Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
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Three Wire (your #7312),
What an enormous treasure trove you've given me ! Already I've found out important things I didn't know before (such as the RAAF having a Chemical Defence Research unit of their own, dropping gas, using A-31s). And the RAAF having a hard time with them in the early days.
I'll analyse this and put it comments (but it'll take a long time - I worked up to entry 675 tonight, then went to the end, only to find that there are 4,000 + more to go).
Meanwhile many thanks for the link - it'll keep me busy for weeks !
Danny.
What an enormous treasure trove you've given me ! Already I've found out important things I didn't know before (such as the RAAF having a Chemical Defence Research unit of their own, dropping gas, using A-31s). And the RAAF having a hard time with them in the early days.
I'll analyse this and put it comments (but it'll take a long time - I worked up to entry 675 tonight, then went to the end, only to find that there are 4,000 + more to go).
Meanwhile many thanks for the link - it'll keep me busy for weeks !
Danny.
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Chugalug (your #7319),
We seem to have settled one problem (the identity of the Narellan Vengeance), only to embroil ourselves in another.
First, who writes "Pilot's Notes" (I mean what organisation ?) Boscombe Down ? or who ? Whoever, they * produced this hand-made A.P 2024 for the benefit of the small number of pilots who flew the only A-35s which came to the UK and Australia (for conversion into Target Tugs). Now in all the PNs I've ever seen, they have fully docketed photographs (usually in Page 2 or 3) of the cockpit from all angles.
* Note: "Gage" - the US spelling of the word.
In the UK, they had the A-35s in front of them (also in US). Had nobody got a camera ? Doesn't Consolidated Vultee have a photo ? Appears so, as the A.P. 2024 authors have had to fall back on our old Narellan friend, the panel of which is in the Camden Museum exhibit. And the Museum states the carcase (despite all appearances to the contrary) to be an A-31, and we've all now accepted that because of the full provenance, Slow Flyer's evidence, and the evidence of our own eyes #.
# Note: 12th Aug 2015, #49 on "Will the real EZ999 please step forward ?" Thread:
Danny to BBad,
"Thanks for the links ! - No.2 and No.3 don't add much, but No.1 is the winner! Clear as day on the fuselage sides are the bolt etc. holes for the wing attachments. Even to my unskilled eye, it's plain that there was zero AoI. Proof Positive !"
Who knows what the front cockpit of an A-35 originally looked like ? I've never seen one: all I know is that what is now in the Camden Museum cockpit is nothing like an A-31. Was it from an A-35 ? Dont know - what it is was once an A-31 panel which has passed through the hands of a generation of Technical College students and may now be a one-off like nothing else on earth. (Chugalug, you may remember the "Stearman Pilot's Panel" that came on the market - and which we tore to shreads !)
For the authors of the A.P. to use this in their PNs for an A-35 seems unwise (to say the least). Is there any record of what the Tug pilots found when they climbed into the cockpit with it ?
Enough already, more later.
Danny.
We seem to have settled one problem (the identity of the Narellan Vengeance), only to embroil ourselves in another.
First, who writes "Pilot's Notes" (I mean what organisation ?) Boscombe Down ? or who ? Whoever, they * produced this hand-made A.P 2024 for the benefit of the small number of pilots who flew the only A-35s which came to the UK and Australia (for conversion into Target Tugs). Now in all the PNs I've ever seen, they have fully docketed photographs (usually in Page 2 or 3) of the cockpit from all angles.
* Note: "Gage" - the US spelling of the word.
In the UK, they had the A-35s in front of them (also in US). Had nobody got a camera ? Doesn't Consolidated Vultee have a photo ? Appears so, as the A.P. 2024 authors have had to fall back on our old Narellan friend, the panel of which is in the Camden Museum exhibit. And the Museum states the carcase (despite all appearances to the contrary) to be an A-31, and we've all now accepted that because of the full provenance, Slow Flyer's evidence, and the evidence of our own eyes #.
# Note: 12th Aug 2015, #49 on "Will the real EZ999 please step forward ?" Thread:
Danny to BBad,
"Thanks for the links ! - No.2 and No.3 don't add much, but No.1 is the winner! Clear as day on the fuselage sides are the bolt etc. holes for the wing attachments. Even to my unskilled eye, it's plain that there was zero AoI. Proof Positive !"
Who knows what the front cockpit of an A-35 originally looked like ? I've never seen one: all I know is that what is now in the Camden Museum cockpit is nothing like an A-31. Was it from an A-35 ? Dont know - what it is was once an A-31 panel which has passed through the hands of a generation of Technical College students and may now be a one-off like nothing else on earth. (Chugalug, you may remember the "Stearman Pilot's Panel" that came on the market - and which we tore to shreads !)
For the authors of the A.P. to use this in their PNs for an A-35 seems unwise (to say the least). Is there any record of what the Tug pilots found when they climbed into the cockpit with it ?
Enough already, more later.
Danny.
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Danny,
First thank you for all the comments and observations on that Vengeances of 8 Squadron video. it was a delight to go through them . Your analysis of the crew, the ground crew etc bought a smile to my face. I have never observed that the observer was standing up and watching the guy in the front during the start up sequence till i read your post!.
That video is actually from the Australian War Museum collection .. originally from this page https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/F02561/ and as such was an official film and not someone's personal home film.
As you may have remotely guessed, I was the chappie who decided to download the soundless (and soul less) film, upload it to the bharatrakshak youtube account and annotate as much as I can . I had been eyeing that entry in the AWM Catalog for about 15 years now.. and one fine day i saw they uploaded the video...
My intention is to take all the videos with no names and details and populate it with as much information as i can. towards this I use a feature in youtube called "Annotations". Those annotations wont appear on small devices like phones or tablets, but they do appear if you watch the video on a computer. I have a couple of other 'annotated works' in the bharat rakshak channel. Here is another https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtLwn5sSmsI and one more.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygVsqTVfpWk
I am very much inclined to take some of your comments and annotate the 8 Sqn Vengeance video all over. it would make it even more delightful viewing!
First thank you for all the comments and observations on that Vengeances of 8 Squadron video. it was a delight to go through them . Your analysis of the crew, the ground crew etc bought a smile to my face. I have never observed that the observer was standing up and watching the guy in the front during the start up sequence till i read your post!.
That video is actually from the Australian War Museum collection .. originally from this page https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/F02561/ and as such was an official film and not someone's personal home film.
As you may have remotely guessed, I was the chappie who decided to download the soundless (and soul less) film, upload it to the bharatrakshak youtube account and annotate as much as I can . I had been eyeing that entry in the AWM Catalog for about 15 years now.. and one fine day i saw they uploaded the video...
My intention is to take all the videos with no names and details and populate it with as much information as i can. towards this I use a feature in youtube called "Annotations". Those annotations wont appear on small devices like phones or tablets, but they do appear if you watch the video on a computer. I have a couple of other 'annotated works' in the bharat rakshak channel. Here is another https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtLwn5sSmsI and one more.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygVsqTVfpWk
I am very much inclined to take some of your comments and annotate the 8 Sqn Vengeance video all over. it would make it even more delightful viewing!
Danny, I had missed the "gage" giveaway, almost certainly these pics had a US provenance. Do I remember rightly, that you were never issued with RAF Pilots Notes for the A31/Mk1, I wonder if they ever existed?
Other than the AoI difference, the main difference is that the A-35 was a USAAF aircraft, the A-31 not (operationally that is). Thus the former had official USAAF Pilots Notes, which might have been reproduced in RAF format for the MkIV. So the AP 2024 illustrations could indeed be of the A-35 cockpit.
Now we come to the very last A-31, EZ999. Was it produced after A-35s were in production? Could it be that the "improvements" (other than airframe) required in the A-35 were incorporated into the end of the A-31 production run? Perhaps EZ999 was used as a prototype for the A-35 'internals' before being knocked down and shipped?
Boscombe Down is indeed involved in the production of Pilots Notes, though whatever specific unit actually publishes them these days is no doubt a different one to that in WWII. It might be of some interest that the Chinook 'Mid Life Upgrade' testing at Boscombe Down used a MkI airframe fitted out with the FADECS etc of the MkII, so there is precedence for such arrangements. It was that very Mk1 that BD grounded because the FADECs was found by them to be "positively dangerous" and they urged the RAF to ground their Mk2's too (which were inexplicably already in squadron service!). The RAF didn't, the following day the Mull tragedy happened, and the aftermath is still with us....
Other than the AoI difference, the main difference is that the A-35 was a USAAF aircraft, the A-31 not (operationally that is). Thus the former had official USAAF Pilots Notes, which might have been reproduced in RAF format for the MkIV. So the AP 2024 illustrations could indeed be of the A-35 cockpit.
Now we come to the very last A-31, EZ999. Was it produced after A-35s were in production? Could it be that the "improvements" (other than airframe) required in the A-35 were incorporated into the end of the A-31 production run? Perhaps EZ999 was used as a prototype for the A-35 'internals' before being knocked down and shipped?
Boscombe Down is indeed involved in the production of Pilots Notes, though whatever specific unit actually publishes them these days is no doubt a different one to that in WWII. It might be of some interest that the Chinook 'Mid Life Upgrade' testing at Boscombe Down used a MkI airframe fitted out with the FADECS etc of the MkII, so there is precedence for such arrangements. It was that very Mk1 that BD grounded because the FADECs was found by them to be "positively dangerous" and they urged the RAF to ground their Mk2's too (which were inexplicably already in squadron service!). The RAF didn't, the following day the Mull tragedy happened, and the aftermath is still with us....
Last edited by Chugalug2; 20th Aug 2015 at 08:20.
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jaganpvs,
Thank you for the Post (haven't we met before ?) and the links. The first was before my time in the IAF, but the second <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtLwn5sSmsI> has a "Chopra" at 2.01
I know that "Chopra" is a not uncommon name, but might this be the ebullient Flt Lt "Pop" Chopra, "A" Flight Commander on 8 Sqdn when I was there ? (The RAF "B" Flight Commander was Flt Lt Bill Boyd Berry), and Sqn Ldr N. Prasad was in command.
Now <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygVsqTVfpWk> shows a lot of earlier Hawker Harts and Audaxes, but if you stay with it, a following series of videos, including "Southern Air Command" and "80 Golden Years of IAF History" (or something like it) comes up.
Tomorrow will try the Vengeance YouTube again, to see if I can find the follow-up I mentioned to Chugalug, to check if I can recover the one on the IAF's modern machinery. Of course, feel free to stick my comments on that one with the monkey - if you'll take any flak that comes up !
Danny42C
Thank you for the Post (haven't we met before ?) and the links. The first was before my time in the IAF, but the second <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtLwn5sSmsI> has a "Chopra" at 2.01
I know that "Chopra" is a not uncommon name, but might this be the ebullient Flt Lt "Pop" Chopra, "A" Flight Commander on 8 Sqdn when I was there ? (The RAF "B" Flight Commander was Flt Lt Bill Boyd Berry), and Sqn Ldr N. Prasad was in command.
Now <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygVsqTVfpWk> shows a lot of earlier Hawker Harts and Audaxes, but if you stay with it, a following series of videos, including "Southern Air Command" and "80 Golden Years of IAF History" (or something like it) comes up.
Tomorrow will try the Vengeance YouTube again, to see if I can find the follow-up I mentioned to Chugalug, to check if I can recover the one on the IAF's modern machinery. Of course, feel free to stick my comments on that one with the monkey - if you'll take any flak that comes up !
Danny42C
Pilot's Notes
Hi Danny, According to the history of the RAF Handling Squadron aircraft handling information (Pilot's Notes) was provided from the mid 30s by pilots who flew each new type. Initially parts of CFS were involved, and this task seems to have moved to several different units. In the early days the pilots flew the aircraft and then wrote handling notes, and were given access to the aircraft at the beginning of its RAF service. Notes were written for all aircraft used by the RAF (including aircraft from the USA), and latterly for Army and Naval aircraft. With the advent of Lightnings, Javelins etc Pilot's Notes were considered to provide too little information and so the Aircrew Manual arrived - a much more comprehensive document. At about this time the pilots on the squadron (who were known as 'fumblers') stopped flying the types they wrote about as it was too expensive. So maybe one of these pilots wrote the Notes - with the Phantom we wrote our own Aircrew Manual and didn't use the USN Manual.
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I know that "Chopra" is a not uncommon name, but might this be the ebullient Flt Lt "Pop" Chopra, "A" Flight Commander on 8 Sqdn when I was there ? (The RAF "B" Flight Commander was Flt Lt Bill Boyd Berry), and Sqn Ldr N. Prasad was in command.
Yes, we did interact on this thread earlier. though my last post is now about an year old
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A-31s and A-35s - again !
Chugalug,
From memory, there were sketchy Pilots Notes for the V.72, issued by Vultee. They were not of much use. (I recall that they recommended, in the event of a stuck-up u/c - "reduce speed as far as possible, and use rudder to yaw the aircraft vigorously from side to side" (?? - this struck us as a fair way to induce a spin). But by the time we got them, we could have written much better PNs ourselves. All our knowledge was gained from experience and transmitted by word of mouth.
I'm afraid I don't know if the A-31 and A-35 production overlapped. Peter C. Smith reports that the Vultee V-72 cockpit was originally planned to RAF requirements (after all, we were paying for them !), to become the Vengeance Mk.I. But the Americans took some of the production, called it the A-31, and rearranged the cockpits to their own design. This may have been carried over into the later A-35s. But this is guesswork.
I know nothing of helicopters or their operation, and I do not wish to re-light the old controversy here, but I agree with you that the Mull of Kintyre accident and its consequences leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
I started on a review of the A.P.2024 illustrations, but it became too big to handle now, and I'll Post it another day.
Danny.
From memory, there were sketchy Pilots Notes for the V.72, issued by Vultee. They were not of much use. (I recall that they recommended, in the event of a stuck-up u/c - "reduce speed as far as possible, and use rudder to yaw the aircraft vigorously from side to side" (?? - this struck us as a fair way to induce a spin). But by the time we got them, we could have written much better PNs ourselves. All our knowledge was gained from experience and transmitted by word of mouth.
I'm afraid I don't know if the A-31 and A-35 production overlapped. Peter C. Smith reports that the Vultee V-72 cockpit was originally planned to RAF requirements (after all, we were paying for them !), to become the Vengeance Mk.I. But the Americans took some of the production, called it the A-31, and rearranged the cockpits to their own design. This may have been carried over into the later A-35s. But this is guesswork.
I know nothing of helicopters or their operation, and I do not wish to re-light the old controversy here, but I agree with you that the Mull of Kintyre accident and its consequences leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
I started on a review of the A.P.2024 illustrations, but it became too big to handle now, and I'll Post it another day.
Danny.
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Charlie Juliet,
Thank you for the detailed information on PNs (YLSNED).
The "Aircrew Manual" long pre-dated the Lightning era, Browsing on the Brazilian River in search of a PN for a Spitfire XVI, I found on offer an Aircrew Manual for the Spitfire as well.
Danny.
Thank you for the detailed information on PNs (YLSNED).
The "Aircrew Manual" long pre-dated the Lightning era, Browsing on the Brazilian River in search of a PN for a Spitfire XVI, I found on offer an Aircrew Manual for the Spitfire as well.
Danny.
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Outwitting HMC&E (that was) !
Some time ago on this Thread there was a discussion on the various nefarious ways in which the red dye could be taken out of red diesel and petrol, so that you could run road vehicles cheaply (illegally) on it without much fear of having "your collar felt".
On "Yesterday" Channel (19) 18.8.15., on "Wartime Farm" (1100), there was an incredible demonstration of a method I had never heard of before. A 800 gm loaf of bread was upended, a hollow dug in the end, red petrol poured into this dribbled out the other end gin-clear.
I don't think the programme was a "spoof". Anybody else heard of this (or is prepared to try it ?
Danny42C
On "Yesterday" Channel (19) 18.8.15., on "Wartime Farm" (1100), there was an incredible demonstration of a method I had never heard of before. A 800 gm loaf of bread was upended, a hollow dug in the end, red petrol poured into this dribbled out the other end gin-clear.
I don't think the programme was a "spoof". Anybody else heard of this (or is prepared to try it ?
Danny42C
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That's fine, I bake my own.
The Narellan Vengeance discussion has been most interesting.
BTW, looking at the ADF Serials site, I couldn't help noticing how many VVs came a cropper as a result of undercart (and also possibly brake) problems.
What was your experience of that, Danny?
The Narellan Vengeance discussion has been most interesting.
BTW, looking at the ADF Serials site, I couldn't help noticing how many VVs came a cropper as a result of undercart (and also possibly brake) problems.
What was your experience of that, Danny?
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Chugalug,
The "F-35" has its nose in front by 110 Posts now. What else can there possibly be to talk about ? As I see it there are only two questions:
1. Are we going to get it ?...... 2. If we do, will it work ?
There is one sure-fire way of settling "2". Find a war going on somewhere and think up a rationale for supplying a few F-35 to one side. There is nothing like a war for showing what kit works - and what doesn't ! (I've been told the "Sidewinder" was "Road-tested" in this way, but then you hear all sorts of things).
Revenons à nos moutons.
----------------------------------------------------
What we do know is in front of us now. First, what an "embarras de richesses" ! Specifically;
A P 2024A VOL 1 SECN 3
I have listed all the items, and have added comment but just annotated many of them briefly as follows:
"NK" (No knowledge it is simply beyond me)
"##" (This is an item fitted to an A-31, and seemingly carried over to the A-35)
"//" (An item not fitted to an A-31 - but might well be on an A-35)
"DK" (I never heard of any A-31 or A-35 flying at night. IMHO it would be almost impossible, for the flame dazzle from the stacks would compound the difficulty caused by the long nose's restriction on forward visibility. Anyway, it's a Dive Bomber - and "the dog has to see the rabbit !"
"??" What is this ?
Cockpit Spotlight....................DK
Parking Brake Control.............##
Manifold Pressure
Gage Drain Valve....................//
Vacuum Regulator Valve.........??
Tailwheel Lock Control............## A nuisance. Didn't need it, most people kept it unlocked all the time.
Cockpit Heater Control............// Well, they were going to the UK.
^^^^^^^
RIGHT SIDE
-----------------------------------------------------------
Gun Safety Switch.................// Suppose we might have had one, can't remember.
Cowl Flap Control.................## I was about to suggest that for one of the two knobs on the right quadrant (which have foxed the writers - they don't know either).
Optical Gun Sight Rheostat....// Suppose they mean "Reflector Sight" I've already stated my opinion of that whole idea.
Volt Ammeter......................##
Fuel Gage Lamp Rheostat......DK
Switch for destruction of
R3003 Radio and Safety Switch
for same..............................NK
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
PILOT'S INSTRUMENT PANEL FIG 3
LEFT SIDE
-----------------------------------------------------------
Trap Tank Valve Control........// The only "Control" the A-31 Trap Tank ever had was the switch for the original electric pump before that was replaced by an EDP
Fuel Pump Control Panel (includes
pump switches, Trap Tank Test switch
Fuel Pressure Warning Light and
Lamp Test Switch)...............## A-31 had just a row of six switches for the wing tank pumps, plus one for the Trap Tank.
As for the rest......................//
Ring Sight Stowed................// You would have to, or it would be in the way of your Reflector Sight
Landing gear and
wing Flap indicator...............##
Static Pressure Selector
valve..................................##
Hydraulic Pressure Gage......##
Ignition Switch...................## This would have been the standard US 5-position rotary "OFF-BAT-L-R-BOTH"
^^^^^^^
LEFT SIDE
Aileron Trim Tab Control......##
Directional Instrument Lamps
Rheostat.............................DK
Cockpit Lamps Rheostat.......DK
Starter Switches..................## (Powered inertia type) Looks as if two separate "Energise" and "Engage" switches were provided for the A-31. Many other types had only a three-way switch: "Energise-Off-Engage", so you couldn't keep cranking. See Post #7306 at 3.38 into the video.
Electrical Switches for Oil
Dilution..............................//
Primer Pitot Heater............## The A-31 had a Pitot Heater (I think). But what does "Primer" mean ?
Instrument Lamps..............DK
Formation Lamps................DK
Navigation Lamps and
Landing Lamps...................DK
Provision for Optical
Gunsight...........................// This is the hole in the angled panel below the main panel
FIG 3
------------------------------------------------------------
A P 2024A VOL 1 SECN 3
Throttle Warning horn cut-out
switch.................................................//
Left side gun charging
handles................................................// Interesting. Suppose we would say "Cocking Handles". We didn't havethem on the A-31s, so a dud round meant a dead gun. But I'd think it would be a bit of a heave to cock a 0.50 !
Directional Instrument Lamps
Rheostat............................................DK They never flew at night. They must mean the DI. So we're back again with the problem of the Two Balls (I have a theory - Rabelaisian comment not welcome !).
Flight Report Holder........... ..// See the Story of the Form One over the Everglades (in my Posts somewhere !) EDIT: P.119 #2362
Fluorescent Lamps................DK
Mixture Control....................##
Throttle Control with Bomb
Release Switch.....................##
Blower Control.....................## Supercharger gear selector
Propeller Pitch Control..........##
Landing Gear Control............##
Wing Flap Control.................##
Dive Brake Control...............##
Bomb Door Control...............##
Rudder Trim Tab Control.......##
Elevator Trim Tab Control.....##
Bomb Control Panel...............##
Fuel Gages...........................##
Emergency Fuel Pump
Control................................## Pilot's (Dual) Wobble Pump.
A P 2024A VOL 1 SECN 3
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
PILOT'S COCKPIT CONTROL ARRANGEMENTS - LEFT SIDE
FIG 1
---------------------------------------------------------------
A P 2024A Vol 1 Sect 3
Gunners Control Stick (Stowed).................## This fitted into a socket on the gunner's cockpit floor. He had this, a rudder bar and a throttle - but nothing else. In the A-31, there was an ALT and an ASI above the Chart Table. He could fly home with this, but couldn't land. It was useless for the purpose of instruction, but each new A-31 chap had one ride in this with an
"experienced" pilot up front, and then he was on his own.
No problem, for in those days there was no dual Spitfire or Hurricane, you just read the PN, hopped in and flew.
Support for Astro Compass..........NK
Stowage Clips for Signal Pistol
Cartridges.................................##
Gunner's Throttle Control...........##
Cockpit Lamp (hidden by
structure).................................DK
3615 Station Box......................NK
Gunner's Control Stick
(Stowed)..................................##
Mounting Shelf for Aperiodic
Compass...................................NK
Gunners Emergency Fuel
Pump Control............................## This is the dual "Wobble Pump" handle !
But what on earth is that extraordinary hinged structure in the middle of the cockpit floor behind it (just in front of the gunner's seat ?)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
FIG 1 GUNNER'S COCKPIT AND ARRANGEMENTS LEFT SIDE FIG 1
A P 2024A VOL 1 SECN 3
Gunner's Cockpit Lamp Control Box................NK
Radio Telegraph Key......................................NK
Radio Transmitter - Type 12D........................NK
Chart Board................................................## (On which "Stew", my gunner, banged his nose and lost his sense of smell). EDIT: P.143 # 2860 & P.144 #2878
Mount for Astro Compass..............................NK
NOTE
For views of remainder of radio equipment, refer to Fig 2 of Secn 1 and figs 1&2 of Secn 3
Fig 1.............Radio Equipment..........Fig1
Chugalug (Your #7313)
Confusion worse confounded ! This is my analysis. We know that this A-31 started off with the correct A-31 panel (which doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to what we have here). My guess is that at some stage an A-35 panel * was transplanted into its place. Then the engineering students played with it for 20-odd years, and now we have this. It is the very last thing that the compilers of A.P.2024A should have used in their illustrations, as it may now be a one-off.
Note * Items like the angled extension at the lower end of the panel, the gun cocking handles and the "optical sight" look to me like belonging to a factory-produced A-35 fit. I don't think the Sydney Tech College was responsible for any of these.
And now we come to the problem of the duplicate ball instruments on the panel. Remember we are now concerned with a '40-'45 aircraft, not with modern Heading Instruments (?). Clearly nobody needed them. For years up to the '70s the RAF had the Turn'n Bank, the US the Needle'n Ball. Under the hood we all slaved away on Limited Panel (in my case "Needle-Ball-Airspeed") until our eyeballs were rotating. The DI in the RAF was our old, penny-plain version. Five degree markings (guess anything between) and a locking knob below.
But at the same time an Improved Version seems to have appeared in the US. This had one-degree gradations and a ball below. (Why, when everyone had one [or our "Bank"] next door on the panel already ?). Be that as it may, some manufacturers took them up, Curtis (P-40 for one, I've checked on Google for pics of the panel), the two are there all right - but they are some distance apart, so there could be an argument for two, whereas on the A-35 they are side-by-side).
Did any British manufacturer fit these ? Everything I've flown (including the US BT-13, AT-6, P-47 and A-31 had only one) - and I felt no pain !
Somebody out there has the answer to this.
Danny.
The "F-35" has its nose in front by 110 Posts now. What else can there possibly be to talk about ? As I see it there are only two questions:
1. Are we going to get it ?...... 2. If we do, will it work ?
There is one sure-fire way of settling "2". Find a war going on somewhere and think up a rationale for supplying a few F-35 to one side. There is nothing like a war for showing what kit works - and what doesn't ! (I've been told the "Sidewinder" was "Road-tested" in this way, but then you hear all sorts of things).
Revenons à nos moutons.
----------------------------------------------------
What we do know is in front of us now. First, what an "embarras de richesses" ! Specifically;
A P 2024A VOL 1 SECN 3
I have listed all the items, and have added comment but just annotated many of them briefly as follows:
"NK" (No knowledge it is simply beyond me)
"##" (This is an item fitted to an A-31, and seemingly carried over to the A-35)
"//" (An item not fitted to an A-31 - but might well be on an A-35)
"DK" (I never heard of any A-31 or A-35 flying at night. IMHO it would be almost impossible, for the flame dazzle from the stacks would compound the difficulty caused by the long nose's restriction on forward visibility. Anyway, it's a Dive Bomber - and "the dog has to see the rabbit !"
"??" What is this ?
Cockpit Spotlight....................DK
Parking Brake Control.............##
Manifold Pressure
Gage Drain Valve....................//
Vacuum Regulator Valve.........??
Tailwheel Lock Control............## A nuisance. Didn't need it, most people kept it unlocked all the time.
Cockpit Heater Control............// Well, they were going to the UK.
^^^^^^^
RIGHT SIDE
-----------------------------------------------------------
Gun Safety Switch.................// Suppose we might have had one, can't remember.
Cowl Flap Control.................## I was about to suggest that for one of the two knobs on the right quadrant (which have foxed the writers - they don't know either).
Optical Gun Sight Rheostat....// Suppose they mean "Reflector Sight" I've already stated my opinion of that whole idea.
Volt Ammeter......................##
Fuel Gage Lamp Rheostat......DK
Switch for destruction of
R3003 Radio and Safety Switch
for same..............................NK
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
PILOT'S INSTRUMENT PANEL FIG 3
LEFT SIDE
-----------------------------------------------------------
Trap Tank Valve Control........// The only "Control" the A-31 Trap Tank ever had was the switch for the original electric pump before that was replaced by an EDP
Fuel Pump Control Panel (includes
pump switches, Trap Tank Test switch
Fuel Pressure Warning Light and
Lamp Test Switch)...............## A-31 had just a row of six switches for the wing tank pumps, plus one for the Trap Tank.
As for the rest......................//
Ring Sight Stowed................// You would have to, or it would be in the way of your Reflector Sight
Landing gear and
wing Flap indicator...............##
Static Pressure Selector
valve..................................##
Hydraulic Pressure Gage......##
Ignition Switch...................## This would have been the standard US 5-position rotary "OFF-BAT-L-R-BOTH"
^^^^^^^
LEFT SIDE
Aileron Trim Tab Control......##
Directional Instrument Lamps
Rheostat.............................DK
Cockpit Lamps Rheostat.......DK
Starter Switches..................## (Powered inertia type) Looks as if two separate "Energise" and "Engage" switches were provided for the A-31. Many other types had only a three-way switch: "Energise-Off-Engage", so you couldn't keep cranking. See Post #7306 at 3.38 into the video.
Electrical Switches for Oil
Dilution..............................//
Primer Pitot Heater............## The A-31 had a Pitot Heater (I think). But what does "Primer" mean ?
Instrument Lamps..............DK
Formation Lamps................DK
Navigation Lamps and
Landing Lamps...................DK
Provision for Optical
Gunsight...........................// This is the hole in the angled panel below the main panel
FIG 3
------------------------------------------------------------
A P 2024A VOL 1 SECN 3
Throttle Warning horn cut-out
switch.................................................//
Left side gun charging
handles................................................// Interesting. Suppose we would say "Cocking Handles". We didn't havethem on the A-31s, so a dud round meant a dead gun. But I'd think it would be a bit of a heave to cock a 0.50 !
Directional Instrument Lamps
Rheostat............................................DK They never flew at night. They must mean the DI. So we're back again with the problem of the Two Balls (I have a theory - Rabelaisian comment not welcome !).
Flight Report Holder........... ..// See the Story of the Form One over the Everglades (in my Posts somewhere !) EDIT: P.119 #2362
Fluorescent Lamps................DK
Mixture Control....................##
Throttle Control with Bomb
Release Switch.....................##
Blower Control.....................## Supercharger gear selector
Propeller Pitch Control..........##
Landing Gear Control............##
Wing Flap Control.................##
Dive Brake Control...............##
Bomb Door Control...............##
Rudder Trim Tab Control.......##
Elevator Trim Tab Control.....##
Bomb Control Panel...............##
Fuel Gages...........................##
Emergency Fuel Pump
Control................................## Pilot's (Dual) Wobble Pump.
A P 2024A VOL 1 SECN 3
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
PILOT'S COCKPIT CONTROL ARRANGEMENTS - LEFT SIDE
FIG 1
---------------------------------------------------------------
A P 2024A Vol 1 Sect 3
Gunners Control Stick (Stowed).................## This fitted into a socket on the gunner's cockpit floor. He had this, a rudder bar and a throttle - but nothing else. In the A-31, there was an ALT and an ASI above the Chart Table. He could fly home with this, but couldn't land. It was useless for the purpose of instruction, but each new A-31 chap had one ride in this with an
"experienced" pilot up front, and then he was on his own.
No problem, for in those days there was no dual Spitfire or Hurricane, you just read the PN, hopped in and flew.
Support for Astro Compass..........NK
Stowage Clips for Signal Pistol
Cartridges.................................##
Gunner's Throttle Control...........##
Cockpit Lamp (hidden by
structure).................................DK
3615 Station Box......................NK
Gunner's Control Stick
(Stowed)..................................##
Mounting Shelf for Aperiodic
Compass...................................NK
Gunners Emergency Fuel
Pump Control............................## This is the dual "Wobble Pump" handle !
But what on earth is that extraordinary hinged structure in the middle of the cockpit floor behind it (just in front of the gunner's seat ?)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
FIG 1 GUNNER'S COCKPIT AND ARRANGEMENTS LEFT SIDE FIG 1
A P 2024A VOL 1 SECN 3
Gunner's Cockpit Lamp Control Box................NK
Radio Telegraph Key......................................NK
Radio Transmitter - Type 12D........................NK
Chart Board................................................## (On which "Stew", my gunner, banged his nose and lost his sense of smell). EDIT: P.143 # 2860 & P.144 #2878
Mount for Astro Compass..............................NK
NOTE
For views of remainder of radio equipment, refer to Fig 2 of Secn 1 and figs 1&2 of Secn 3
Fig 1.............Radio Equipment..........Fig1
Chugalug (Your #7313)
Confusion worse confounded ! This is my analysis. We know that this A-31 started off with the correct A-31 panel (which doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to what we have here). My guess is that at some stage an A-35 panel * was transplanted into its place. Then the engineering students played with it for 20-odd years, and now we have this. It is the very last thing that the compilers of A.P.2024A should have used in their illustrations, as it may now be a one-off.
Note * Items like the angled extension at the lower end of the panel, the gun cocking handles and the "optical sight" look to me like belonging to a factory-produced A-35 fit. I don't think the Sydney Tech College was responsible for any of these.
And now we come to the problem of the duplicate ball instruments on the panel. Remember we are now concerned with a '40-'45 aircraft, not with modern Heading Instruments (?). Clearly nobody needed them. For years up to the '70s the RAF had the Turn'n Bank, the US the Needle'n Ball. Under the hood we all slaved away on Limited Panel (in my case "Needle-Ball-Airspeed") until our eyeballs were rotating. The DI in the RAF was our old, penny-plain version. Five degree markings (guess anything between) and a locking knob below.
But at the same time an Improved Version seems to have appeared in the US. This had one-degree gradations and a ball below. (Why, when everyone had one [or our "Bank"] next door on the panel already ?). Be that as it may, some manufacturers took them up, Curtis (P-40 for one, I've checked on Google for pics of the panel), the two are there all right - but they are some distance apart, so there could be an argument for two, whereas on the A-35 they are side-by-side).
Did any British manufacturer fit these ? Everything I've flown (including the US BT-13, AT-6, P-47 and A-31 had only one) - and I felt no pain !
Somebody out there has the answer to this.
Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 22nd Aug 2015 at 11:44. Reason: Snags & Add Post References
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Stanwell,
Yes, they do seem to have had a lot of trouble with the u/cs, particularly in the early days, don't they ? We had very little trouble with ours, the undercarriages themselves gave no cause for concern, and I suspect finger trouble might be at the root of it, but would not have expected that, for surely your people would be in the 250-350 hour bracket when they came to the A-31s.
The electric fuel pumps were our nightmare, having to "wobble-pump" home was an everyday occurrence until they put in an EDP for the Trap Tank. And of course you could not operate with the things until we'd got that sorted out !
Danny.
Yes, they do seem to have had a lot of trouble with the u/cs, particularly in the early days, don't they ? We had very little trouble with ours, the undercarriages themselves gave no cause for concern, and I suspect finger trouble might be at the root of it, but would not have expected that, for surely your people would be in the 250-350 hour bracket when they came to the A-31s.
The electric fuel pumps were our nightmare, having to "wobble-pump" home was an everyday occurrence until they put in an EDP for the Trap Tank. And of course you could not operate with the things until we'd got that sorted out !
Danny.
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Originally Posted by Danny42C
But what on earth is that extraordinary hinged structure in the middle of the cockpit floor behind it (just in front of the gunner's seat ?)
Danny, your post 7334 is tribute indeed to your dedication to this thread, and gives us all a quick reference to the differences of the A-31/35 'internals'. Your conclusion sounds to me to be the most likely explanation of the seemingly hybrid nature of EZ999's cockpit arrangements, that it was saved as 'the last of the A-31 line' but the later and better equipped A-35 internals allowed for better instructional opportunities.
Having said that, a couple of points to raise:-
First, are you saying that there was no lighting at all in the A-31, no nav lights, no cockpit lighting, no landing lights, etc? I take the point that Dive-Bombing is a daylight occupation, but the way there or back could be before daybreak or after sunset could it not? OK the aircraft didn't lend itself to night flying but war has a way of inflicting its own agenda (like a delayed RTB due avoiding an enemy fighter?). If the A-31 was so deprived, I think that the USAAF would have required a minimal night/low vis capability in the A-35, wouldn't you?
Secondly, AP 2024A presumably preceded AP 2024D (the Roneoed no illustrations austerity RAF MkIV Pilots Notes). If it was the MkIV 'master reference pilots notes' (one copy for Wg Co Flying only?) it was published with US illustrations of the A-35 generic aircraft and not the much later post-war Narellan fitted panel, modified or otherwise. I suspect that the AP 2024A illustrations are of the A-35 ex-factory gates cockpit, and as 'shoe horned' into EZ999 as you suggest. Do you concur?
Having said that, a couple of points to raise:-
First, are you saying that there was no lighting at all in the A-31, no nav lights, no cockpit lighting, no landing lights, etc? I take the point that Dive-Bombing is a daylight occupation, but the way there or back could be before daybreak or after sunset could it not? OK the aircraft didn't lend itself to night flying but war has a way of inflicting its own agenda (like a delayed RTB due avoiding an enemy fighter?). If the A-31 was so deprived, I think that the USAAF would have required a minimal night/low vis capability in the A-35, wouldn't you?
Secondly, AP 2024A presumably preceded AP 2024D (the Roneoed no illustrations austerity RAF MkIV Pilots Notes). If it was the MkIV 'master reference pilots notes' (one copy for Wg Co Flying only?) it was published with US illustrations of the A-35 generic aircraft and not the much later post-war Narellan fitted panel, modified or otherwise. I suspect that the AP 2024A illustrations are of the A-35 ex-factory gates cockpit, and as 'shoe horned' into EZ999 as you suggest. Do you concur?
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Chugalug,
The difficulty is that this saga is so full of "most likely"s. I am rather hoping that we may hear from Slow Flyer, for by all accounts he did much of the engineering work needed to prepare the Narellan Vengeance for display, and though perhaps not an instrument specialist himself, he would surely know something of the history of the cockpit furniture in it. For it is a truly wondrous thing.
If only we could get hold of someone who flew them or in them in their TT role, we could ask him, but the chances of finding any more pilots or engineers of that era are vanishingly slim now, and when you narrow it down to the small number of TT operators, it must be nil.
I am at a disadvantage as I've never even seen an A-35, and my memory of the contents of my A-31s is growing mistier by the year. Of course the A-31 must have had a full kit of night flying lighting, but as I never recall switching my nav lights on even once in the three years I had them, I wouldn't have an idea where to look for the switches. And this specimen has all kinds of coloured lights under a wing and Lord knows what else besides - no wonder the lower panel has such a mass of bolt-on switchgear.
An A-31 certainly had no landing or taxi lights, I'm sure about that. But nobody in India/Burma ever tried to fly them at night: we never even considered the possibility. As for the USAAC, they didn't want the A-35 by night or by day and never attempted to use them operationally.
Certainly the Technical College disposed of the A-31 front cockpit panels early on, and got an A-35 set from another scrapyard, but what went into it after that is anybody's guess. I am satisfied now that EZ999 is an A-31, but the rest is guesswork. Do I concur ? Yes, I do !
MPN11,
Unlikely as it sounds, your idea is the only one in town so far. Or it could be a "clothes-horse" to dry your kit in the monsoon ? Really, the longer I look at it, the more mystified I am. One of the long members has a series of holes drilled in it, obviously to make adjustments - but for what ?
I'm beginning to think that we've learned as much as we shall ever know of the hidden life of EZ999 !
Cheers, both, Danny.
The difficulty is that this saga is so full of "most likely"s. I am rather hoping that we may hear from Slow Flyer, for by all accounts he did much of the engineering work needed to prepare the Narellan Vengeance for display, and though perhaps not an instrument specialist himself, he would surely know something of the history of the cockpit furniture in it. For it is a truly wondrous thing.
If only we could get hold of someone who flew them or in them in their TT role, we could ask him, but the chances of finding any more pilots or engineers of that era are vanishingly slim now, and when you narrow it down to the small number of TT operators, it must be nil.
I am at a disadvantage as I've never even seen an A-35, and my memory of the contents of my A-31s is growing mistier by the year. Of course the A-31 must have had a full kit of night flying lighting, but as I never recall switching my nav lights on even once in the three years I had them, I wouldn't have an idea where to look for the switches. And this specimen has all kinds of coloured lights under a wing and Lord knows what else besides - no wonder the lower panel has such a mass of bolt-on switchgear.
An A-31 certainly had no landing or taxi lights, I'm sure about that. But nobody in India/Burma ever tried to fly them at night: we never even considered the possibility. As for the USAAC, they didn't want the A-35 by night or by day and never attempted to use them operationally.
Certainly the Technical College disposed of the A-31 front cockpit panels early on, and got an A-35 set from another scrapyard, but what went into it after that is anybody's guess. I am satisfied now that EZ999 is an A-31, but the rest is guesswork. Do I concur ? Yes, I do !
MPN11,
Unlikely as it sounds, your idea is the only one in town so far. Or it could be a "clothes-horse" to dry your kit in the monsoon ? Really, the longer I look at it, the more mystified I am. One of the long members has a series of holes drilled in it, obviously to make adjustments - but for what ?
I'm beginning to think that we've learned as much as we shall ever know of the hidden life of EZ999 !
Cheers, both, Danny.
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Originally Posted by Danny42C
Unlikely as it sounds, your idea is the only one in town so far. Or it could be a "clothes-horse" to dry your kit in the monsoon ? Really, the longer I look at it, the more mystified I am. One of the long members has a series of holes drilled in it, obviously to make adjustments - but for what ?
The adjustment holes facilitate the TT Operator getting the optimum height for his task? Seems a rather luxurious arrangement, to be sure! But then a built-in clothes-horse would be even more luxurious!
However, as you noted in your post above ...
... but the chances of finding any more pilots or engineers of that era are vanishingly slim now, and when you narrow it down to the small number of TT operators, it must be nil.
