Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
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Chugalug,
Ref my EDIT on my #7299 last night:
"(This last time I let the video run on after the VV Section. What a feast of IAF and PAF footage ! Fareastdriver will be as fascinated as I was with the ending sequences of the aerobatic helicopter (but perhaps he's seen it before). I was stunned !".
Tried now to get back for another look - and it's gone !! (all "the feast" after the 6.14 of the 8 Sqn video, that is, but a whole series of other flying material after it instead).
Please try it, and see what you can get (it beats me) and let me know.
Danny
Ref my EDIT on my #7299 last night:
"(This last time I let the video run on after the VV Section. What a feast of IAF and PAF footage ! Fareastdriver will be as fascinated as I was with the ending sequences of the aerobatic helicopter (but perhaps he's seen it before). I was stunned !".
Tried now to get back for another look - and it's gone !! (all "the feast" after the 6.14 of the 8 Sqn video, that is, but a whole series of other flying material after it instead).
Please try it, and see what you can get (it beats me) and let me know.
Danny
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Fareastdriver,
What a story yours has been ! (for I take it, the combination of anno domini and your cataracts (join the club !) must spell the end of your life in the skies - at least in the driving seat ! And I'm sure I speak for all of us in saying a sincere "Thanks" for so entertainingly recording it for one past generation (mine) and for the present and all future ones for whom this matchless Thread of Cliff's will form such a priceless archive.
I must say I feel a tinge of regret when any good thing comes to an end. This cavil doesn't affect that at all; but from an old-timer's viewpoint, it seems a pity that most of the old place names we knew in boyhood have been given up without a murmer of protest. Once it was Bombay and Peking, Madras and Canton and Formosa and Ceylon. Now we must say "Mumbai" and "Beijing", "Chennai" and "Guangdong" and "Taiwan and "SriLanka" (was poor Delhi hiding behind the sofa when the new names were being given out ?)
As I said some time ago: "The good folk of Bombay can call it what they like in Marathi, why should it trouble them what we call it in English ?" The French say "Aix-la-Chapelle", the Germans "Aachen", it's the same place, but nobody bothers. We once lived in Cologne for a while, the Germans around us lived in Köln, we were all quie happy with that.
The most ridiculous example was when "Calcutta" became "Kolkata". Phonetically, it's almost the same word, there was no need for it (except for a perceived need to change for its own sake).
Rant over, now this is long enough (more comment and questions soon).
Cheers, Danny.
What a story yours has been ! (for I take it, the combination of anno domini and your cataracts (join the club !) must spell the end of your life in the skies - at least in the driving seat ! And I'm sure I speak for all of us in saying a sincere "Thanks" for so entertainingly recording it for one past generation (mine) and for the present and all future ones for whom this matchless Thread of Cliff's will form such a priceless archive.
I must say I feel a tinge of regret when any good thing comes to an end. This cavil doesn't affect that at all; but from an old-timer's viewpoint, it seems a pity that most of the old place names we knew in boyhood have been given up without a murmer of protest. Once it was Bombay and Peking, Madras and Canton and Formosa and Ceylon. Now we must say "Mumbai" and "Beijing", "Chennai" and "Guangdong" and "Taiwan and "SriLanka" (was poor Delhi hiding behind the sofa when the new names were being given out ?)
As I said some time ago: "The good folk of Bombay can call it what they like in Marathi, why should it trouble them what we call it in English ?" The French say "Aix-la-Chapelle", the Germans "Aachen", it's the same place, but nobody bothers. We once lived in Cologne for a while, the Germans around us lived in Köln, we were all quie happy with that.
The most ridiculous example was when "Calcutta" became "Kolkata". Phonetically, it's almost the same word, there was no need for it (except for a perceived need to change for its own sake).
Rant over, now this is long enough (more comment and questions soon).
Cheers, Danny.
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Chugalug,
Reverting to the 8 (IAF) Sqn YouTube, here are some general comments which apply as far as 2.50 into the 6.14 of it.
1. What on Earth has this to do with an "Australian War Memorial FO 2561" ? The material has almost certainly come originally from Bharat Rakshak website: they have a lot about 8 Sqn in it.
2. Where and when was this taken ? There are no white faces, we "pressed men" from the four RAF Sqns don't appear anywhere. My guess is at their last station before we teamed up with them in Chaara, W. Bengal (24.8.43. in my log, although I didn't fly with them (non-op) until 29.11.43 - you'll recall that we were busy on the ground, settling-in, then compass-swinging and belting-up in that month).
It doesn't look anything like Peshawar (had the VV OTU even started up yet ?) Bt-Rk says they were at Paphamau (Allahabad), in Uttar Pradesh. This is approx 500 mi NE from Calcutta, and a further 400 mi NE to Delhi. I have never known such a huge open landing area as appears here, certainly not in W. or E. Bengal (now Bangladesh) or in Burma.
It is certainly all training in these first few minutes, the only bomb (500lb) looks funny (more later), some a/c have 250lb racks underwing but no bombs, (they would have been about 1,000 milles away from the action in any case). Nor are there any 11˝ lb (training) bombracks.
The devil is in the detail ! Enough for now ! More soon.
Cheers, Danny.
Reverting to the 8 (IAF) Sqn YouTube, here are some general comments which apply as far as 2.50 into the 6.14 of it.
1. What on Earth has this to do with an "Australian War Memorial FO 2561" ? The material has almost certainly come originally from Bharat Rakshak website: they have a lot about 8 Sqn in it.
2. Where and when was this taken ? There are no white faces, we "pressed men" from the four RAF Sqns don't appear anywhere. My guess is at their last station before we teamed up with them in Chaara, W. Bengal (24.8.43. in my log, although I didn't fly with them (non-op) until 29.11.43 - you'll recall that we were busy on the ground, settling-in, then compass-swinging and belting-up in that month).
It doesn't look anything like Peshawar (had the VV OTU even started up yet ?) Bt-Rk says they were at Paphamau (Allahabad), in Uttar Pradesh. This is approx 500 mi NE from Calcutta, and a further 400 mi NE to Delhi. I have never known such a huge open landing area as appears here, certainly not in W. or E. Bengal (now Bangladesh) or in Burma.
It is certainly all training in these first few minutes, the only bomb (500lb) looks funny (more later), some a/c have 250lb racks underwing but no bombs, (they would have been about 1,000 milles away from the action in any case). Nor are there any 11˝ lb (training) bombracks.
The devil is in the detail ! Enough for now ! More soon.
Cheers, Danny.
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Apologies Danny
Apologies Danny
I had hoped to be able to post a photo of 'Spitfires over Leeming' but 'finger trouble with my daughters camera prevented this
Due time pressures they just flew in from a South Easterly direction (Linton & York) then headed NE to Goosepool
See Spitfires fly over Teesside as part of RAF Battle of Britain Memorial Flight - Gazette Live
PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)
I had hoped to be able to post a photo of 'Spitfires over Leeming' but 'finger trouble with my daughters camera prevented this
Due time pressures they just flew in from a South Easterly direction (Linton & York) then headed NE to Goosepool
See Spitfires fly over Teesside as part of RAF Battle of Britain Memorial Flight - Gazette Live
PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)
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Armourer ? We have need of thee !
EDIT: This link was Posted on "EZ999" Thread by Chugalug, to whom we all owe our thanks for it.
New readers, this is what we're talking about here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8RqlK1d1_k
D.
------------------------------------------------------
Chugalug,
Now from the general to the particular:
0.21
What are these two armourers doing on the wing ? - all they seem to have is a length of empty cottton ammo belting - and in any case we used spring steel clips, not cotton belts ? (as I know to my cost !)
0.22
At first glance, looks like a single gun, and I thought "0.50" for a moment or two, before realising that it's far too small - of course we're looking side-on at a twin 0.303 (you can just see the flash eliminators on the ends - all our guns had them, but I don't think any of the 0.300s did).
But why is this chap stripping his gun down in situ, instead of taking it to the Armoury and putting it on the bench ? (for surely you had to take the block out first to remove the barrel ?) I should know, but at ITW I only had a obsolete Vickers "K" gun to take to bits, and then try to put together again. I never even saw a Browning, as they were all needed in service. And in practice we left all that side of the business to our AGs and the Armourers. All we had to worry about was: would it fire when we pressed the button, or not ? We just flew the aeroplane - and that could be trouble enough.
Are there any (ex) Armourers in the House ? Please come in !
0.37
Now we're really confused. This 500lb GP bomb clearly has the tail twin wing "butterfly" on the end (look in the cylindrical "fin" - btw, these sheet metal "click-on" fins came in a strong fibre- board protective container, which in turn became a potential bar stool). They were only put on the bomb itself at the last moment before bombing-up.
But the "butterfly" was the safety device for the tail fuse (on release, the airflow would spin them away off their loose thread and render the fuse "live" by exposing the detonator). Therefore the tail fuse is in this bomb. These little bits of light metal sometimes speared into the lower wing surface or the flaps after release - no problem, but a nuisance to the riggers, who had to dig them out and patch the little shallow holes they left.
Now look at the nose. There should be either a ring-bolt in (for handling in transit). Or, before use, this is removed, the nose fuse goes in and made safe by another loosely screwed-on cap which has angled vanes machined round the rim, this works the same way as the tail, once off the firing pin and the detonator are in business.
So what have we here ? There's no vaned cap - it's just a plug with what looks like a screwdriver slot in it for removal (look at your car battery). So there's no fuse in the nose ! Make sense of that if you can.
You'll all be pleased to know that there is still more on this bomb to come,
but this is enough for one Post.
Cheers, Danny.
PS: pzu,
Around teatime daughter came in, said, "Dad", there's a Spitfire just flying overhead".
It so happened that a few seconds earlier something very fast and powerful had come out of the N. York Moors LL area, and was climbing northbound in reheat, so that Danny Mansion was shaking. (This used to happen a lot, but less frequently in recent days).
"Rubbish", said Daddy, "that's no Spitfire ! - that's a chap in a jet, giving it the welly".
Ah, well.
You can't win 'em all (we don't take the Gazette).
Thanks for the "Head-Up" just the same !
D.
New readers, this is what we're talking about here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8RqlK1d1_k
D.
------------------------------------------------------
Chugalug,
Now from the general to the particular:
0.21
What are these two armourers doing on the wing ? - all they seem to have is a length of empty cottton ammo belting - and in any case we used spring steel clips, not cotton belts ? (as I know to my cost !)
0.22
At first glance, looks like a single gun, and I thought "0.50" for a moment or two, before realising that it's far too small - of course we're looking side-on at a twin 0.303 (you can just see the flash eliminators on the ends - all our guns had them, but I don't think any of the 0.300s did).
But why is this chap stripping his gun down in situ, instead of taking it to the Armoury and putting it on the bench ? (for surely you had to take the block out first to remove the barrel ?) I should know, but at ITW I only had a obsolete Vickers "K" gun to take to bits, and then try to put together again. I never even saw a Browning, as they were all needed in service. And in practice we left all that side of the business to our AGs and the Armourers. All we had to worry about was: would it fire when we pressed the button, or not ? We just flew the aeroplane - and that could be trouble enough.
Are there any (ex) Armourers in the House ? Please come in !
0.37
Now we're really confused. This 500lb GP bomb clearly has the tail twin wing "butterfly" on the end (look in the cylindrical "fin" - btw, these sheet metal "click-on" fins came in a strong fibre- board protective container, which in turn became a potential bar stool). They were only put on the bomb itself at the last moment before bombing-up.
But the "butterfly" was the safety device for the tail fuse (on release, the airflow would spin them away off their loose thread and render the fuse "live" by exposing the detonator). Therefore the tail fuse is in this bomb. These little bits of light metal sometimes speared into the lower wing surface or the flaps after release - no problem, but a nuisance to the riggers, who had to dig them out and patch the little shallow holes they left.
Now look at the nose. There should be either a ring-bolt in (for handling in transit). Or, before use, this is removed, the nose fuse goes in and made safe by another loosely screwed-on cap which has angled vanes machined round the rim, this works the same way as the tail, once off the firing pin and the detonator are in business.
So what have we here ? There's no vaned cap - it's just a plug with what looks like a screwdriver slot in it for removal (look at your car battery). So there's no fuse in the nose ! Make sense of that if you can.
You'll all be pleased to know that there is still more on this bomb to come,
but this is enough for one Post.Cheers, Danny.
PS: pzu,
Around teatime daughter came in, said, "Dad", there's a Spitfire just flying overhead".
It so happened that a few seconds earlier something very fast and powerful had come out of the N. York Moors LL area, and was climbing northbound in reheat, so that Danny Mansion was shaking. (This used to happen a lot, but less frequently in recent days).
"Rubbish", said Daddy, "that's no Spitfire ! - that's a chap in a jet, giving it the welly".
Ah, well.
You can't win 'em all (we don't take the Gazette).Thanks for the "Head-Up" just the same !
D.
Last edited by Danny42C; 14th Aug 2015 at 02:18. Reason: Addn.
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A picture really does speak a thousand words. Respect to the 48th Fighter Wing Commander and Coningsby Stn Cdr for taking the time to honour this great man!
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...06281193_o.jpg
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...06281193_o.jpg
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Armourer ? We have need of thee !
It wasn't an empty threat - here we go again !
Possibility: this is just a dummy bomb in training somewhere, no sign of any other military hardware.
Note trunnion band on bomb: the trunnions engage with the forks you see in the bomb bay. These forks are adjusted onto the trunnions by a "turnbuckle" on the prongs. When bomb drops, forks throw bomb out clear of aircraft (otherwise [in vertical dive] may fall "live" onto front bulkhead, or into prop - either way, Bad Idea).
Ju 87 "Stuka" had same arrangement for the external bomb, same reason.
2.08
This is the hard way for pilot to do it (a/c may have been hours in the sun and hot as Hell). Macaque at 3.27 has right idea (more on him later), but too small to make the next jump onto wing.
Note much smaller white roundel centre in comparison with RAAF ones. And the last (curved) section of perspex over gunner's cockpit hasn't been chucked out yet (they'll learn !)
2.31
Gunner checks "Full and Free movement" (good demo of the rear gun mountings - they were on a pillar on a universal joint at the bottom, so could wobble about quite a bit even with restraining links. Now imagine what it would be like when the Oscars (or [hope not] Kawanishi N1K Kyofu later) are coming in and your Box-of-Six VV is making elephantine attempts to corkscew, and your pilot is slipping and skidding all over the place in his efforts to stay in position ! And remember there's nothing to stop you from shooting your own tail off.
Obvious answer: scatter, dive for the deck and run home through the treetops as fast as you can. Ce n'était pas magnifique, mais c'était la guerre ! (Just as well it never happened).
Note Flash Eliminators on muzzles and the metal clips I'll never forget.
2.37
Rather better built than normal "basha" Briefing Room (?). A Sikh always wears the turban. One clued-up chap has an Aussie Bush Hat, the others will soon be buying replacement Caps SD.
Some are carrying side arms, but think it more for show than operational (or are they just holsters - can't see any lanyards).
2.43
A ground radio truck - ATC ? - if so, the only ATC there ever was in India or Burma in my time.
2.49
It was unusual to paint bomblets (line-shooting ?) - can't make out nose art above (in the Vlad footage, there is a "Hyderabad Tiger" on an IAF VV pulling away from dispersal in a circle that size of picture).
2.55 Free bananas on tap ad lib (Fox 3 to note !)
3.27
Macaque shows how to do it - but can't manage the last bit - Waddling around wearing pilot 'chute was hot and awkward; our technique was: carry your 'chute out onto the wing, then right foot on wheel, left foot on stirrup, scramble up on top, put 'chute into seat, climb in and buckle on in comfort.
3.48
Persistence pays !- backseat man stands (WTF ?) to see what pilot is doing (too rich), donk fires at last and he bobs down. It was probably bad practice to hold down both "Energise" and "Engage" inertia starter switches together (to keep cranking), but when the rest of your Flight is waiting for you to start so's you can pull out onto taxiway in proper order, that's what you do.
Of course one of the first things when you've got it going is to check all hydraulics, but why would you leave the d/brakes out ? There's always the chance that you'd forget and try to take off - but you'd only do that once ! (Vlad shows another one doing exactly the same).
Checked my log book for EZ971 - but never flew it.
4.14
Now this is all Vlad footage. Macaque has got up there at last and gambolling all over the aircraft. Gunner will be lucky if he doesn't get bitten. But now we have rough dates. Sqn Ldr Ira Sutherland (RNZAF) took over from Sqn Ldr Prasad in Feb '44. Oddly I don't remember any pet monkey at all. Boss Sutherland did not strike me as a man who would take much interest in small furry things (except in curries). But I was away from end of February till early June, so the little animal might well have come and gone in that time
5.15
Now we go back to the "wide open space" I mentioned at the start. It is probably Paphamau. Fine shots of VVs landing etc. Note long take off runs (and these aircraft would be at least 2,000 lb lighter than in 'op' trim), and the choking dust in the dry season.
And that's about it. Thanks, Chugalug, for this link which has given us so much interest. Now if you (or anyone else) wants a real hoot, run the little (6.31 on side show) computer-generated offering. The compiler's idea of a VV pilot's instrument panel recalls exactly your comment on your soi-disant "Stearman Panel" ("All the right instruments - but not necessarily in the right order !") This is a real dog's dinner, and the "designer" who has obviously taken immense pains to get the detail right, has based it on the Narellan cockpit. For what else could he find to rely on ? And he's not the only one to have been "led up the Garden Path" in this way. No less than an A.P. (a Pilot's Notes) has fallen into the same trap.
There is a Post to be written about that and I may get round to it.
Cheers, Danny.
Gaudeamus igitur, Iuvenes eramus ! VJ Day today ! Break out the Guinness and make Wassail !
Possibility: this is just a dummy bomb in training somewhere, no sign of any other military hardware.
Note trunnion band on bomb: the trunnions engage with the forks you see in the bomb bay. These forks are adjusted onto the trunnions by a "turnbuckle" on the prongs. When bomb drops, forks throw bomb out clear of aircraft (otherwise [in vertical dive] may fall "live" onto front bulkhead, or into prop - either way, Bad Idea).
Ju 87 "Stuka" had same arrangement for the external bomb, same reason.
2.08
This is the hard way for pilot to do it (a/c may have been hours in the sun and hot as Hell). Macaque at 3.27 has right idea (more on him later), but too small to make the next jump onto wing.
Note much smaller white roundel centre in comparison with RAAF ones. And the last (curved) section of perspex over gunner's cockpit hasn't been chucked out yet (they'll learn !)
2.31
Gunner checks "Full and Free movement" (good demo of the rear gun mountings - they were on a pillar on a universal joint at the bottom, so could wobble about quite a bit even with restraining links. Now imagine what it would be like when the Oscars (or [hope not] Kawanishi N1K Kyofu later) are coming in and your Box-of-Six VV is making elephantine attempts to corkscew, and your pilot is slipping and skidding all over the place in his efforts to stay in position ! And remember there's nothing to stop you from shooting your own tail off.
Obvious answer: scatter, dive for the deck and run home through the treetops as fast as you can. Ce n'était pas magnifique, mais c'était la guerre ! (Just as well it never happened).
Note Flash Eliminators on muzzles and the metal clips I'll never forget.
2.37
Rather better built than normal "basha" Briefing Room (?). A Sikh always wears the turban. One clued-up chap has an Aussie Bush Hat, the others will soon be buying replacement Caps SD.
Some are carrying side arms, but think it more for show than operational (or are they just holsters - can't see any lanyards).
2.43
A ground radio truck - ATC ? - if so, the only ATC there ever was in India or Burma in my time.
2.49
It was unusual to paint bomblets (line-shooting ?) - can't make out nose art above (in the Vlad footage, there is a "Hyderabad Tiger" on an IAF VV pulling away from dispersal in a circle that size of picture).
2.55 Free bananas on tap ad lib (Fox 3 to note !)
3.27
Macaque shows how to do it - but can't manage the last bit - Waddling around wearing pilot 'chute was hot and awkward; our technique was: carry your 'chute out onto the wing, then right foot on wheel, left foot on stirrup, scramble up on top, put 'chute into seat, climb in and buckle on in comfort.
3.48
Persistence pays !- backseat man stands (WTF ?) to see what pilot is doing (too rich), donk fires at last and he bobs down. It was probably bad practice to hold down both "Energise" and "Engage" inertia starter switches together (to keep cranking), but when the rest of your Flight is waiting for you to start so's you can pull out onto taxiway in proper order, that's what you do.
Of course one of the first things when you've got it going is to check all hydraulics, but why would you leave the d/brakes out ? There's always the chance that you'd forget and try to take off - but you'd only do that once ! (Vlad shows another one doing exactly the same).
Checked my log book for EZ971 - but never flew it.
4.14
Now this is all Vlad footage. Macaque has got up there at last and gambolling all over the aircraft. Gunner will be lucky if he doesn't get bitten. But now we have rough dates. Sqn Ldr Ira Sutherland (RNZAF) took over from Sqn Ldr Prasad in Feb '44. Oddly I don't remember any pet monkey at all. Boss Sutherland did not strike me as a man who would take much interest in small furry things (except in curries). But I was away from end of February till early June, so the little animal might well have come and gone in that time
5.15
Now we go back to the "wide open space" I mentioned at the start. It is probably Paphamau. Fine shots of VVs landing etc. Note long take off runs (and these aircraft would be at least 2,000 lb lighter than in 'op' trim), and the choking dust in the dry season.
And that's about it. Thanks, Chugalug, for this link which has given us so much interest. Now if you (or anyone else) wants a real hoot, run the little (6.31 on side show) computer-generated offering. The compiler's idea of a VV pilot's instrument panel recalls exactly your comment on your soi-disant "Stearman Panel" ("All the right instruments - but not necessarily in the right order !") This is a real dog's dinner, and the "designer" who has obviously taken immense pains to get the detail right, has based it on the Narellan cockpit. For what else could he find to rely on ? And he's not the only one to have been "led up the Garden Path" in this way. No less than an A.P. (a Pilot's Notes) has fallen into the same trap.
There is a Post to be written about that and I may get round to it.
Cheers, Danny.
Gaudeamus igitur, Iuvenes eramus ! VJ Day today ! Break out the Guinness and make Wassail !
Last edited by Danny42C; 15th Aug 2015 at 03:07. Reason: Typos
Danny, I had not anticipated for a moment that my idle posting/plagiarising of a YouTube video on the EZ999 thread would have given you so much to consider and question. Even less did I realise that the whole shebang had decamped to this thread (though in truth here is where it belongs). So apologies all round for my lack of response.
Having said that, I hope that your questions are not directed at me, for the little I know of the Vengeance, and the Squadrons that flew them, I have all learned from you! It seems to me that you suspect this video to be a bit of a ringer, ie it does not hold true as to what it purports to represent, which is to show an operational squadron at work. My thoughts are much the same, that there is a lot of "playing to the camera", work that would have been done in various workshops by armourers, radio fitters, etc is being done on the aircraft.
Could this be a case of a limited amount of film stock, the limited time to shoot it, and an intention to get everyone (including the monkey) in on the act? A sort of dumbed down version of the famous 'day in the life of Hemswell' video? Just a thought...
Oh, just to add, I am delighted that EZ999 is now given the Danny "Seal of Approval", that the Mark that did the real war work is indeed in preservation. If our long peregrination has achieved aught else, it has at least shone a light onto this RAF/RAAF/IAF "Stuka" and that it did do what it said on the tin, limited in time and place though that might have been.
Having said that, I hope that your questions are not directed at me, for the little I know of the Vengeance, and the Squadrons that flew them, I have all learned from you! It seems to me that you suspect this video to be a bit of a ringer, ie it does not hold true as to what it purports to represent, which is to show an operational squadron at work. My thoughts are much the same, that there is a lot of "playing to the camera", work that would have been done in various workshops by armourers, radio fitters, etc is being done on the aircraft.
Could this be a case of a limited amount of film stock, the limited time to shoot it, and an intention to get everyone (including the monkey) in on the act? A sort of dumbed down version of the famous 'day in the life of Hemswell' video? Just a thought...
Oh, just to add, I am delighted that EZ999 is now given the Danny "Seal of Approval", that the Mark that did the real war work is indeed in preservation. If our long peregrination has achieved aught else, it has at least shone a light onto this RAF/RAAF/IAF "Stuka" and that it did do what it said on the tin, limited in time and place though that might have been.
Last edited by Chugalug2; 16th Aug 2015 at 11:41. Reason: Hooray for EZ999!
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The Plot Thickens.
Chugalug,
No, my questions were purely rhetorical (the beauty of this Thread is that there's always the chance of finding someone who really knows the answer). I agree that this looks like some home cameraman's (illicit) wartime record, in the form of a montage of his training days, for private viewing. I never saw an official RAF film camera crew all the time I was out there. Post-war, it probably first passed to Bharat Rakshak and has now surfaced 70+ years after the event. I never thought that any cine film like this even existed (until I found it here).
Now we can lay EZ999 down to rest, for the story is becoming clearer by the day. As I see it, this A-31 (I'm going to use US terms from now on - as we get tangled up in all our Marks) was probably given to the Technical College intact. Specifically, it would have had an A-31 cockpit and panel, and a twin-Browning in the rear. Then the wreckers (sorry, Tech students) got at it - and really went to town !
Away went the guns (where ?), someone fancied the A-31 pilot's panel and had that away, too. In return they put in all sorts of wonderful things (do you remember those coloured signal lights ** under a wing ? - which never flew again anyway - and an optical gunsight ##). Now they (or Harold Thomas when he found it) needed a replacement panel. They couldn't find an A-31 panel, but managed to get hold of an A-35 one (I can't be sure even about that, it might be a complete bodge-up from Lord knows where, bearing no relation to an A-35 or anything else).
Notes:
** mmitch link in 132/2638
## What on earth for ? As I've said, the idea of air combat in a VV would make a cat laugh: you could strafe with them, I suppose, but that task was better left to the more agile aircraft specialised in the job (in our case, the Hurricane IIC and Beaufighter). But the designer of the VV "animation" (the "6.31" thumbnail on the side of the YouTube under discussion) has bought into the idea all right !
Likewise, it needed rear gun(s) to go on display. They can't find any twin 0.300/.303s, but here's an old single 0.50 - stick that in, it'll do (who'll know the difference ?). So the matter rested, and everybody was happy - until some pesky folk on PPRuNE come along and say "Hey-oop something's not right here !"
Then were we all "up the creek without a paddle", for the plain fact seems to be that there are no genuine photographs of the pilot's panel in an A-31 or an A-35 anywhere. Anyone who wants one has to fall back on the "iffy" thing at Narellan. Peter C. Smith uses a photograph of it on Page 3, and a carefully detailed drawing of the same thing appears as the Appendix 5 to his "Vengeance!" - and he would certainly have put other photographs in if he could have found any.
Somewhere on this Thread (around page 131) there is a Post that shows (from a Link ?) an illustration (from a sketchy Pilot's Notes - pukka, has an A.P. number) of the front cockpit of an A-35 (maybe intended for the TT conversions in the UK ?). I know it's in here somewhere, for I've seen it . Can I find it now ? I can not.
Whatever, they have a photograph. Guess what ? (our old pal, again, of course). They have carefully overlaid it (as they do with all PNs) with traces back to identify each item. At least one defeated them: two levers in a quadrant on the right side, roughly opposite to the u/c and flap on the left.
They don't know what these are, I suppose - and I have no idea what they might be. There are other items that have foxed them, but I can't remember now. The trouble is: I can't recall exactly what the A-31 panels looked like (it's been a long time !) but they were sensibly laid out, with the flight instruments laid in the middle in strict RAF "Sperry Panel" order, all the engine clocks on the right and the others on the left, odds like the ammeter and fuel and hydraulic power along the bottom. The switch gear was below.
I've never set eyes on an A-35, so I don't know what it ought to look like, but I bet it was nothing like what's in EZ999 now !
Hipper 129/2579 (May, 2012) may be of interest - but I'm not buying any CDs !
Danny.
No, my questions were purely rhetorical (the beauty of this Thread is that there's always the chance of finding someone who really knows the answer). I agree that this looks like some home cameraman's (illicit) wartime record, in the form of a montage of his training days, for private viewing. I never saw an official RAF film camera crew all the time I was out there. Post-war, it probably first passed to Bharat Rakshak and has now surfaced 70+ years after the event. I never thought that any cine film like this even existed (until I found it here).
Now we can lay EZ999 down to rest, for the story is becoming clearer by the day. As I see it, this A-31 (I'm going to use US terms from now on - as we get tangled up in all our Marks) was probably given to the Technical College intact. Specifically, it would have had an A-31 cockpit and panel, and a twin-Browning in the rear. Then the wreckers (sorry, Tech students) got at it - and really went to town !
Away went the guns (where ?), someone fancied the A-31 pilot's panel and had that away, too. In return they put in all sorts of wonderful things (do you remember those coloured signal lights ** under a wing ? - which never flew again anyway - and an optical gunsight ##). Now they (or Harold Thomas when he found it) needed a replacement panel. They couldn't find an A-31 panel, but managed to get hold of an A-35 one (I can't be sure even about that, it might be a complete bodge-up from Lord knows where, bearing no relation to an A-35 or anything else).
Notes:
** mmitch link in 132/2638
## What on earth for ? As I've said, the idea of air combat in a VV would make a cat laugh: you could strafe with them, I suppose, but that task was better left to the more agile aircraft specialised in the job (in our case, the Hurricane IIC and Beaufighter). But the designer of the VV "animation" (the "6.31" thumbnail on the side of the YouTube under discussion) has bought into the idea all right !
Likewise, it needed rear gun(s) to go on display. They can't find any twin 0.300/.303s, but here's an old single 0.50 - stick that in, it'll do (who'll know the difference ?). So the matter rested, and everybody was happy - until some pesky folk on PPRuNE come along and say "Hey-oop something's not right here !"
Then were we all "up the creek without a paddle", for the plain fact seems to be that there are no genuine photographs of the pilot's panel in an A-31 or an A-35 anywhere. Anyone who wants one has to fall back on the "iffy" thing at Narellan. Peter C. Smith uses a photograph of it on Page 3, and a carefully detailed drawing of the same thing appears as the Appendix 5 to his "Vengeance!" - and he would certainly have put other photographs in if he could have found any.
Somewhere on this Thread (around page 131) there is a Post that shows (from a Link ?) an illustration (from a sketchy Pilot's Notes - pukka, has an A.P. number) of the front cockpit of an A-35 (maybe intended for the TT conversions in the UK ?). I know it's in here somewhere, for I've seen it . Can I find it now ? I can not.
Whatever, they have a photograph. Guess what ? (our old pal, again, of course). They have carefully overlaid it (as they do with all PNs) with traces back to identify each item. At least one defeated them: two levers in a quadrant on the right side, roughly opposite to the u/c and flap on the left.
They don't know what these are, I suppose - and I have no idea what they might be. There are other items that have foxed them, but I can't remember now. The trouble is: I can't recall exactly what the A-31 panels looked like (it's been a long time !) but they were sensibly laid out, with the flight instruments laid in the middle in strict RAF "Sperry Panel" order, all the engine clocks on the right and the others on the left, odds like the ammeter and fuel and hydraulic power along the bottom. The switch gear was below.
I've never set eyes on an A-35, so I don't know what it ought to look like, but I bet it was nothing like what's in EZ999 now !
Hipper 129/2579 (May, 2012) may be of interest - but I'm not buying any CDs !
Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 17th Aug 2015 at 06:55. Reason: Awkward wording.
Danny:-
I suspect that the link that you are looking for was posted by me, Danny. I did so for a copy of AP 2024D Vengeance MkIV "Target Tower" Pilots Notes on the Avialogs site. You can "thumb through" the notes online, but to download the .pdf file it requires a paid subscription I'm afraid.
No illustrations I'm afraid, just "Roneo'd" text, but that might include some useful information:-
A.P. 2024D Pilot's Notes for Vengeance IV Target Tower - 2nd Edition
No other A-31 or A-35 literature that I can find, but the library is always being added to at Avialogs:-
Avialogs: Aviation E-Library and more
Edited to add that I haven't found any links to any genuine Vengeance Instrument Panel illustrations either, but Hipper's post #2579/p129 does have links for purchasing a CD from NZ with various Vengeance docs (including the same MKIV Pilots Notes):-
Flight Manuals on CD - Vultee A-35 Vengeance
Somewhere on this Thread (around page 131) there is a Post that shows (from a Link ?) an illustration (from a sketchy Pilot's Notes - pukka, has an A.P. number) of the front cockpit of an A-35 (maybe intended for the TT conversions in the UK ?). I know it's in here somewhere, for I've seen it . Can I find it now ? I can not.
No illustrations I'm afraid, just "Roneo'd" text, but that might include some useful information:-
A.P. 2024D Pilot's Notes for Vengeance IV Target Tower - 2nd Edition
No other A-31 or A-35 literature that I can find, but the library is always being added to at Avialogs:-
Avialogs: Aviation E-Library and more
Edited to add that I haven't found any links to any genuine Vengeance Instrument Panel illustrations either, but Hipper's post #2579/p129 does have links for purchasing a CD from NZ with various Vengeance docs (including the same MKIV Pilots Notes):-
Flight Manuals on CD - Vultee A-35 Vengeance
Last edited by Chugalug2; 17th Aug 2015 at 09:34. Reason: Link from Hipper's post
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(In Draft on NotePad 17.8.15.)
Chugalug,
Many thanks for the information. I remembered that Avialogs had come into the story in some way and have sent a message on their website system, asking what they've got on the A-31 and A-35. Their Website says they'll "send me an email in a few days". Will wait in hope............
This came today:
Reply: 17.8.15. 1546
Benoit de Mulder,
"Hi,
The Pilot's notes is available here:
http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/aircraft/usa/vultee/a-35vengeance/a-p-2024d-pilot-s-notes-for-vengeance-iv-target-tower-2nd-edition.html
You can read it online (like all avialogs manuals) but you can not download it without a subscription.
Best regards, Benoit"
Googled it up, but got no further than a pic of an A-35 and the cover of the PN. (Probably me doing something wrong !).
Will resume hunt through back Posts tomorrow.
Danny.
Chugalug,
Many thanks for the information. I remembered that Avialogs had come into the story in some way and have sent a message on their website system, asking what they've got on the A-31 and A-35. Their Website says they'll "send me an email in a few days". Will wait in hope............
This came today:
Reply: 17.8.15. 1546
Benoit de Mulder,
"Hi,
The Pilot's notes is available here:
http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/aircraft/usa/vultee/a-35vengeance/a-p-2024d-pilot-s-notes-for-vengeance-iv-target-tower-2nd-edition.html
You can read it online (like all avialogs manuals) but you can not download it without a subscription.
Best regards, Benoit"
Googled it up, but got no further than a pic of an A-35 and the cover of the PN. (Probably me doing something wrong !).
Will resume hunt through back Posts tomorrow.Danny.
Danny,
you may have been here before, but I will put it up again.
ADF Serials - Vengeance
this goes directly to the Vengeance page on ADF serials. lots of information herein, and all substantiated from record cards. The mods there do a lot of good work.
Unfortunately all the photos are external shots only.
3Wire
you may have been here before, but I will put it up again.
ADF Serials - Vengeance
this goes directly to the Vengeance page on ADF serials. lots of information herein, and all substantiated from record cards. The mods there do a lot of good work.
Unfortunately all the photos are external shots only.
3Wire
Well done Danny. I've reposted 682al's images here so that others may view them. He says that the pictures are from AP2024A Vol1, Vengeance MkI Pilots Notes, held at Kew, but I see that your post following identifies it as a MkIV cockpit. Confused? You bet! As to Avialog's response, it merely links to the same RAF Pilots Notes for the Vengeance IV (AP2024D) that mine did, thus no pictures at all.
Last edited by Chugalug2; 18th Aug 2015 at 07:10.
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Would love to know as a guy with Electronics training, what exactly did " Switch for destruction of R-3003 radio did"? Short out something?
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On other devices of the era, it would start a mechanical clock with a physical explosive charge. I assume this is an IFF box?
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lasernigel,
The A-31s we had only had a weak R/T set. This thing has a "Radio Telegraph Key", so c/w comms. Presumably all the Oz A-35s were so equipped. Or were they ? How would their Navs and "straight" AGs have coped with a Morse Key ? (it's been a long time since the Navs were at ITW !)
Remember, this Narellan aircraft never flew (apart from a few hours before boxing-up and despatch). This radio gear (no idea, never saw it in my life) might have been only the bright idea of some Sydney Tech stude or instructor (Class Project: Design and build installation of this gubbins ?)
I understand that in UK, certain hush-hush items of radar, etc, were fitted with an internal demolition charge, actuated by the crew (or by an inertia switch in the event of a crash) to prevent the enemy from working out its modus operandi. But I have no knowledge of this.
Danny.
The A-31s we had only had a weak R/T set. This thing has a "Radio Telegraph Key", so c/w comms. Presumably all the Oz A-35s were so equipped. Or were they ? How would their Navs and "straight" AGs have coped with a Morse Key ? (it's been a long time since the Navs were at ITW !)
Remember, this Narellan aircraft never flew (apart from a few hours before boxing-up and despatch). This radio gear (no idea, never saw it in my life) might have been only the bright idea of some Sydney Tech stude or instructor (Class Project: Design and build installation of this gubbins ?)
I understand that in UK, certain hush-hush items of radar, etc, were fitted with an internal demolition charge, actuated by the crew (or by an inertia switch in the event of a crash) to prevent the enemy from working out its modus operandi. But I have no knowledge of this.
Danny.
I don't know about the Victor or Vulcan but the Valiant had a destruct charge just behind the cockpit upper escape exit. That would have had to have been operated by the Navs or AEO. The pilots would have been more sensible and used their MB letdown facility.
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Whilst in the Army 71-84, none of our radios either on tanks or support vehicles had this facility. Neither did the Sioux or Scout helicopters.
Maybe the Russkies already knew!
Maybe the Russkies already knew!
Could those who understand the RAF AP classification system ("scriblies"?) tell us if AP2024A could refer to a different mark of the Vengeance to AP2024D, or would the latter be the same Mark as the 2024A pub but merely a different edition of the PN's for the MarkIV? It might be that both pilots notes (Avalogs and 682al's) are for the A35 version, hence the cockpit illustrations differing from Danny's Mk's I, II, and III.
In addition I suspect that there would be a waiver printed somewhere along the lines that "not all equipment illustrated is fitted in all aircraft". As Danny says, the SW Comms set illustrated would presumably be for use by a trained WOp (and I suspect require the antennae rigged from the wing tips to the radio mast seen on some of the IAF videos).
Of course, if Sir really only wants one slip indicator on his instrument panel then we can accommodate him, but our slogan at Scruggs Aviation is always that "Two Balls are better than one".
In addition I suspect that there would be a waiver printed somewhere along the lines that "not all equipment illustrated is fitted in all aircraft". As Danny says, the SW Comms set illustrated would presumably be for use by a trained WOp (and I suspect require the antennae rigged from the wing tips to the radio mast seen on some of the IAF videos).
Of course, if Sir really only wants one slip indicator on his instrument panel then we can accommodate him, but our slogan at Scruggs Aviation is always that "Two Balls are better than one".