Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
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Warmtoast (your #7579 Re mentions of IRIS),
I'm ashamed to admit that I was in ATC '55 to '72, and have never heard of IRIS until now ! - although of course we had a Calibration Flight round from time to time to check up on our Aids, and an ATC Examining Board occasionally came round from Shawbury to ensure that we were all up to speed.
"...This would have been around 1954-1955...!"
Extract from my Post p.188/#3753:
"....Now 608 had come back on the frequency, so it was a public confession. Guffaws and catcalls filled the air (I'm afraid R/T discipline was rather poor in those days !)...."
Must have been IRIS's off day !
Danny.
I'm ashamed to admit that I was in ATC '55 to '72, and have never heard of IRIS until now ! - although of course we had a Calibration Flight round from time to time to check up on our Aids, and an ATC Examining Board occasionally came round from Shawbury to ensure that we were all up to speed.
"...This would have been around 1954-1955...!"
Extract from my Post p.188/#3753:
"....Now 608 had come back on the frequency, so it was a public confession. Guffaws and catcalls filled the air (I'm afraid R/T discipline was rather poor in those days !)...."
Must have been IRIS's off day !
Danny.
OLD RED DAMASK
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I reckon that in 1952, at the ripe old age of 12, you'd be at school in Blackpool. Had St. Joseph's College ("Holy Joe's" - my alma mater) closed down by then ?
Wing Commander Tuarek was still OC of the ATC sqn into the '70's in Blackpool.
A broken Hart for Danny (actually, it's a Hind)
I don't know what went wrong, Danny, but would this fill the bill? Hopefully save a lot of searching.
For everyone else, it's a 142 Sqn Hind, Aldergrove armaments camp, 1938. The Irish bogland flipped over three aircraft, while old-timers will know that cows find doped fabric is delicious even though the consequences are disastrous for bovine and machine alike
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Danny,
Re Wing Commander Taurek and a possible connection with the (pretentious) Melbourne suburb of Toorak...
It's most unlikely that there's any Polish influence on the name.
The locality took its name from Toorak House, built by James Jackson in 1849.
Apparently, he named the house after the Aboriginal word for its particular location on the River Yarra.. (place of reeds).
Still the best thread on PPRuNe.
Re Wing Commander Taurek and a possible connection with the (pretentious) Melbourne suburb of Toorak...
It's most unlikely that there's any Polish influence on the name.
The locality took its name from Toorak House, built by James Jackson in 1849.
Apparently, he named the house after the Aboriginal word for its particular location on the River Yarra.. (place of reeds).
Still the best thread on PPRuNe.
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lasernigel,
Oh dear ! - and Pure Maths was one of my Principal Subjects in my H.S.C. ('38). Senior Moment, I'm afraid - they're becoming more numerous lately !
Old Holy Joe's a long time gone - an "Executive Housing Development" covers Layton Mount now. Right in the middle of it is a "St.Joseph's Close" - the last trace in memory of the school. And I think the old stone gateposts were there for some time after. I was a boarder there from '29 to '38.
Danny.
Oh dear ! - and Pure Maths was one of my Principal Subjects in my H.S.C. ('38). Senior Moment, I'm afraid - they're becoming more numerous lately !
Old Holy Joe's a long time gone - an "Executive Housing Development" covers Layton Mount now. Right in the middle of it is a "St.Joseph's Close" - the last trace in memory of the school. And I think the old stone gateposts were there for some time after. I was a boarder there from '29 to '38.
Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 28th Oct 2015 at 00:04. Reason: GET THE CALLSIGN RIGHT !
OLD RED DAMASK
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Old Holy Joe's a long time gone - an "Executive Housing Development" covers Layton Mount now. Right in the middle of it is a "St.Joseph's Close" - the last trace in memory of the school. And I think the old stone gateposts were there for some time after. I was a boarder there from '29 to '38.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Mar...tholic_Academy
St Joseph's College. Blackpool
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Geriaviator,
That's the one ! Thanks ! Will squirrel it away until occasion arises (which might be some time, as my scintillating wit [what does it do after eight ?] does not always receive the recognition which I feel is its due).
This has saved me from a lot of tedious searching - many thanks again, and
Cheers, Danny.
That's the one ! Thanks ! Will squirrel it away until occasion arises (which might be some time, as my scintillating wit [what does it do after eight ?] does not always receive the recognition which I feel is its due).
This has saved me from a lot of tedious searching - many thanks again, and
Cheers, Danny.
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lasernigel
There is a wealth of the history of old St. Joseph's, and pictures, available on its website, from which these have been lifted.
I can add little to this, except to add that, when the Christian Brothers were invited by the Bishop to take over, the Girl's School had to hive off to Layton Hill Convent, as the statutes of the Brothers forbade them from teaching young ladies.
The intervening distance would need a bike to cover in the little free "extramural" time we were allowed - and the boarders were not allowed bikes (nor were they at Layton Hill !)
They thought of everything !
Danny.
The New Building in my time.
The gates to the Old House.
The Old House (onto which the New Building backed - in process of demolition ?).
"Boarder's fee note from the Fifties. Charges were £42 per term plus extras! Was it worth it? At that time, the fees at Eton were £600 per term".
From 1938 to 1955 the Inflation factor was 2.56. In 1938 the Boarding Fees were £30 per term plus extras, which makes the Fifties Fees a bit of a bargain !
There is a wealth of the history of old St. Joseph's, and pictures, available on its website, from which these have been lifted.
I can add little to this, except to add that, when the Christian Brothers were invited by the Bishop to take over, the Girl's School had to hive off to Layton Hill Convent, as the statutes of the Brothers forbade them from teaching young ladies.
The intervening distance would need a bike to cover in the little free "extramural" time we were allowed - and the boarders were not allowed bikes (nor were they at Layton Hill !)
They thought of everything !
Danny.
The New Building in my time.
The gates to the Old House.
The Old House (onto which the New Building backed - in process of demolition ?).
"Boarder's fee note from the Fifties. Charges were £42 per term plus extras! Was it worth it? At that time, the fees at Eton were £600 per term".
From 1938 to 1955 the Inflation factor was 2.56. In 1938 the Boarding Fees were £30 per term plus extras, which makes the Fifties Fees a bit of a bargain !
Last edited by Danny42C; 28th Oct 2015 at 07:19. Reason: Tidy up a bit.
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Worth a look.
Recommend:
TV heads-up tonight 21:00: Quest TV, Mighty Planes - T-38 Talon
Rhino power
You can still get it on Quest on Demand.
D.
TV heads-up tonight 21:00: Quest TV, Mighty Planes - T-38 Talon
Rhino power
You can still get it on Quest on Demand.
D.
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Further to the obstacles the Polish pilots encountered ( and this applies to any pilot where English is not their first language, such as Czechs, Free French etc) was being shot down.
Dad mentioned that it was reemphasized many times at Bomber Command lectures that if their bomber was hit over the target, to make the utmost effort to put at least 25 miles between them and the target before baling out. The rationale was that the local populace might be a bit more forgiving; however that is not always the case as his experiences pointed out.
He did mention it was similar in the UK, that downed airmen were not always greeted with civility. In a few instances he was aware of the locals figured anyone shot down had to be the enemy, and if you couldn't speak fluent English, well that just confirmed it. It turned out they were RAF, but only after the fact was that discovered.
Dad mentioned that it was reemphasized many times at Bomber Command lectures that if their bomber was hit over the target, to make the utmost effort to put at least 25 miles between them and the target before baling out. The rationale was that the local populace might be a bit more forgiving; however that is not always the case as his experiences pointed out.
He did mention it was similar in the UK, that downed airmen were not always greeted with civility. In a few instances he was aware of the locals figured anyone shot down had to be the enemy, and if you couldn't speak fluent English, well that just confirmed it. It turned out they were RAF, but only after the fact was that discovered.
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jeffb,
(Your: "that downed airmen were not always greeted with civility"). I was told a story in ATC once, by an old pilot and former POW, that when they had to bale out over the outskirts of a German city they had just bombed, they landed well apart.
He dumped his parachute and made his way through the dark, empty streets, looking for someone in uniform to surrender to. On his way he passed a street lamp. Hanging from it was his Navigator
. Luckily he found a polizist before the next vigilantes found him !
Understandable in the circumstances, I suppose.
Danny.
(Your: "that downed airmen were not always greeted with civility"). I was told a story in ATC once, by an old pilot and former POW, that when they had to bale out over the outskirts of a German city they had just bombed, they landed well apart.
He dumped his parachute and made his way through the dark, empty streets, looking for someone in uniform to surrender to. On his way he passed a street lamp. Hanging from it was his Navigator
. Luckily he found a polizist before the next vigilantes found him !Understandable in the circumstances, I suppose.
Danny.
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Ouch. 
Understandable, I guess, but NOT a nice experience.
Understandable, I guess, but NOT a nice experience.
Danny: Entirely understandable, I'm sure. During the raids on Berlin in early 1944, there was a 10 Sqn crew shot down who considered themselves fortunate to have parachuted onto Tempelhof, where they were securely but safely arrested and sent down the interrogation/POW track. There are also plenty of stories of men en-route to POW camps being protected on trains etc by their German military escorts from very angry German civilians. And in the mid-1980s, I had dealings with a German 3-Star General who, after a couple of glasses, could become very bitter about the "RAF Terror Fliegers."
Such bitterness could manifest itself on either side. Gus Walker was senior RAF officer at a Cranwell Guest Night and sat alongside the guest of honour, a serving Luftwaffe General who had been of high rank in the Third Reich. Anyone who had the honour to encounter ACM Sir Augustus Walker GCB CBE DSO DSC AFC would attest to his affability and good manners. Those sitting close by reported that he scarcely said a word to the General throughout dinner...
Appeal for the airmen of Bomber Command in the Med
Those who feel, as I do, that Bomber Command's sacrifice and achievements have been repeatedly downplayed by our craven politicians will be interested in this petition originated by Mr Theo Eaves, who flew 35 sorties as a wireless operator with 142 Squadron when the squadron was based in Italy in 1944. He wishes to bring the following to your attention:
In 2013 the Government awarded the Bomber Command Clasp to aircrew in recognition of their bravery and service. But the airmen who took part in bombing raids over Italy and North Africa are not eligible for the award, which has been reserved for those who flew over Western Europe. Mr Eaves has now launched an online petition on the UK Government and Parliament website to gain recognition for RAF bomber crews who flew in the Mediterranean based squadrons of No.205 Group. 142 Squadron operated from North Africa and Italy between December 1942 and October 1944.
If you wish to support Mr. Eaves' campaign, the petition can be found here: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/107432
In 2013 the Government awarded the Bomber Command Clasp to aircrew in recognition of their bravery and service. But the airmen who took part in bombing raids over Italy and North Africa are not eligible for the award, which has been reserved for those who flew over Western Europe. Mr Eaves has now launched an online petition on the UK Government and Parliament website to gain recognition for RAF bomber crews who flew in the Mediterranean based squadrons of No.205 Group. 142 Squadron operated from North Africa and Italy between December 1942 and October 1944.
If you wish to support Mr. Eaves' campaign, the petition can be found here: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/107432
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Geriaviator,
"...which has been reserved for those who flew over Western Europe...."
Not exactly (I think), but for those who served in Bomber Command (which only held sway in the UK). After "D" day, I think bomber ops from the UK would be under the aegis of the Second TAF, ops from North Africa under First TAF.
(Wiki):
"Australian First Tactical Air Force
Desert Air Force (later known as the First Tactical Air Force) - North Africa and later Italy
RAF Second Tactical Air Force - Northern Europe
RAF Third Tactical Air Force - South Asia"
If the definition was so based, then our Liberators from Ratmalana (Ceylon), Third TAF, should also get a look-in. A bit pettifogging, I agree, but that's how the official mind works.
Not around in Europe at the time, so my opinion is of little value ! Don't think Mr. Eaves will have any success with his Petition as the putative recipients will have all died out now, and I don't think campaign medals are awarded posthumously. Worth a try though (so long as 3TAF is included !)
Danny.
"...which has been reserved for those who flew over Western Europe...."
Not exactly (I think), but for those who served in Bomber Command (which only held sway in the UK). After "D" day, I think bomber ops from the UK would be under the aegis of the Second TAF, ops from North Africa under First TAF.
(Wiki):
"Australian First Tactical Air Force
Desert Air Force (later known as the First Tactical Air Force) - North Africa and later Italy
RAF Second Tactical Air Force - Northern Europe
RAF Third Tactical Air Force - South Asia"
If the definition was so based, then our Liberators from Ratmalana (Ceylon), Third TAF, should also get a look-in. A bit pettifogging, I agree, but that's how the official mind works.
Not around in Europe at the time, so my opinion is of little value ! Don't think Mr. Eaves will have any success with his Petition as the putative recipients will have all died out now, and I don't think campaign medals are awarded posthumously. Worth a try though (so long as 3TAF is included !)
Danny.
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As prisoners of war, Dad recalled instances where the Germans terrified them, but also instances where they severely humiliated the Germans in their cat and mouse game . The Gestapo would conduct random searches for a variety of reason, but normally included a snap role call. As mentioned before, the POW,s were experts at fouling the count up, but sometimes they crossed the line. In one instance, after 3 hours, the Gestapo officer's patience ran out, and he threatened to shoot prisoners as a reprisal. You have to remember that this took place scant weeks after the massacre of 50 escapees from Luft 3 ( The Great Escape)so it was certainly taken seriously.
In the camp, there was a man called the Person of Confidence-essentially the CO. As the senior rank was WO, and there were several hundred of them in the camp, the position was filled by election! ( I will bet many wish they could have elected their CO,s!) Again, as has come up time and again, The Right Man, Right Time, Right Place was in the form of Sgt Dixie Deans, RAF, who earned the respect of both the POW,s and the Germans. At a later date, he was instrumental in saving the lives of many POw,s by sourcing and arranging for the delivery of Red Cross food parcels to the men( who were, by this time literally starving). After the friendly fire incident at Griesse, he persuaded the German CO to let him cross into Allied lines to inform them of the POW,s whereabouts, before returning to German captivity.
In this instance, Deans ordered the prisoners to form up, the count tallied correct, and the situation was defused.
In the second incident, some prisoners were paraded. I am not sure if they were from the general population, or the RCAF was singled out, as a Gestapo officer came in, surrounded the prisoners with fully armed troops, and proceeded to threaten to shoot the prisoners. This was in retaliation for a perceived wrongdoing to German POW,s incarcerated in Canada. For 12 hours Dad and others has to face this officers bizarre rants, and the troops threatening gestures before the Germans grew tired and felt they had made a point, so they left as abruptly as they arrived.
Later I will relate 2 instances where the POW,s embarrassed the German; in one case by a single prisoner, the other where Dad participated.
In the camp, there was a man called the Person of Confidence-essentially the CO. As the senior rank was WO, and there were several hundred of them in the camp, the position was filled by election! ( I will bet many wish they could have elected their CO,s!) Again, as has come up time and again, The Right Man, Right Time, Right Place was in the form of Sgt Dixie Deans, RAF, who earned the respect of both the POW,s and the Germans. At a later date, he was instrumental in saving the lives of many POw,s by sourcing and arranging for the delivery of Red Cross food parcels to the men( who were, by this time literally starving). After the friendly fire incident at Griesse, he persuaded the German CO to let him cross into Allied lines to inform them of the POW,s whereabouts, before returning to German captivity.
In this instance, Deans ordered the prisoners to form up, the count tallied correct, and the situation was defused.
In the second incident, some prisoners were paraded. I am not sure if they were from the general population, or the RCAF was singled out, as a Gestapo officer came in, surrounded the prisoners with fully armed troops, and proceeded to threaten to shoot the prisoners. This was in retaliation for a perceived wrongdoing to German POW,s incarcerated in Canada. For 12 hours Dad and others has to face this officers bizarre rants, and the troops threatening gestures before the Germans grew tired and felt they had made a point, so they left as abruptly as they arrived.
Later I will relate 2 instances where the POW,s embarrassed the German; in one case by a single prisoner, the other where Dad participated.
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jeffb,
There were many cases of this kind reported after the war, and in almost every instance the Gestapo were involved. Some time back I've told of a story (believed to be true), where the officers of a Jagdgeschwader in southern Germany, hearing that a group of RAF prisoners passing nearby were destined to be handed over for imprisonment to a Gestapo unit, intervened and forced the Gestapo officer in charge, at pistol point, to release the prisoners to them.
They then took them back to their squadron, gave them a decent meal, and made sure they went on to a proper POW Camp. It pays dividends: more flies are caught by honey than by vinegar (as every interrogator knows). And as Kipling put it a century ago:
Danny.
There were many cases of this kind reported after the war, and in almost every instance the Gestapo were involved. Some time back I've told of a story (believed to be true), where the officers of a Jagdgeschwader in southern Germany, hearing that a group of RAF prisoners passing nearby were destined to be handed over for imprisonment to a Gestapo unit, intervened and forced the Gestapo officer in charge, at pistol point, to release the prisoners to them.
They then took them back to their squadron, gave them a decent meal, and made sure they went on to a proper POW Camp. It pays dividends: more flies are caught by honey than by vinegar (as every interrogator knows). And as Kipling put it a century ago:
"Where is the sense of 'ating those
'Oom you are paid to kill ?"
'Oom you are paid to kill ?"
Danny.