in advance. I'm doing dual circuits and bumps, taxying back down the edge of the field after each landing. Half way back, Bob tells me to stop, and climbs out with his 'chute. "Off you go - remember what I've told you!" Another instructor is sitting on his chute, with a cigarette. (I suppose he'd just sent his pupil off), and Bob joins him.
This is no time to feel nervous. You have to move the aeroplane. I taxi warily round to take-off point (no runways), make sure nothing's coming in to land on top of me, turn into wind and push the throttle open.
I swing a little, travelling diagonally across the field, and into the air. So far, so good. There is supposed to be a special Providence which looks after first solos, the same one which takes care of drunks and toddlers when they fall down. A first solo never comes to harm, at least not in my experience.
Round I go, mechanically following routine, and come in for quite a decent landing (I've done many worse). I trundle round back to Bob. He waves me off again. This time I keep the take-off straight straight, again I put it down in one piece. This time Bob's on his feet - clearly he thinks he's pushed our luck far enough for one day. He climbs in: "Take me back to Carlstrom".
From that day on, I'll always be a pilot. I'm still a long way from my "wings", but I've been up "alone and unaided"; I'm down alive, and the aircraft can still fly!
Danny42C
Sun's over the YardArm!
Last edited by Danny42C; 21st Feb 2012 at 19:12.
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Lovely, Danny - beautifully written too! I think anyone - military or civil - who's taken that great first step solo knows exactly what you're on about.
Petet,
I've seen somewhere a photo of a big group of the front fuselages of various different heavies all lined up in a big hall, ostensibly at St Athan during the war. Something about being procedures trainers? Unfortunately I can't remember where I saw that photo. I'll give you a shout if I come across it again.
Adam
Petet,
I've seen somewhere a photo of a big group of the front fuselages of various different heavies all lined up in a big hall, ostensibly at St Athan during the war. Something about being procedures trainers? Unfortunately I can't remember where I saw that photo. I'll give you a shout if I come across it again.
Adam
Danny, the memory does indeed fade over the years, it is true. Mine certainly does anyway. The magic these days is that the internet allows of the dotting of those forgotten i's and the crossing of the unknown t's. Those who have been at war often relate their own vivid corner of it, but by the same token have, and indeed then had, little idea of how it related to the grander scheme of things. I expect that Cliff and your fellow raconteurs have not only had the satisfaction of recording here their unique historic accounts for posterity, but of having learnt at the same time such forgotten or unknown details for themselves. What you might call a win win scenario!
As to the seemingly few members posting reactions, I can only endorse your plea for more. If you look to the RHS of the thread title in the Military Aircrew Thread Listing you will see two numbers, ie the total number of posts and the total viewings of the thread. The latter of course is several orders in excess of the former, as with many threads. In a way it is rather like publishing a newspaper or magazine article. Yes, you will get some feedback in letters to the editor, but the great majority of readers do just that, ie read! As long as this thread remains well read, as it clearly is, then your posts are obviously valued. I know it is difficult for you guys to accept, but your testimony of those critical and fateful years in this country's history is highly prized and revered. The irony is that the less we tend to stand you all on a pedestal the more forthcoming and less reserved will be your response. I hope that I have the nub of it there Danny, both for you, for your existing correspondents, and for those yet to dip their toes into the water.
The point of my rambling is to encourage everyone to show Danny, et al, how valued are their posts by keeping a varied dialogue going. The subject is rich and varied; flying, cultural differences, girls, music, diet, administrative procedures, money, fear, resolve, fate, technical issues,.... er did I mention girls? In a way the more mundane the question the more revealing the answer. Try it. Chip in. It will all help.
Back to you Danny. Congratulations on your first solo! My next door neighbour sadly passed away last year. Having spoken with him about flying (I was then an active pilot), he revealed that he had trained in Rhodesia as a pilot. All of his course expected to be posted to BC when they had earned their wings, but VE Day came and so they were told to expect to go to the Far East instead. Then VJ Day came and so they were sent home for demob. That was his story anyway. His brother, at his funeral oration, let slip that Stan had crashed his Tiger Moth on his first solo, and that is why he hadn't become a pilot! Whatever the truth of the matter he, like all of you, was playing for very high stakes. It is for those who didn't cheat Lady Luck that your tales need telling. We owe it to their memory, do we not?
As to the seemingly few members posting reactions, I can only endorse your plea for more. If you look to the RHS of the thread title in the Military Aircrew Thread Listing you will see two numbers, ie the total number of posts and the total viewings of the thread. The latter of course is several orders in excess of the former, as with many threads. In a way it is rather like publishing a newspaper or magazine article. Yes, you will get some feedback in letters to the editor, but the great majority of readers do just that, ie read! As long as this thread remains well read, as it clearly is, then your posts are obviously valued. I know it is difficult for you guys to accept, but your testimony of those critical and fateful years in this country's history is highly prized and revered. The irony is that the less we tend to stand you all on a pedestal the more forthcoming and less reserved will be your response. I hope that I have the nub of it there Danny, both for you, for your existing correspondents, and for those yet to dip their toes into the water.
The point of my rambling is to encourage everyone to show Danny, et al, how valued are their posts by keeping a varied dialogue going. The subject is rich and varied; flying, cultural differences, girls, music, diet, administrative procedures, money, fear, resolve, fate, technical issues,.... er did I mention girls? In a way the more mundane the question the more revealing the answer. Try it. Chip in. It will all help.
Back to you Danny. Congratulations on your first solo! My next door neighbour sadly passed away last year. Having spoken with him about flying (I was then an active pilot), he revealed that he had trained in Rhodesia as a pilot. All of his course expected to be posted to BC when they had earned their wings, but VE Day came and so they were told to expect to go to the Far East instead. Then VJ Day came and so they were sent home for demob. That was his story anyway. His brother, at his funeral oration, let slip that Stan had crashed his Tiger Moth on his first solo, and that is why he hadn't become a pilot! Whatever the truth of the matter he, like all of you, was playing for very high stakes. It is for those who didn't cheat Lady Luck that your tales need telling. We owe it to their memory, do we not?
Last edited by Chugalug2; 22nd Feb 2012 at 11:02.
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LINK TRAINER
I am in the process of trying to establish the types of "flight simulators" that they had at St Athan in 1943 / 1944 .... some say they were just static cockkpits whilst others say they were "prototype" flight simulators with movement.
[/IMG]Petet this is a pic of the Link trainer, which was at most training schools and I would imagine we as P.F.Es would also use at St Athans. The hood was closed, after which we were instructed to fly using 'needle ball airspeed to climb descend.change course, maintain height and airspeed, . The Link tilted, in all directions responding to joystick , rudder pedals etc. A chart gave a print out of all movements. Think we would also practice standard beam approach etc on this.
Keep up your requests for info on F/Es you may be lucky and find a wartime straight F/E , as I have done in the past. I have triied to encourage all trades to join in, but it is hard going. Did send dozens of E.Ms to German museums, and Luftwaffe associations asking for contributions, but all to no avail. Will try and answer more of your questions later, but due to medical conditions, plus two teeth extractions yesterday, I'm 'not quite with it.' Are you sure you have accessed all my photobucket albums ? There are many pics of my hand written notes. written whilst on the F/Es course at St Athan.
Last edited by cliffnemo; 22nd Feb 2012 at 16:39.
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We were still using the Link Trainer on the JP course at Linton on Ouse in 1972. I could fly approaches with my hands behind my head, simply by leaning....!
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cliff 2338
Cliff
Thanks for the information; more than happy to keep asking questions but I don't want to hog the thread ... obviously as the FE did not go through the EFTS / SFTS route, my research ends at ITW and then goes through the 4 SoTT route (before converging with the EFTS/SFTS trades at HCU).
I hope that makes sense to the uninitiated!!??
RAF St Athan have got back to me today to say that they are unable to provide a copy of the syllabus for 4 SoTT as very few records exist from that period in their history .... which I thought was sad .... so I am relying on the various forums that I subscribe to to help piece information together .. ... so thanks to you all for your contributions.
I have been provided with this link regarding "flight simulators at RAF St Athan" which you may be interested in:
FLIGHT magazine, 13 July 1951 page 50. (empire airways | aircraft instruments | engine school | 1951 | 1331 | Flight Archive)
Thanks for the information; more than happy to keep asking questions but I don't want to hog the thread ... obviously as the FE did not go through the EFTS / SFTS route, my research ends at ITW and then goes through the 4 SoTT route (before converging with the EFTS/SFTS trades at HCU).
I hope that makes sense to the uninitiated!!??
RAF St Athan have got back to me today to say that they are unable to provide a copy of the syllabus for 4 SoTT as very few records exist from that period in their history .... which I thought was sad .... so I am relying on the various forums that I subscribe to to help piece information together .. ... so thanks to you all for your contributions.
I have been provided with this link regarding "flight simulators at RAF St Athan" which you may be interested in:
FLIGHT magazine, 13 July 1951 page 50. (empire airways | aircraft instruments | engine school | 1951 | 1331 | Flight Archive)
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Chugalug, (#2337)
Thank you for your thoughtful, in-depth analysis of how things are going in this Thread. But I still think that we must have a few more "old hairys" of my generation still alive out there who could chip in and keep me (and others) on the right lines. For we often drift away from the truth, not intentionally, but simply because all memories are fallible, and old men's memories more fallible than most. The more of us we can find, the better.
So I'll soldier on, content that I'm not "wasting my sweetness on the desert air"! Even so, chaps: "this ain't just a private fight - anyone can join in".
Danny,
Thank you for your thoughtful, in-depth analysis of how things are going in this Thread. But I still think that we must have a few more "old hairys" of my generation still alive out there who could chip in and keep me (and others) on the right lines. For we often drift away from the truth, not intentionally, but simply because all memories are fallible, and old men's memories more fallible than most. The more of us we can find, the better.
So I'll soldier on, content that I'm not "wasting my sweetness on the desert air"! Even so, chaps: "this ain't just a private fight - anyone can join in".
Danny,
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Down to serious business at Carlstrom now.
First, thank you, Kookabat (#2336), for the kind words. Much appreciated!
Next, I should have added in my last Post what was probably one of the most important differences in USAAC practice: the "Square Circuit" they flew. Instead of coming round on a continuous curve from the downwind leg onto the runway, we had a straight "Base Leg" on which (I think) we maintained circuit height, then turned a right angle onto "Finals", closed the throttle and glided straight down to the landing. (Instead of our "Finals, three greens", some US wags were reputed to call: "On the base, rollers and draggers in place!")
Of course, this made their circuits much wider, but with the area of an English county to play with, this was no problem. (And this is probably the basis for the "Square Meal" with which their lower-class men were tormented).
To business: My first solo was just a beginning. I still had most of my sixty hours to put in. All flying schools are organised on a similar routine. The students are divided into two groups. One flies in the mornings and does Ground School in the afternoons. Next week they change over. The flying was all new to us, of course, but Ground School showed how valuable our six weeks in Newquay had been. Not to put too fine a point on it, we knew nearly as much about Navigation as our Instructors, and I can still remember a lecturer on Instruments tying his fingers in knots in an attempt to demonstrate the Three Axes of Precession of a Gyroscope.
In fairness to our hosts, their wide open spaces and reliable weather (at least down South) made classical navigation much less important to them than it was to us in the UK. Moreover, their commercial inter-city flights all navigated exclusively on "Radio Ranges" along all the major Airways. The Radio Range was an early application of the Lorenz Beam, and their commercial pilots had become so used to flying "on the beam" that they'd almost given up navigating. All was fine until Pearl Harbor, when Germany declared war on the US, and U-boats off their East coast started using the Range signals for their navigation. To stop this, they switched off the Range stations in the Eastern states. This practically grounded Civil aviation there, until the pilots dusted off their maps, and went back to the old, tried and tested methods of finding a way from A to B.
We had examinations, of course, and here we met the Multiple Choice Question for the first time. All this idea does is to make life easier for the marker. Needless to say, we cribbed shamelessly. This horrified our teachers. American cadets were supposed to be governed by an "Honor System", and not even think of doing anything so base. We made it clear that we were incorrigible, and that it was up to them to catch us. Which they often did, and not a few demerits were earned that way. It was this "Honor System" which required you to "inform" on your comrades - I need hardly add that that was a non-starter as far as we were concerned. I must say that they did introduce an attempt of humour in one of their Met exams: one of the choices for "What is the Tropopause?" was "The Pause which Refreshes" (ad for Coca Cola!)
"Coke" cost 5c a bottle. It ruled the market, its two principal competitors (Pepsicola and the unwisely named Royal Crown cola - try saying "R.C.Cola" quickly) couldn't make a dent in its sales, in spite of selling double the quantity for the same price. But the Coke machines would take only nickels, and soon they mopped up all the nickels on the camp. Plaintive cries of "Anyone got two nickels for a dime?" could be heard all over. The story was that "Coke" then contained cocaine, and was habit-forming, and there may have been some truth in it. Every day, the "Coke" salesman rolled up to collect the cash and refill the machines. He would be inundated with offers to change dollars (and even five-dollar bills) into nickels. He never had to carry away much small change. This reminds me of a good story. I think I may have got it from the "Readers Digest", so it must (?) be true. (And I hope the kind Moderator will let it through, though it is way off Thread).
A big US airbase opened near a small mid-western town just after the War. The usual frictions developed: rowdy airmen in town in the evenings, Service families driving up the cost of rented accommodation, parking congestion in the Main Street, and so on. The townsfolk's complaints were making the Colonel's life a misery. He decided to do something about it. Two aircraft flew down South, returning heavily laden.
Next payday, the surprised airmen got paid in dollar coins instead of notes (the silver dollar was legal tender for any amount in that State). They clanked off with pockets bulging. Husbands met trouble when they got home.
This was Friday, and they went to town to do the weekly shopping. Soon all was chaos, tills in stores, cafes and petrol stations were jammed full in the first hour. The banks were unprepared for the sudden rush of payings-in, and this caused further delays which effectively brought all commerce to a halt by mid morning. It was late afternoon before things got back to normal.
The townsfolk got the message ("see where your trade comes from!"). The Colonel was left in peace. Having the Forces on your doorstep is good for business. Put up with a few inconveniences!
Danny42C
Stand by your beds!
Next, I should have added in my last Post what was probably one of the most important differences in USAAC practice: the "Square Circuit" they flew. Instead of coming round on a continuous curve from the downwind leg onto the runway, we had a straight "Base Leg" on which (I think) we maintained circuit height, then turned a right angle onto "Finals", closed the throttle and glided straight down to the landing. (Instead of our "Finals, three greens", some US wags were reputed to call: "On the base, rollers and draggers in place!")
Of course, this made their circuits much wider, but with the area of an English county to play with, this was no problem. (And this is probably the basis for the "Square Meal" with which their lower-class men were tormented).
To business: My first solo was just a beginning. I still had most of my sixty hours to put in. All flying schools are organised on a similar routine. The students are divided into two groups. One flies in the mornings and does Ground School in the afternoons. Next week they change over. The flying was all new to us, of course, but Ground School showed how valuable our six weeks in Newquay had been. Not to put too fine a point on it, we knew nearly as much about Navigation as our Instructors, and I can still remember a lecturer on Instruments tying his fingers in knots in an attempt to demonstrate the Three Axes of Precession of a Gyroscope.
In fairness to our hosts, their wide open spaces and reliable weather (at least down South) made classical navigation much less important to them than it was to us in the UK. Moreover, their commercial inter-city flights all navigated exclusively on "Radio Ranges" along all the major Airways. The Radio Range was an early application of the Lorenz Beam, and their commercial pilots had become so used to flying "on the beam" that they'd almost given up navigating. All was fine until Pearl Harbor, when Germany declared war on the US, and U-boats off their East coast started using the Range signals for their navigation. To stop this, they switched off the Range stations in the Eastern states. This practically grounded Civil aviation there, until the pilots dusted off their maps, and went back to the old, tried and tested methods of finding a way from A to B.
We had examinations, of course, and here we met the Multiple Choice Question for the first time. All this idea does is to make life easier for the marker. Needless to say, we cribbed shamelessly. This horrified our teachers. American cadets were supposed to be governed by an "Honor System", and not even think of doing anything so base. We made it clear that we were incorrigible, and that it was up to them to catch us. Which they often did, and not a few demerits were earned that way. It was this "Honor System" which required you to "inform" on your comrades - I need hardly add that that was a non-starter as far as we were concerned. I must say that they did introduce an attempt of humour in one of their Met exams: one of the choices for "What is the Tropopause?" was "The Pause which Refreshes" (ad for Coca Cola!)
"Coke" cost 5c a bottle. It ruled the market, its two principal competitors (Pepsicola and the unwisely named Royal Crown cola - try saying "R.C.Cola" quickly) couldn't make a dent in its sales, in spite of selling double the quantity for the same price. But the Coke machines would take only nickels, and soon they mopped up all the nickels on the camp. Plaintive cries of "Anyone got two nickels for a dime?" could be heard all over. The story was that "Coke" then contained cocaine, and was habit-forming, and there may have been some truth in it. Every day, the "Coke" salesman rolled up to collect the cash and refill the machines. He would be inundated with offers to change dollars (and even five-dollar bills) into nickels. He never had to carry away much small change. This reminds me of a good story. I think I may have got it from the "Readers Digest", so it must (?) be true. (And I hope the kind Moderator will let it through, though it is way off Thread).
A big US airbase opened near a small mid-western town just after the War. The usual frictions developed: rowdy airmen in town in the evenings, Service families driving up the cost of rented accommodation, parking congestion in the Main Street, and so on. The townsfolk's complaints were making the Colonel's life a misery. He decided to do something about it. Two aircraft flew down South, returning heavily laden.
Next payday, the surprised airmen got paid in dollar coins instead of notes (the silver dollar was legal tender for any amount in that State). They clanked off with pockets bulging. Husbands met trouble when they got home.
This was Friday, and they went to town to do the weekly shopping. Soon all was chaos, tills in stores, cafes and petrol stations were jammed full in the first hour. The banks were unprepared for the sudden rush of payings-in, and this caused further delays which effectively brought all commerce to a halt by mid morning. It was late afternoon before things got back to normal.
The townsfolk got the message ("see where your trade comes from!"). The Colonel was left in peace. Having the Forces on your doorstep is good for business. Put up with a few inconveniences!
Danny42C
Stand by your beds!
Last edited by Danny42C; 23rd Feb 2012 at 19:48.
Danny, Sir!, thank you so much .... I suspect that you have no inkling of how much enjoyment your posts are bringing to so many, but it is so - please bear in mind that we are quiet because we are sitting 'with baited breath' awaiting 'The Next Thrilling Instalment'. As to Danny's requests for others to join in, may I echo these, and here is a lead if you are shy - 'every dog has four thoughts, one for each paw - food, food, sex, and food'. Several contributors have mentioned their enjoyment of transatlantic grub when on the Arnold Scheme, but not many around today have any inkling of how tough things were in hungry wartime Britain, when a breakfast egg was a prized reward for having come back in one piece. So, what were rations like it those bitter times? They were certainly very important in the overall picture, but (apart from carrots!) not much mentioned. All ranks and trades ... here is your cue ...
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Hi Danny,
I concur with Dogle's sentiments. Have been reading your last post this morning in Krakow & the previous ones in Frankfurt & Manchester. Looking forward to the reading the next instalments in Liverpool & Amsterdam. Keep it comng Please!
I concur with Dogle's sentiments. Have been reading your last post this morning in Krakow & the previous ones in Frankfurt & Manchester. Looking forward to the reading the next instalments in Liverpool & Amsterdam. Keep it comng Please!
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The Plot Thickens.
Thanks a lot, Dogle (#2343), and eaw (#2344). for the kind words. Keeps my spirits up no end!
Further to my Post #2335, (P117), I've been re-reading earlier Posts in this Thread (they read better every time). I came to andy1999's Post #460 (P23). Some way in there is a pic of what apppears to be a medal. I racked my brains for the dregs of my Latin and came up with "The sea divides us, the heavens join us" - only to find that someone had done it for me a few Posts further on and I needn't have bothered! In any case, it's very apt indeed.
But the meat in the sandwich is the bare table of statistics which follows This shows that from Class 42A (which must have been the July 41 entry - these would graduate in Jan 42) to Class 42D (which would have been the last entry before Pearl Harbor), only 60% graduated. From 42E onwards to the end of the record, the figure rose to 98% ! The answer is clear: only the Arnold schools must have had British students prior to Pearl Harbor; unless the Arnold leopard changed his spots, the BFTS must have taken over all, or nearly all our people from then on.
It looks as if my suspicion that the USAAC schools simply took on almost twice as many people as their Basic and Advanced schools could handle (and had to discard the rest) was well founded. In that sense, Primary School was more of a competitive examination than a fair test of flying skill, and a lot of potentially good material must have been wasted. None of this reflects badly on the Americans, we were only too grateful for any help, and as neutrals they were under no obligation to lift a finger on our behalf, and if they chose to do so, it was their right to organise it any way they wished.
Danny42C
Further to my Post #2335, (P117), I've been re-reading earlier Posts in this Thread (they read better every time). I came to andy1999's Post #460 (P23). Some way in there is a pic of what apppears to be a medal. I racked my brains for the dregs of my Latin and came up with "The sea divides us, the heavens join us" - only to find that someone had done it for me a few Posts further on and I needn't have bothered! In any case, it's very apt indeed.
But the meat in the sandwich is the bare table of statistics which follows This shows that from Class 42A (which must have been the July 41 entry - these would graduate in Jan 42) to Class 42D (which would have been the last entry before Pearl Harbor), only 60% graduated. From 42E onwards to the end of the record, the figure rose to 98% ! The answer is clear: only the Arnold schools must have had British students prior to Pearl Harbor; unless the Arnold leopard changed his spots, the BFTS must have taken over all, or nearly all our people from then on.
It looks as if my suspicion that the USAAC schools simply took on almost twice as many people as their Basic and Advanced schools could handle (and had to discard the rest) was well founded. In that sense, Primary School was more of a competitive examination than a fair test of flying skill, and a lot of potentially good material must have been wasted. None of this reflects badly on the Americans, we were only too grateful for any help, and as neutrals they were under no obligation to lift a finger on our behalf, and if they chose to do so, it was their right to organise it any way they wished.
Danny42C
Last edited by Danny42C; 25th Feb 2012 at 17:08.
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Carlstrom instils some Good Habits in Danny.
First, a few words to Dogle. What was our grub like? I can only answer in a general way:
a) any grub was better (at least in quantity, though not always in quality) than the poor civilians were reduced to back home. As for that, start off any octogenarian in your (or a neighbour's) family, and you might be in for quite a long haul.
b) I was essentially an ex-civvie from May 41 to the end. First, in Canada and the States, there was far more of it than we could eat. I could say what we were fed on, but I would really be saying what I think they eat now, and not really remembering at all - except that there were gallons of iced tea in Florida, and that was delicious. Steaks and ice cream, I suppose.
c) As for the wartime Jewel in the Crown, anything goes provided you curry it first, eat rice and chapattis with it, and ask no questions. I am told that Rattus rattus eats quite well, but can't say personally (I hope). Bully Beef? - I'm not sure (the Hindu people tended to be a bit touchy about that). And the never-to-be-forgotten "Soya Links", a sort of pretend-meat sausage with a faintly fishy taste. Dehydrated spuds, of course, plus anything else you can put in a tin. Eggs and the odd scrawny chicken. Plenty of fish, if you're near a coast; the squadron (all ranks) once feasted royally on an 80lb shark. The cooks made quite tasty fishcakes with the powdered spuds; the Mess found some Worcester sauce to go with it.
*****************
Way off track, get back on the rails.
One thing Carlstrom taught me stayed with me all my flying life. They were obsessive about the care of parachutes, never to treat them roughly, always to carry them properly and to fold them the right way when you put them down. This was backed by a ferocious sanction. An offender was ordered to carry his parachute (a heavy and awkward load) right round Carlstrom field. This was almost a mile each side, so he had a four-mile walk under the Florida sun. With flying in progress, he dare not short-cut, but had to keep to the fences all the way. Needless to say, parachutes were treated with great respect there, which is as it should be.
Autumn in Florida is a pleasant season, but hurricanes were not uncommon then, although not as frequent or as severe as they seem to be now. We had one, its route was fairly well plotted, it was coming our way. There was a scramble to get our aircraft away to Tampa (70 miles north and reckoned to be safe). At Carlstrom, our Stearmans lived out in the open in a long Flight Line, as we had no hangars. (Now, of course, I know that that was complete nonsense, there must have been three hangars staring me in the face. Why didn't they stow the aircraft in these?)
Three possible explanations:
a) Why isn't your car in your garage? Because that's full of your junk!
b) The whole lot might blow away, hangars and all.
c) It was less hassle to fly the lot away than have to manhandle them all in.
Naturally, this ferry job fell to our instructors, and there was a sudden rush to get away in mid afternoon. Perhaps Tampa were threatening to close. One of them, taxying fast down the line to take-off point, overdid it and took off involuntarily, floating a few feet in the air before dropping back! I never saw that happen again.
The Stearmans flew off, we battened down the hatches and waited for the storm. I'll always remember that sunset. It was glorious, the sky full of every colour imaginable, it needed a Turner to do it justice. Then the storm came, it wasn't too bad. Our posh quarters stood up to it all right, we lost some recently planted palm trees, but that was about all. The aircraft stayed safe and sound in Tampa overnight and came back next day
Flying in an open cockpit is pretty well a thing of the past, but in warm weather it's by far the best way. You can see all round, and with the wind whistling in your ears, and the sun beating down on your helmet, it's easy to imagine yourself chasing the "Red Baron" over the 1916 lines in France. I'd think the Stearman's performance was much the same as "Biggles's" Sopwith "Camel", and we enjoyed tailchases (mock combat) as a change from our training routines.
I can still recall the smell of warm grass as we were coming in to land, and watching out for the correct moment to check your glide. This was when you suddenly see blades of grass in what was just a green blur a moment before. Much later, flying off a Wiltshire field on a pitch-black night, the same idea worked fine. Gooseneck flares, mere points of light, turn into recognisable little flames. Time to pull up the nose and hold off. It's remarkable how little light you need to land at night. In occupied France, Lysanders could routinely drop off and pick up agents in mooonlight plus a few torches on the ground.
Now I feel the restraining hand of Wittgenstein (?) on my shoulder:
"Whereof you know nothing, thereof should you be silent".
But fools rush in........
Today's airline pilots must only dream of such pleasures. On their sealed, pressurised Flight Decks they can see only a limited patch of sky and horizon. They might as well be in a flight simulator, as these are now so sophisticated that you can hardly tell whether you're in the air or not (or so I am told).
(Ancient joke: "What are we going to do about old So-and-so? He's wizard in the air, but hopeless on the simulator!)
Now I'm in trouble! Goodnight, all.
Danny42C
Orderly Officer! Any complaints?
a) any grub was better (at least in quantity, though not always in quality) than the poor civilians were reduced to back home. As for that, start off any octogenarian in your (or a neighbour's) family, and you might be in for quite a long haul.
b) I was essentially an ex-civvie from May 41 to the end. First, in Canada and the States, there was far more of it than we could eat. I could say what we were fed on, but I would really be saying what I think they eat now, and not really remembering at all - except that there were gallons of iced tea in Florida, and that was delicious. Steaks and ice cream, I suppose.
c) As for the wartime Jewel in the Crown, anything goes provided you curry it first, eat rice and chapattis with it, and ask no questions. I am told that Rattus rattus eats quite well, but can't say personally (I hope). Bully Beef? - I'm not sure (the Hindu people tended to be a bit touchy about that). And the never-to-be-forgotten "Soya Links", a sort of pretend-meat sausage with a faintly fishy taste. Dehydrated spuds, of course, plus anything else you can put in a tin. Eggs and the odd scrawny chicken. Plenty of fish, if you're near a coast; the squadron (all ranks) once feasted royally on an 80lb shark. The cooks made quite tasty fishcakes with the powdered spuds; the Mess found some Worcester sauce to go with it.
*****************
Way off track, get back on the rails.
One thing Carlstrom taught me stayed with me all my flying life. They were obsessive about the care of parachutes, never to treat them roughly, always to carry them properly and to fold them the right way when you put them down. This was backed by a ferocious sanction. An offender was ordered to carry his parachute (a heavy and awkward load) right round Carlstrom field. This was almost a mile each side, so he had a four-mile walk under the Florida sun. With flying in progress, he dare not short-cut, but had to keep to the fences all the way. Needless to say, parachutes were treated with great respect there, which is as it should be.
Autumn in Florida is a pleasant season, but hurricanes were not uncommon then, although not as frequent or as severe as they seem to be now. We had one, its route was fairly well plotted, it was coming our way. There was a scramble to get our aircraft away to Tampa (70 miles north and reckoned to be safe). At Carlstrom, our Stearmans lived out in the open in a long Flight Line, as we had no hangars. (Now, of course, I know that that was complete nonsense, there must have been three hangars staring me in the face. Why didn't they stow the aircraft in these?)
Three possible explanations:
a) Why isn't your car in your garage? Because that's full of your junk!
b) The whole lot might blow away, hangars and all.
c) It was less hassle to fly the lot away than have to manhandle them all in.
Naturally, this ferry job fell to our instructors, and there was a sudden rush to get away in mid afternoon. Perhaps Tampa were threatening to close. One of them, taxying fast down the line to take-off point, overdid it and took off involuntarily, floating a few feet in the air before dropping back! I never saw that happen again.
The Stearmans flew off, we battened down the hatches and waited for the storm. I'll always remember that sunset. It was glorious, the sky full of every colour imaginable, it needed a Turner to do it justice. Then the storm came, it wasn't too bad. Our posh quarters stood up to it all right, we lost some recently planted palm trees, but that was about all. The aircraft stayed safe and sound in Tampa overnight and came back next day
Flying in an open cockpit is pretty well a thing of the past, but in warm weather it's by far the best way. You can see all round, and with the wind whistling in your ears, and the sun beating down on your helmet, it's easy to imagine yourself chasing the "Red Baron" over the 1916 lines in France. I'd think the Stearman's performance was much the same as "Biggles's" Sopwith "Camel", and we enjoyed tailchases (mock combat) as a change from our training routines.
I can still recall the smell of warm grass as we were coming in to land, and watching out for the correct moment to check your glide. This was when you suddenly see blades of grass in what was just a green blur a moment before. Much later, flying off a Wiltshire field on a pitch-black night, the same idea worked fine. Gooseneck flares, mere points of light, turn into recognisable little flames. Time to pull up the nose and hold off. It's remarkable how little light you need to land at night. In occupied France, Lysanders could routinely drop off and pick up agents in mooonlight plus a few torches on the ground.
Now I feel the restraining hand of Wittgenstein (?) on my shoulder:
"Whereof you know nothing, thereof should you be silent".
But fools rush in........
Today's airline pilots must only dream of such pleasures. On their sealed, pressurised Flight Decks they can see only a limited patch of sky and horizon. They might as well be in a flight simulator, as these are now so sophisticated that you can hardly tell whether you're in the air or not (or so I am told).
(Ancient joke: "What are we going to do about old So-and-so? He's wizard in the air, but hopeless on the simulator!)
Now I'm in trouble! Goodnight, all.
Danny42C
Orderly Officer! Any complaints?
Last edited by Danny42C; 25th Feb 2012 at 15:32.
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We have a copy of the duties and responsibilities of the flight engineer as set out by the Air Ministry in 1942 for the four engined heavy bombers and flying boats. They read:
In essence, a personal view of a typical flight from the time of reaching the aircraft to the end of the flight would be brilliant.
- to operate certain controls at the engineer’s station and watch appropriate gauges as indicated in the relevant Air Publications;
- in certain types of aircraft, to act as pilot’s assistant to the extent of being able to fly straight and level and on a course;
- to advise the captain of the aircraft as to the functioning of the engines and the fuel, oil and cooling systems, both before and during flight;
- to ensure effective liaison between the captain of the aircraft and the maintenance staff, by communicating to the latter such technical notes regarding the performance and maintenance of the aircraft in flight as may be required;
- to carry out practicable emergency repairs during flight;
- to act as stand-by Gunner.
In essence, a personal view of a typical flight from the time of reaching the aircraft to the end of the flight would be brilliant.
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Sackcloth and Ashes Time
Cliff, old chap,
You've let me rabbet on about Arnold/B.F.T.S all this time (my Posts #2335 [P117)] and #2345 [P118] ), when you knew all about it from way back! I now sit on the penitents' bench as one of the dreaded sciolists whom our Moderator warns us about (in red) at the bottom of the page. I now must recant, retract and absolutely abjure everything I've written!
But it's a long time ago (three years), so I'll forgive you! Look back to two Posts, #460 from andy1999 (P23), and your #499 (P25). It seems that the Arnold and the B.F.T.S. Schemes started together in summer 1941.
From what Mr Mike Igglesden, of 6 BFTS Assn, says: the BFTSs started off openly as RAF units, with an RAF C.O. and NCOs for discipline. Civilian clothes had only to worn off camp. Presumably they wore "uniform" (US light summer uniform with RAF forage caps and white flashes) on camp. So what about US neutrality, then? Out of the window, that's what! So far, it makes some sense. Why should Roosevelt worry about Hitler? He had enough on his plate in Russia. It was not till Japan evened the odds at Pearl Harbor, and Roosevelt had his own plateful to worry about, that he felt safe in declaring war on the USA.
So why were we, in the Arnold Schools, hiding away hugger-mugger as mock-civilians at the same time? Search me! But that wasn't the end of the story.
Again referring to the BFTS Assn. Intake/Graduates Schedule: How do we account for a 6o% pass rate in BFTS over 42A-D, and 98% from 42E onward after Pearl Harbor? What happened to the BFTSs on 8th December 1941?
It's all beyond me. My own stupid fault for trying to be a historian! No more!
Cheers, Danny
You've let me rabbet on about Arnold/B.F.T.S all this time (my Posts #2335 [P117)] and #2345 [P118] ), when you knew all about it from way back! I now sit on the penitents' bench as one of the dreaded sciolists whom our Moderator warns us about (in red) at the bottom of the page. I now must recant, retract and absolutely abjure everything I've written!
But it's a long time ago (three years), so I'll forgive you! Look back to two Posts, #460 from andy1999 (P23), and your #499 (P25). It seems that the Arnold and the B.F.T.S. Schemes started together in summer 1941.
From what Mr Mike Igglesden, of 6 BFTS Assn, says: the BFTSs started off openly as RAF units, with an RAF C.O. and NCOs for discipline. Civilian clothes had only to worn off camp. Presumably they wore "uniform" (US light summer uniform with RAF forage caps and white flashes) on camp. So what about US neutrality, then? Out of the window, that's what! So far, it makes some sense. Why should Roosevelt worry about Hitler? He had enough on his plate in Russia. It was not till Japan evened the odds at Pearl Harbor, and Roosevelt had his own plateful to worry about, that he felt safe in declaring war on the USA.
So why were we, in the Arnold Schools, hiding away hugger-mugger as mock-civilians at the same time? Search me! But that wasn't the end of the story.
Again referring to the BFTS Assn. Intake/Graduates Schedule: How do we account for a 6o% pass rate in BFTS over 42A-D, and 98% from 42E onward after Pearl Harbor? What happened to the BFTSs on 8th December 1941?
It's all beyond me. My own stupid fault for trying to be a historian! No more!
Cheers, Danny
Last edited by Danny42C; 25th Feb 2012 at 21:41.
