Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
Danny, quite agree about the urgent need for a ventral gun position, seemingly not possible in the Lanc because of the H2S radome taking up the room, though provision was made in the early Halifax ISTR. The mid-upper was famously removed for weight reasons by 617 Sqn of course. The only turret that really justified its weight (and moment arm!) was of course the rear turret, in which I have had the privilege of a 20 min flight (in PA474, over Newcastle for its 900th anniversary). The loneliness of that crew position was enhanced by my having no intercom headset to wear. Once those turret doors closed behind you were alone, to confront whatever came out of the dark (more NE murk in my case as two Spitfires suddenly slid in on either wingtip for the flypast). I would not have been a safe pair of eyes to stand watch in that vital defensive position!
I read somewhere that there was constant lobbying to remove one or more of the turrets throughout the night bombing campaign, always for it to be quashed (by Harris?) because of the supposed effects on morale. The weight saved could have been traded for ceiling, range, and/or bomb load of course.
I read somewhere that there was constant lobbying to remove one or more of the turrets throughout the night bombing campaign, always for it to be quashed (by Harris?) because of the supposed effects on morale. The weight saved could have been traded for ceiling, range, and/or bomb load of course.
Last edited by Chugalug2; 4th Oct 2015 at 22:05.
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Air Bombers
Sirs,
Firstly congratulations on an amazing thread, I've read it from start to finish, mainly on night shifts when I was supposed to be working in the lofty heights of what used to be Adastral House, now long since gutted & refurbished.
How emotive to think some of the contributors of this great thread have occupied the same space, albeit during significantly different circumstances.
Your superb recollections have also prompted my to do some research into my Great Uncle who was a Bomb Aimer on Lancasters.
Sadly, like many he's not around to share his memories but since you're discussing air bombers I'll post the details of his training and his time in Canada, I hope it's of some interest and please feel free to delete if it isn't.
5/6/41 Enlisted RAF Volunteer Reserves
22/9/41 no 1. Aircrew Reception Centre, St John’s Wood.
11/10/41 Initial Training Wings: No 4 Bexhill on Sea and Paignton
18/3/42 Pool ???
13/5/42 31 RAF Personnel Depot Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada. ATTS
20/2/43 33 Air Navigation School, Hamilton (Mount Hope), Ontario
3/4/43 31 py/3 IPY ???
5/6/43 No. 7 Personnel Reception Centre, Harrogate, later Market Harborough
22/6/43 1(0) Operational Training Unit Abingdon, Night Bomber Training
24/7/43 29 Operational Training Unit, North Luffenham, Night Bomber Training
10/11/43 1654 Heavy Bomber Conversion Unit RAF Wigsley
25/11/43 Attached to 51 Base at RAF Scampton
5/12/43 Posted to 57 Base /1654 CU
13/1/44 Posted to 51 Base/5 LFS (Lancaster Finishing School)
5/2/44 Posted to 44 Sqdn.
14/4/44 Posted to 617 Sqdn.
Would his log book have more details of his time in Canada if I were able to track it down?
Firstly congratulations on an amazing thread, I've read it from start to finish, mainly on night shifts when I was supposed to be working in the lofty heights of what used to be Adastral House, now long since gutted & refurbished.
How emotive to think some of the contributors of this great thread have occupied the same space, albeit during significantly different circumstances.
Your superb recollections have also prompted my to do some research into my Great Uncle who was a Bomb Aimer on Lancasters.
Sadly, like many he's not around to share his memories but since you're discussing air bombers I'll post the details of his training and his time in Canada, I hope it's of some interest and please feel free to delete if it isn't.
5/6/41 Enlisted RAF Volunteer Reserves
22/9/41 no 1. Aircrew Reception Centre, St John’s Wood.
11/10/41 Initial Training Wings: No 4 Bexhill on Sea and Paignton
18/3/42 Pool ???
13/5/42 31 RAF Personnel Depot Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada. ATTS
20/2/43 33 Air Navigation School, Hamilton (Mount Hope), Ontario
3/4/43 31 py/3 IPY ???
5/6/43 No. 7 Personnel Reception Centre, Harrogate, later Market Harborough
22/6/43 1(0) Operational Training Unit Abingdon, Night Bomber Training
24/7/43 29 Operational Training Unit, North Luffenham, Night Bomber Training
10/11/43 1654 Heavy Bomber Conversion Unit RAF Wigsley
25/11/43 Attached to 51 Base at RAF Scampton
5/12/43 Posted to 57 Base /1654 CU
13/1/44 Posted to 51 Base/5 LFS (Lancaster Finishing School)
5/2/44 Posted to 44 Sqdn.
14/4/44 Posted to 617 Sqdn.
Would his log book have more details of his time in Canada if I were able to track it down?
DJFish1,
Welcome sir to a thread that knows no bounds, I'm sure Danny, our incumbent "senior man" will be along shortly to welcome you aboard. Your post has hit the bullseye in my opinion and any further information on your great uncle's experiences through training and operations, certainly log book extracts, would fit very nicely with the intent of this thread. As a coincidence, my father in law finished his war service as Groundcrew on 617 Squadron, and may have come in to contact with your great uncle. Post all you have, there are many here who will read, assimilate, and perhaps even open new lines of information to you.
Smudge
Welcome sir to a thread that knows no bounds, I'm sure Danny, our incumbent "senior man" will be along shortly to welcome you aboard. Your post has hit the bullseye in my opinion and any further information on your great uncle's experiences through training and operations, certainly log book extracts, would fit very nicely with the intent of this thread. As a coincidence, my father in law finished his war service as Groundcrew on 617 Squadron, and may have come in to contact with your great uncle. Post all you have, there are many here who will read, assimilate, and perhaps even open new lines of information to you.
Smudge
Hello DJ Fish 1, a very warm welcome to the thread. I can only reiterate smudge's comments that anything relating to your Great Uncle's record will be of great interest and perhaps some more light may be shone on it here.
You have already uncovered a wealth of detail from his service, and the sequence of units before his operational squadrons are many and interesting. I would suggest (though Danny will be the arbiter) that 31PY might refer to Moncton, which was 31 PD (Personnel Depot) through which it seems all RAF aircrew trainees in Canada passed before and after training. In 1945 it became RCAF No 1 Y Depot. It might be that the Y prefix preceded the RCAF takeover. There is talk here of a Y Depot at Moncton in 1943:-
No.31 Personnel Depot, Moncton - and it's successors
You have already uncovered a wealth of detail from his service, and the sequence of units before his operational squadrons are many and interesting. I would suggest (though Danny will be the arbiter) that 31PY might refer to Moncton, which was 31 PD (Personnel Depot) through which it seems all RAF aircrew trainees in Canada passed before and after training. In 1945 it became RCAF No 1 Y Depot. It might be that the Y prefix preceded the RCAF takeover. There is talk here of a Y Depot at Moncton in 1943:-
No.31 Personnel Depot, Moncton - and it's successors
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DHfan (your #7460),
".....The Mk 1 Halifax had two .303s in a nose turret. It was deleted in later variants as part of the search for improved performance." I would think they'd have to put a block of concrete up front (à la "the blue circle fighter") to balance the aircraft !
".....According to wiki, a Lancaster Bomb Aimer just had to stand up to man the front turret...". That would make good sense - but if he were further aft around the Nav position, it would take longer - and when you want a gunner, you want him quick !
I remember reading somewhere that three of the engines had individual hydraulic pumps, each supplying one turret, so that loss of one engine would not render all turrets inoperable. But I can't find (after a cursory Google search) anything to back it up. Anybody know whether this was true ?
Chugalug (your #7461),
".....A small number of early Lancasters were also equipped with a ventral turret on the bottom of the fuselage fitted with two .303s, but this turret was phased out from 1942....." (Wiki: "Rose Turret"). But this was well before the introduction of "Schräge Musik" in mid-'43. And then, as you say, the H2S "bagged" the space.
".....I would not have been a safe pair of eyes to stand watch in that vital defensive position!... " But a very lucky pair to be standing there then ! I would have given my eye teeth (if I had any) for your 20 minutes ! (or, better yet, to be poling along one of the Spits !) Very recently someone put a link on here (?) to a short YouTube taken from a camera behind the right shoulder of a W/Cdr in a BBMF Hurricane as he is turning to tuck-in on the left wing of the leading Spitfire. You get a good view of the RH side of the Sperry Panel; the Climb/Descent is all over the place as it is very bumpy, but the pilot has the "bank" needle stuck nicely at 6 o'clock all the time.
".....I read somewhere that there was constant lobbying to remove one or more of the turrets throughout the night bombing campaign, always for it to be quashed (by Harris?) because of the supposed effects on morale. The weight saved could have been traded for ceiling, range, and/or bomb load of course.....".
I would've thought (never having been there !) that it wouldn't worry them too much (at night) if the front turret had gone, but then you'd have the CoG problem as before.
Cheers both, Danny.
".....The Mk 1 Halifax had two .303s in a nose turret. It was deleted in later variants as part of the search for improved performance." I would think they'd have to put a block of concrete up front (à la "the blue circle fighter") to balance the aircraft !
".....According to wiki, a Lancaster Bomb Aimer just had to stand up to man the front turret...". That would make good sense - but if he were further aft around the Nav position, it would take longer - and when you want a gunner, you want him quick !
I remember reading somewhere that three of the engines had individual hydraulic pumps, each supplying one turret, so that loss of one engine would not render all turrets inoperable. But I can't find (after a cursory Google search) anything to back it up. Anybody know whether this was true ?
Chugalug (your #7461),
".....A small number of early Lancasters were also equipped with a ventral turret on the bottom of the fuselage fitted with two .303s, but this turret was phased out from 1942....." (Wiki: "Rose Turret"). But this was well before the introduction of "Schräge Musik" in mid-'43. And then, as you say, the H2S "bagged" the space.
".....I would not have been a safe pair of eyes to stand watch in that vital defensive position!... " But a very lucky pair to be standing there then ! I would have given my eye teeth (if I had any) for your 20 minutes ! (or, better yet, to be poling along one of the Spits !) Very recently someone put a link on here (?) to a short YouTube taken from a camera behind the right shoulder of a W/Cdr in a BBMF Hurricane as he is turning to tuck-in on the left wing of the leading Spitfire. You get a good view of the RH side of the Sperry Panel; the Climb/Descent is all over the place as it is very bumpy, but the pilot has the "bank" needle stuck nicely at 6 o'clock all the time.
".....I read somewhere that there was constant lobbying to remove one or more of the turrets throughout the night bombing campaign, always for it to be quashed (by Harris?) because of the supposed effects on morale. The weight saved could have been traded for ceiling, range, and/or bomb load of course.....".
I would've thought (never having been there !) that it wouldn't worry them too much (at night) if the front turret had gone, but then you'd have the CoG problem as before.
Cheers both, Danny.
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DJFish1,
Thank you for the kind words about "our" Thread. Reading it "from start to finish" must rate with reading "War and Peace" right through ! (did anyone ever finish it ?) Smudge and Chugalug have put it admirably: a hearty welcome into the good fellowship of this, the best of Threads on all PPRuNe (at least, we think so).
I liken it to an old Crewroom in Cyberspace, housed in a leaky and rattly wartime Nissen hut, shabby and untidy, where all, from Groupies to erks may cluster round the old coke stove in broken-down armchairs, and natter about everything under the sun. Where are all free to question, correct, argue about and learn from each other, always provided no harsh word be spoken between friends.
As its title implies, it was set up by Cliff Leach (RIP) some seven years ago for those of us who qualified as "Drivers, Airframe" in the war, to tell our stories (for no two war stories are alike), then the rest of aircrew, then all those without whom (as PPRuNe puts it), "nothing would get off the ground", then just about anyone with an interest in aviation..
The "old hairies" being incorrigible, our wise Moderators sat back and let them ramble on (as the old tend to do), and suddenly found they had the most popular and well-loved Thread of all on their hands. Sadly the old generation, like Cliff, are nearly all "RIP" (for to be "qualified", we must be 92+ now), and only three of us are left. But then came their families with tales which had been passed down to them, their logbooks, diaries and notes.
Of course we're not going to delete your Great Uncle's record of service !! The more, the merrier ! Get his logbook(s) if you can. It may have details of his training flights, but do not be disappointed if you get a string of "Ex.16", "Ex.32"s and the like. But the meat in the sandwich is from 22.6.43. to 5.2.44. ("51").
The last entry is "14.4.44." ("to 617"). Then nothing ? - was that the End ?
Again welcome, Danny.
Thank you for the kind words about "our" Thread. Reading it "from start to finish" must rate with reading "War and Peace" right through ! (did anyone ever finish it ?) Smudge and Chugalug have put it admirably: a hearty welcome into the good fellowship of this, the best of Threads on all PPRuNe (at least, we think so).
I liken it to an old Crewroom in Cyberspace, housed in a leaky and rattly wartime Nissen hut, shabby and untidy, where all, from Groupies to erks may cluster round the old coke stove in broken-down armchairs, and natter about everything under the sun. Where are all free to question, correct, argue about and learn from each other, always provided no harsh word be spoken between friends.
As its title implies, it was set up by Cliff Leach (RIP) some seven years ago for those of us who qualified as "Drivers, Airframe" in the war, to tell our stories (for no two war stories are alike), then the rest of aircrew, then all those without whom (as PPRuNe puts it), "nothing would get off the ground", then just about anyone with an interest in aviation..
The "old hairies" being incorrigible, our wise Moderators sat back and let them ramble on (as the old tend to do), and suddenly found they had the most popular and well-loved Thread of all on their hands. Sadly the old generation, like Cliff, are nearly all "RIP" (for to be "qualified", we must be 92+ now), and only three of us are left. But then came their families with tales which had been passed down to them, their logbooks, diaries and notes.
Of course we're not going to delete your Great Uncle's record of service !! The more, the merrier ! Get his logbook(s) if you can. It may have details of his training flights, but do not be disappointed if you get a string of "Ex.16", "Ex.32"s and the like. But the meat in the sandwich is from 22.6.43. to 5.2.44. ("51").
The last entry is "14.4.44." ("to 617"). Then nothing ? - was that the End ?
Again welcome, Danny.
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Dad did feel the front turret on his Lanc was of no value for night ops- in 19 ops he never fired the guns in anger, nor even saw anything to fire at! As pointed out, his duties as Bomb Aimer only lasted for about 15 minutes preceding the actual dropping of bombs. During the trip, he assisted the Nav in observations and navigation, or was a general dogsbody when something was needed throughout the aircraft ie oxygen problems.
That being said, I did read once about how a front gunner did actually shoot down a night fighter. The enemy aircraft was unaware of the Lanc, and cruised past just a hundred yards or so parallel to the Lanc. The mid upper became aware of it as it was abeam them, and notified the front gunner. When the fighter got in a position slightly ahead of the Lanc, the front gunner shot it down! There may have been other instances, but I am sure they were certainly few and far between.
That being said, I did read once about how a front gunner did actually shoot down a night fighter. The enemy aircraft was unaware of the Lanc, and cruised past just a hundred yards or so parallel to the Lanc. The mid upper became aware of it as it was abeam them, and notified the front gunner. When the fighter got in a position slightly ahead of the Lanc, the front gunner shot it down! There may have been other instances, but I am sure they were certainly few and far between.
Gun Turrets were indeed a complex and arcane technology, the manned ones eventually giving way to barbettes, operated from a central fire control position, to eventually disappear entirely in the West with the removal of the tail-mounted 20mm M61 Vulcan Cannon from the B-52H in the early '90s. As Danny points out, a major disadvantage was their weight and the moment from the CoG, especially given that their most effective location was in the extreme tail of the a/c.
For anoraks and historians alike, a fascinating thread on the Lancaster's turrets is here:-
Lancaster Turret
For anoraks and historians alike, a fascinating thread on the Lancaster's turrets is here:-
Lancaster Turret
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DHfan,
I wrote:
"....I remember reading somewhere that three of the engines had individual hydraulic pumps, each supplying one turret, so that loss of one engine would not render all turrets inoperable. But I can't find (after a cursory Google search) anything to back it up. Anybody know whether this was true ?...."
A bit more digging has turned up:
<British Power-Operated Gun Turrets - Page 2 - Axis History Forum
forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=20042&start=15>
"....The electro-hydraulic power unit was mounted behind the gunner, giving a maximum rotation speed of 35 degrees/sec...."
So the turret movement had its own power supply (and presumably its own hydraulic reservoir), and was not dependent on the main engine-driven hydraulic system.
Which wraps it up nicely ! Danny.
I wrote:
"....I remember reading somewhere that three of the engines had individual hydraulic pumps, each supplying one turret, so that loss of one engine would not render all turrets inoperable. But I can't find (after a cursory Google search) anything to back it up. Anybody know whether this was true ?...."
A bit more digging has turned up:
<British Power-Operated Gun Turrets - Page 2 - Axis History Forum
forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=20042&start=15>
"....The electro-hydraulic power unit was mounted behind the gunner, giving a maximum rotation speed of 35 degrees/sec...."
So the turret movement had its own power supply (and presumably its own hydraulic reservoir), and was not dependent on the main engine-driven hydraulic system.
Which wraps it up nicely ! Danny.
Danny, I think that picture shows the UK's brief dalliance with the barbette, as compared to a manned turret. Both mid upper and ventral were controlled from the glazed position shown at the rear of the a/c. Brief, as:-
They both packed twin 20mm Hispano Cannon which would have made someone's eyes water! Perhaps their use by Tiger Force would have been compromised by the weight, and hence range, implications for operations in the Far East.
The prototype barbettes were completed and despatched to RAE Farnborough in early 1944, where they were fitted to Lancaster (LL780G). Some trials took place, but it was thought that hostilities would probably be ended by the time the system was ready for operational use, and the project was terminated in autumn 1944.
Last edited by Chugalug2; 5th Oct 2015 at 17:37.
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jeffb (your #7467),
There might have been cases where the fighter, closing rapidly on its prey on a firing pass, would overshoot the Lanc after firing and appear in point-blank range of the front guns, having ignored the advice (on a poster put out by SEAAC):
"After attacking, go DOWN when you break -
Or the Jap rear gunner will make no mistake !"
And in the case in which Flt.Lt. (later Wg.Cdr.) Nicolson won his VC (I've told the story here long ago), it is surmised that the same thing happened.
I think you're right, the Bomb Aimer was a "dogsbody" for most of the trip.
Danny.
There might have been cases where the fighter, closing rapidly on its prey on a firing pass, would overshoot the Lanc after firing and appear in point-blank range of the front guns, having ignored the advice (on a poster put out by SEAAC):
"After attacking, go DOWN when you break -
Or the Jap rear gunner will make no mistake !"
And in the case in which Flt.Lt. (later Wg.Cdr.) Nicolson won his VC (I've told the story here long ago), it is surmised that the same thing happened.
I think you're right, the Bomb Aimer was a "dogsbody" for most of the trip.
Danny.
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The copy of the log book I have of a chap who qualified as an Air Observer in 1941 Has entries for air navigation, bombing and air gunnery courses. A total of 18 hours flying was all that is recorded to the bombing and gunnery phase.
His log book records his trips with Bomber Command as Navigator until he becomes OC 10 Sqn when they are logged as Air Bomber. When he goes out to India after 10 converted to the Dakota he logs his trips as Co Pilot.
His log book records his trips with Bomber Command as Navigator until he becomes OC 10 Sqn when they are logged as Air Bomber. When he goes out to India after 10 converted to the Dakota he logs his trips as Co Pilot.
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Gentlemen,
Thank you for the warm welcome and your interest in my research into my Great Uncle.
As suggested the first date in question is probably a return to Moncton before returning to the UK.
The other date I cant make head 'nor tail of is the entry toward the bottom of the page at ?.6.44, possibly some kind of special leave as his crew flew without him on 8.6.44, I suppose that's the joy of handwritten notes.
The next step is to send everything I've got off to my Aunt in Scotland and my Great Uncles in Australia to see if I can track down his log book.
Thanks to the wealth of information available online about 617 Sqdn. I've been able to read about some of the missions he flew, sadly his last flight was returning from the 11.09.44 raid on the Tirpitz.
Due to the distances involved, Yagodnik in Russia was used as a staging post and the aircraft crashed in Norway during their return flight to the UK on 17.09.44
The crew are buried in Nesbyen churchyard in Norway, here are a couple of links relating to Nesbyen.
https://tihlde.org/~ktsorens/flyvrak/syningen.html
http://wingmutt.********.co.uk/2007/...k-you-all.html
I'll come back & post any more information I manage to uncover,
Kind regards
Dave
Thank you for the warm welcome and your interest in my research into my Great Uncle.
As suggested the first date in question is probably a return to Moncton before returning to the UK.
The other date I cant make head 'nor tail of is the entry toward the bottom of the page at ?.6.44, possibly some kind of special leave as his crew flew without him on 8.6.44, I suppose that's the joy of handwritten notes.
The next step is to send everything I've got off to my Aunt in Scotland and my Great Uncles in Australia to see if I can track down his log book.
Thanks to the wealth of information available online about 617 Sqdn. I've been able to read about some of the missions he flew, sadly his last flight was returning from the 11.09.44 raid on the Tirpitz.
Due to the distances involved, Yagodnik in Russia was used as a staging post and the aircraft crashed in Norway during their return flight to the UK on 17.09.44
The crew are buried in Nesbyen churchyard in Norway, here are a couple of links relating to Nesbyen.
https://tihlde.org/~ktsorens/flyvrak/syningen.html
http://wingmutt.********.co.uk/2007/...k-you-all.html
I'll come back & post any more information I manage to uncover,
Kind regards
Dave
TB,
welcome. I came by my copy of his log book via his grandaughter who was my stepson's girlfriend for many years. Sadly they parted and we have lost touch. He flew many trips with W/C Guy (later Sir) Lawrence on 78 Sqn.
I understood that he died of a stroke at about the age of 50.
If you look in the book 'From Hell hull and Halifax' there is I believe a pic of him in what looks like an officer's mess along with several crew members.
welcome. I came by my copy of his log book via his grandaughter who was my stepson's girlfriend for many years. Sadly they parted and we have lost touch. He flew many trips with W/C Guy (later Sir) Lawrence on 78 Sqn.
I understood that he died of a stroke at about the age of 50.
If you look in the book 'From Hell hull and Halifax' there is I believe a pic of him in what looks like an officer's mess along with several crew members.
please forgive a slight thread drift but I wish to find out more about my uncle Archie who served with the RAF from the late forties through to 1960's . I do know he was out in ITS Isle of Man in 1951.
Can someone tell me where would be the best place to post and ask about him and his service years ?
Danny42C, Sir , I hope all is well with your good self , can you tell us more about the rebuilding effort of England's major cities post war ? how was such a monumental task achieved ? or had the bombings eased off a little by late 1944 ? did they use soldiers or private companies to do the rebuilding ?
no doubt your answers will give me more questions !
Until then, stay safe,
Fionn
Can someone tell me where would be the best place to post and ask about him and his service years ?
Danny42C, Sir , I hope all is well with your good self , can you tell us more about the rebuilding effort of England's major cities post war ? how was such a monumental task achieved ? or had the bombings eased off a little by late 1944 ? did they use soldiers or private companies to do the rebuilding ?
no doubt your answers will give me more questions !
Until then, stay safe,
Fionn
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hello, Fionn101 ... I've always been fascinated by how German cities were recovered post WW2. They were significantly more damaged than the UK ones, but both angles are an interesting topic.
Perhaps a new thread? "Rebuilding Cities Post-WW2"?
My late father-in-law, a Civil Engineer by profession, managed to work his way out of his 'reserved occupation' to become a Navigator on Sunderlands ... yes, NS-Z of 201, as it happens, and he attended the 'unveiling at the RAF Museum at Hendon! But in '44 he was dragged back into civvy street to apply his skills to rebuilding Britain.
Perhaps a new thread? "Rebuilding Cities Post-WW2"?
My late father-in-law, a Civil Engineer by profession, managed to work his way out of his 'reserved occupation' to become a Navigator on Sunderlands ... yes, NS-Z of 201, as it happens, and he attended the 'unveiling at the RAF Museum at Hendon! But in '44 he was dragged back into civvy street to apply his skills to rebuilding Britain.
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Service Record
DJFIsh
The line for ??.06.1944 states that he was admitted to hospital (but I can't read the name of the hospital) with the following line showing his discharge date.
Regards
Pete
The line for ??.06.1944 states that he was admitted to hospital (but I can't read the name of the hospital) with the following line showing his discharge date.
Regards
Pete