Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
MPN11:-
Indeed, and I too! Let me be clear (as I obviously failed to be first time round) in saying that we are the poorer, I meant because they are now gone from the Royal Air Force (although I may even be wrong there!), not from the world!
The highest rank they obtained, at least as far as I am aware, was Wing Commander. If I am right that was yet another injustice piled upon all the others that they so philosophically bore, given the excellence of some of their leaders . The reason of course was that of security, as it was reasoned that pressure could be brought to bear on them by threatening loved ones still living in Poland under communist rule. No doubt that was true, but it was yet another example of how the Poles had to suffer under occupation, be it from the East or the West (or both, simultaneously).
I would like to think that some of those fine old gentlemen still make their annual visit to the Polish memorial by the A40 at Northolt.
The highest rank they obtained, at least as far as I am aware, was Wing Commander. If I am right that was yet another injustice piled upon all the others that they so philosophically bore, given the excellence of some of their leaders . The reason of course was that of security, as it was reasoned that pressure could be brought to bear on them by threatening loved ones still living in Poland under communist rule. No doubt that was true, but it was yet another example of how the Poles had to suffer under occupation, be it from the East or the West (or both, simultaneously).
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Sadly true, Chugalug, but in many cases their names have lingered on with their sons and daughters in the RAF (as any read of the Air Force List will confirm). And I would not be surprised if the next generation is starting to come along any time now.
Who can forget seeing Sqn Ldr Zurakowski and his "Cartwheel" with a Meteor ?
There is a lot about it on:
Aviation History and Nostalgia - Zurakowski Cartwheel - (Post: henry crun #1 19 July 2006)
Danny.
Who can forget seeing Sqn Ldr Zurakowski and his "Cartwheel" with a Meteor ?
There is a lot about it on:
Aviation History and Nostalgia - Zurakowski Cartwheel - (Post: henry crun #1 19 July 2006)
Danny.
The highest rank they obtained, at least as far as I am aware, was Wing Commander. - Chugalug
That is rather sad for many reasons in view of their outstanding war service, and provides an interesting, and perhaps equally sad, contrast with the post war career of Rear Admiral Józef Bartosik CB DSC, as will readily be seen by reading between the lines in both
Rear-Admiral Joe Bartosik - Telegraph
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3zef_Bartosik
The reference in the latter to Commander (later Captain) Mike Henry in which the then Captain Bartosik is quoted as saying 'that he considered Henry unsuitable for an important submarine appointment "understood to be impending"' is of special interest since the appointment concerned was as Commanding Officer of HMS RESOLUTION (Port Crew), the first Royal Navy Polaris submarine, and subsequently as Captain of the 10th Submarine Squadron, consisting of the four SSBNs.
Jack
That is rather sad for many reasons in view of their outstanding war service, and provides an interesting, and perhaps equally sad, contrast with the post war career of Rear Admiral Józef Bartosik CB DSC, as will readily be seen by reading between the lines in both
Rear-Admiral Joe Bartosik - Telegraph
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3zef_Bartosik
The reference in the latter to Commander (later Captain) Mike Henry in which the then Captain Bartosik is quoted as saying 'that he considered Henry unsuitable for an important submarine appointment "understood to be impending"' is of special interest since the appointment concerned was as Commanding Officer of HMS RESOLUTION (Port Crew), the first Royal Navy Polaris submarine, and subsequently as Captain of the 10th Submarine Squadron, consisting of the four SSBNs.
Jack
Thanks for those interesting links, UJ. It seems that Bartosik was very much the exception, both for good and for bad! I guess that generalisations about the Poles, or any other group of people for that matter, are best avoided as every one is an individual. There is no doubt though that as a group they very much enhanced the Royal Air Force, both in their finest hour and thereafter.
Danny good point about sons and daughters, and their sons and daughters in turn. The RAF especially should be proud of its Polish constituents and hopefully will always contain them in that way.
Danny good point about sons and daughters, and their sons and daughters in turn. The RAF especially should be proud of its Polish constituents and hopefully will always contain them in that way.
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Mapal & the Poles.
Just to join a couple things together after the cessation of all hostilities and the withdrawal of operational R.A.F. units. The accommodation units on the site became homes for displaced persons mainly Polish and Czech.
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Good call, Pom Pax ... a small corner of the post WW2 scenario that is easily forgotten [until you reminded me!]
It was he indeed that was the highest ranking Polish RAF Senior Officer that I was aware of, Oxenos. Like you I knew him at Oakington. Unlike you I did not know that he then rose to Group Captain. Thanks for the info. Please disregard my previous claim then.
I am posting in the hope that someone can point me in the right direction for research into RAF WW2 history. I have recently discovered some family photographs and documents am trying to find out where/when they were taken.
I have spent some time on internet searches and have a photo of what I now know to be a Martin Baltimore bomber registration AG714 with the crew of 4 standing next to the wing. I can make out a letter 'X' next to the roundel but that is all.
Another photo shows a Baltimore in flight taken from another aircraft and on the back is the date 30/06/42 and the words 'Near Cairo'.
A postcard from 1941 seems to indicate that the pilot attended RAF Hooton Park in that year.
Thank you.
I have spent some time on internet searches and have a photo of what I now know to be a Martin Baltimore bomber registration AG714 with the crew of 4 standing next to the wing. I can make out a letter 'X' next to the roundel but that is all.
Another photo shows a Baltimore in flight taken from another aircraft and on the back is the date 30/06/42 and the words 'Near Cairo'.
A postcard from 1941 seems to indicate that the pilot attended RAF Hooton Park in that year.
Thank you.
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Same again,
Wiki lists the following RAF Sqdns as using the "Baltimore" in WWII:
"Royal Air Force
1st Middle East TRoyal Air Force
1st Middle East Training Squadron
No. 13 Squadron RAF (Baltimore IV – V) (Italy: 1944)
No. 52 Squadron RAF (Baltimore IIIa – V) (Tunisia, Italy: February 1942 – February 1943)
No. 55 Squadron RAF (Baltimore I – V) (Libya, Tunisia, Italy: 1942–1944)
No. 69 Squadron RAF (Baltimore I – IV) (Mediterranean: 1942–1944)
No. 162 Squadron RAF (Baltimore III) (Libya: 1943–1944)
No. 203 Squadron RAF (Baltimore I, II, IIIa, V) (North Africa: 1942–1943)
No. 223 Squadron RAF (Baltimore I - V) (North Africa, Italy: April 1941 – 12 August 1944)
No. 249 Squadron RAF (Baltimore IV - V) (South-East Europe: October 1945 - April 1946)
No. 500 Squadron RAF (Baltimore IV - V) (Italy: 1944–1945)
No. 680 Squadron RAF (Baltimore III, V) (Italy: 1944)raining Squadron
No. 13 Squadron RAF (Baltimore IV – V) (Italy: 1944)
No. 52 Squadron RAF (Baltimore IIIa – V) (Tunisia, Italy: February 1942 – February 1943)
No. 55 Squadron RAF (Baltimore I – V) (Libya, Tunisia, Italy: 1942–1944)
No. 69 Squadron RAF (Baltimore I – IV) (Mediterranean: 1942–1944)
No. 162 Squadron RAF (Baltimore III) (Libya: 1943–1944)
No. 203 Squadron RAF (Baltimore I, II, IIIa, V) (North Africa: 1942–1943)
No. 223 Squadron RAF (Baltimore I - V) (North Africa, Italy: April 1941 – 12 August 1944)
No. 249 Squadron RAF (Baltimore IV - V) (South-East Europe: October 1945 - April 1946)
No. 500 Squadron RAF (Baltimore IV - V) (Italy: 1944–1945)
No. 680 Squadron RAF (Baltimore III, V) (Italy: 1944)"
Your best chance is that someone who served in N. Africa on one of these is among our vast readership and will come in to help.
Alternatively, the RAF Historical Branch may be able to connect the airframe no. to a unit.
Danny42C.
EDIT[: The only connection with Hooton Park seems to be that aircraft built in the US and Canada (inc Bostons and therefore probably Baltimores), and then shipped CKD to Liverpool, were assembled there in WWII.
"....the pilot attended RAF Hooton Park....." (to collect an aircraft for his unit ?)
D.
Wiki lists the following RAF Sqdns as using the "Baltimore" in WWII:
"Royal Air Force
1st Middle East TRoyal Air Force
1st Middle East Training Squadron
No. 13 Squadron RAF (Baltimore IV – V) (Italy: 1944)
No. 52 Squadron RAF (Baltimore IIIa – V) (Tunisia, Italy: February 1942 – February 1943)
No. 55 Squadron RAF (Baltimore I – V) (Libya, Tunisia, Italy: 1942–1944)
No. 69 Squadron RAF (Baltimore I – IV) (Mediterranean: 1942–1944)
No. 162 Squadron RAF (Baltimore III) (Libya: 1943–1944)
No. 203 Squadron RAF (Baltimore I, II, IIIa, V) (North Africa: 1942–1943)
No. 223 Squadron RAF (Baltimore I - V) (North Africa, Italy: April 1941 – 12 August 1944)
No. 249 Squadron RAF (Baltimore IV - V) (South-East Europe: October 1945 - April 1946)
No. 500 Squadron RAF (Baltimore IV - V) (Italy: 1944–1945)
No. 680 Squadron RAF (Baltimore III, V) (Italy: 1944)raining Squadron
No. 13 Squadron RAF (Baltimore IV – V) (Italy: 1944)
No. 52 Squadron RAF (Baltimore IIIa – V) (Tunisia, Italy: February 1942 – February 1943)
No. 55 Squadron RAF (Baltimore I – V) (Libya, Tunisia, Italy: 1942–1944)
No. 69 Squadron RAF (Baltimore I – IV) (Mediterranean: 1942–1944)
No. 162 Squadron RAF (Baltimore III) (Libya: 1943–1944)
No. 203 Squadron RAF (Baltimore I, II, IIIa, V) (North Africa: 1942–1943)
No. 223 Squadron RAF (Baltimore I - V) (North Africa, Italy: April 1941 – 12 August 1944)
No. 249 Squadron RAF (Baltimore IV - V) (South-East Europe: October 1945 - April 1946)
No. 500 Squadron RAF (Baltimore IV - V) (Italy: 1944–1945)
No. 680 Squadron RAF (Baltimore III, V) (Italy: 1944)"
Your best chance is that someone who served in N. Africa on one of these is among our vast readership and will come in to help.
Alternatively, the RAF Historical Branch may be able to connect the airframe no. to a unit.
Danny42C.
EDIT[: The only connection with Hooton Park seems to be that aircraft built in the US and Canada (inc Bostons and therefore probably Baltimores), and then shipped CKD to Liverpool, were assembled there in WWII.
"....the pilot attended RAF Hooton Park....." (to collect an aircraft for his unit ?)
D.
Last edited by Danny42C; 18th Oct 2015 at 23:41. Reason: Addn.
Thank you very much Danny42C.
I had seen that list on Wiki and have tried to identify which Squadron that the Baltimore was flying with. The only feature seems to be the letter X to the left of the roundel when viewed from the starboard side of the aircraft. I understand that each Squadron had it's own identification letters?
If I am able to identify the Squadron it would make the process of indentifying the crew easier.
I appreciate your help and will try to attach the photo.
I had seen that list on Wiki and have tried to identify which Squadron that the Baltimore was flying with. The only feature seems to be the letter X to the left of the roundel when viewed from the starboard side of the aircraft. I understand that each Squadron had it's own identification letters?
If I am able to identify the Squadron it would make the process of indentifying the crew easier.
I appreciate your help and will try to attach the photo.
Same again, here is wiki's list of RAF Squadron Codes (as distinct from individual aircraft ones that completed the three letter code, usually painted either side of the roundel):-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...squadron_codes
X on its own doesn't seem to figure for any of the squadrons in Danny's list, being mainly allocated to FTS's or AFTS's (could it be one of the latter?).
However if it were followed by another letter, cropped out of your picture, then the field is wide open and you may take your pick. Unfortunately none of them seem to then relate to a Squadron in Danny's list in 1942. If the picture's date is different to that, and there might be a second letter after the X, then it is a matter of matching a code to Danny's list.
If the X is clearly on its own, my guess is that it was aircraft X-Ray of a yet unidentified squadron...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...squadron_codes
X on its own doesn't seem to figure for any of the squadrons in Danny's list, being mainly allocated to FTS's or AFTS's (could it be one of the latter?).
However if it were followed by another letter, cropped out of your picture, then the field is wide open and you may take your pick. Unfortunately none of them seem to then relate to a Squadron in Danny's list in 1942. If the picture's date is different to that, and there might be a second letter after the X, then it is a matter of matching a code to Danny's list.
If the X is clearly on its own, my guess is that it was aircraft X-Ray of a yet unidentified squadron...
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The impression I have is that a fair number of sqns in the Med region didn't bother with sqn codes ... perhaps they shared aircraft, or attrition and/or lack of paint made it too difficult?
Certainly "X" would suggest one of a large number of aircraft shared, rather than a 24 a/c sqn.
Certainly "X" would suggest one of a large number of aircraft shared, rather than a 24 a/c sqn.
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Voices from the Past.
HEADS UP.
For those interested, Channel 19 ("Yesterday") is repeating "Into the Wind" 0130-0300 BST on 21.10.15.
And on casually re-reading some of the old Posts on this Thread, came across p.150 #2981 (Reader 123) and clicked on:
<http://www.rquirk.com/176Sqdn/Sircar...0Hurricane.pdf>
which amplifies my tale of Old Calcutta in '42 - '43. I would go along with it. There is also a lot of detail about the early days of AI radar to interest the specialist.
Danny42C
For those interested, Channel 19 ("Yesterday") is repeating "Into the Wind" 0130-0300 BST on 21.10.15.
And on casually re-reading some of the old Posts on this Thread, came across p.150 #2981 (Reader 123) and clicked on:
<http://www.rquirk.com/176Sqdn/Sircar...0Hurricane.pdf>
which amplifies my tale of Old Calcutta in '42 - '43. I would go along with it. There is also a lot of detail about the early days of AI radar to interest the specialist.
Danny42C
Polish Pilots in the RAF
Further to Ian BB's (and others) comments. Reminds me of this story passed on to me by a friend.
Further to Ian BB's (and others) comments. Reminds me of this story passed on to me by a friend.
A BBC TV journalist is interviewing an elderly former Polish fighter pilot.
Interviewer: So Mr Stanczewski, I understand that in 1943 you shot down five German aircraft in a single engagement. Could you tell us what happened?
Polish Fighter Pilot: Well we were flying at 20,000 feet when we spotted five Fokkers flying along below us. So we dived down and I aimed at one of the Fokkers and fired a burst from my machine guns right into him and he exploded. Then I saw that one of the Fokkers was on my tail, so I pulled round in a loop and got behind him, and fired and he went down on fire. I looked around and saw two Fokkers attacking my squadron leader, so slipped in behind them, and fired, and that was another Fokker going down in flames. The other Fokker tried to get away from me, but I got right up behind him, and blasted him with my machine guns and turned over and exploded. There was only one of the Fokkers left now, and he was trying to get away, but I flew up behind him, and shot — bang, bang, bang — and he blew up too!
BBC Interviewer: I should point out for the benefit of the viewers at home, that the Fokker was a type of German aircraft used in the war.
Polish Fighter Pilot: No, no, no - these fokkers were Messerschmitts!
Interviewer: So Mr Stanczewski, I understand that in 1943 you shot down five German aircraft in a single engagement. Could you tell us what happened?
Polish Fighter Pilot: Well we were flying at 20,000 feet when we spotted five Fokkers flying along below us. So we dived down and I aimed at one of the Fokkers and fired a burst from my machine guns right into him and he exploded. Then I saw that one of the Fokkers was on my tail, so I pulled round in a loop and got behind him, and fired and he went down on fire. I looked around and saw two Fokkers attacking my squadron leader, so slipped in behind them, and fired, and that was another Fokker going down in flames. The other Fokker tried to get away from me, but I got right up behind him, and blasted him with my machine guns and turned over and exploded. There was only one of the Fokkers left now, and he was trying to get away, but I flew up behind him, and shot — bang, bang, bang — and he blew up too!
BBC Interviewer: I should point out for the benefit of the viewers at home, that the Fokker was a type of German aircraft used in the war.
Polish Fighter Pilot: No, no, no - these fokkers were Messerschmitts!
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Hmmm ... my on-line Sky guide (Channel 534, PBS America) says "The story of the creation of the United Nations, the World Bank and the Marshall Plan, all of which led to the making of modern Europe following the end of World War II."
Perhaps it's embedded in there somewhere? That's what comes up when I use your search term, anyway!
Perhaps it's embedded in there somewhere? That's what comes up when I use your search term, anyway!
Oops!
Sorry Mr MPN11 - I foolishly took The Sunday Times Culture Mag. TV schedules as my source for tonight's show - like you I see that the on-line Sky guide says otherwise. I have been misled - my apologies to all.
Ian BB
Ian BB
Ian BB, many thanks for the heads up.
A brief Google for the program contents brings up a different description for me. See Below :
Published on Sep 22, 2015
Premieres 9pm, Thursday 22 October on Sky 534 & Virgin Media 276
The aftermath of World War II saw European cities scarred by bombs and people who endured the onslaught struggling to cope in the ruins. Veteran journalist Walter Cronkite examines America’s grand Marshall Plan to reconstruct the infrastructure and help create a new post-War world.
As early as 1941, during the height of the Blitz, plans were drawn up for re-building London as “a new and modern metropolis”, but in the event the reconstruction took far longer than imagined and many of the more progressive ideas were scrapped. The original plans survive, however, offering a fascinating insight into how London might have looked. Cronkite traces the close bond forged between the US and Britain and how it changed, not always for the better, in the Cold War era as America expanded as a trading nation and Britain, weakened by war, struggled to found a new society its ally often felt was dangerously ‘socialist’. There are more personal alliances, too, with GIs returning home with ‘war brides’, and Cronkite recalls his own involvement, sitting within feet of the Nazi leaders at the Nuremberg trials: “I wanted to spit on them”. In a more reflective moment, Cronkite visits memorials to the war dead. Moved by a wall engraved with the names of thousands of missing soldiers, Cronkite muses that there must be a better way to settle our differences than by killing each other.
And here is a link to a preview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D99Wl508KkI
Hope this helps,
Regards,
Fionn
A brief Google for the program contents brings up a different description for me. See Below :
Published on Sep 22, 2015
Premieres 9pm, Thursday 22 October on Sky 534 & Virgin Media 276
The aftermath of World War II saw European cities scarred by bombs and people who endured the onslaught struggling to cope in the ruins. Veteran journalist Walter Cronkite examines America’s grand Marshall Plan to reconstruct the infrastructure and help create a new post-War world.
As early as 1941, during the height of the Blitz, plans were drawn up for re-building London as “a new and modern metropolis”, but in the event the reconstruction took far longer than imagined and many of the more progressive ideas were scrapped. The original plans survive, however, offering a fascinating insight into how London might have looked. Cronkite traces the close bond forged between the US and Britain and how it changed, not always for the better, in the Cold War era as America expanded as a trading nation and Britain, weakened by war, struggled to found a new society its ally often felt was dangerously ‘socialist’. There are more personal alliances, too, with GIs returning home with ‘war brides’, and Cronkite recalls his own involvement, sitting within feet of the Nazi leaders at the Nuremberg trials: “I wanted to spit on them”. In a more reflective moment, Cronkite visits memorials to the war dead. Moved by a wall engraved with the names of thousands of missing soldiers, Cronkite muses that there must be a better way to settle our differences than by killing each other.
And here is a link to a preview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D99Wl508KkI
Hope this helps,
Regards,
Fionn
Last edited by Fionn101; 22nd Oct 2015 at 12:55. Reason: insert url for preview