Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
Same laptop, Military Aviation page, top left 'New Thread'. Click that and start but make sure you give it a title. - FED
Alternatively, "Same laptop, Military Aviation page, top right "Forum Tools" (under "Pages), "Post a New Thread". Click that and start but make sure you give it a title."
PS FED - Whilst writing, a warm thank you for the very well written record of your own fascinating experiences
Alternatively, "Same laptop, Military Aviation page, top right "Forum Tools" (under "Pages), "Post a New Thread". Click that and start but make sure you give it a title."
PS FED - Whilst writing, a warm thank you for the very well written record of your own fascinating experiences
but once an unfortunate Met man, having ended his spiel, chanced his arm and asked "Any Questions ?"
One sergeant pilot who was well known as a supercilious arrogant young bloke asked "Can you tell us the height of the zero degree isotherm?"
The MET man look at him coldly and replied in his grating accent "You mean the f***ing freezing level, don't you?"
The whole room collapsed with laughter..
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Tutti Frutti.
CoodaShooda,
That was quick ! Thank you, Sir - "Bis dat qui cito dat" - "He gives twice who gives quickly" (I'd closed laptop down after sending mine off). Let's hope your chaps can turn something up (interestingly, it seems that even the Smithsonian hasn't got an A-31 or an A-35 either, so Camden is one up on them, too).
FED,
More wonderful stories ! I'll take time to go through carefully to get the full flavour. This is exactly what we need in our cybercrewroom. And what a CV !
FED, Fionn, and Jack,
Thanks for the advice.
May be some time getting the stuff in order before I try (and then there's always the possibility of "fog in the cockpit!"
Danny.
That was quick ! Thank you, Sir - "Bis dat qui cito dat" - "He gives twice who gives quickly" (I'd closed laptop down after sending mine off). Let's hope your chaps can turn something up (interestingly, it seems that even the Smithsonian hasn't got an A-31 or an A-35 either, so Camden is one up on them, too).
FED,
More wonderful stories ! I'll take time to go through carefully to get the full flavour. This is exactly what we need in our cybercrewroom. And what a CV !
FED, Fionn, and Jack,
Thanks for the advice.
May be some time getting the stuff in order before I try (and then there's always the possibility of "fog in the cockpit!"
Danny.
I was going to Perth because that was where the Company’s Australian arm was. I knew some of them from Darwin and also from Aberdeen. During the 80s Aberdeen had been chronically short of pilots so had recruited a number of Australians. They had no experience of offshore work but were brought to the UK, given the necessary training and licences, and flew as co-pilots. They were quite highly paid, as all people who work the wrong side of our world are. They were one of the reasons why as a contract pilot I was not embarrassed by earning more than the staff. At that time on the North Sea I would have an Australian co-pilot with less than twenty hours twin engine and offshore experience earning more than I was.
The company was physically in an excellent position as they were in the same building and floor as the Western Australia office of CASA. The company could not help me with training as they always recruited licensed pilots. A copy of the Air Law burnt onto a disc was the best they could do. The CASA reps were fantastic; helpful, informative and full of encouragement. There was one ex North Sea pilot who whom I knew that had been through this rigmarole and he imparted some excellent advice; that was to get professional tuition for the IREX exam. This I did, expensive, about A$1,200, but worth every cent. The exams are done in real time so a full set of upper and lower en route charts plus the let-down plates for every Australian airfield cost me another A$400. I sorted had a nice room in a hotel run by Taiwanese and had a rented car outside. Twenty eight days I had planned for, I was hoping it wasn’t going to take any longer.
The IREX lessons took about a week and there were a couple of days mugging up on CPL law which I had to take first. Then came the little problem of the exams.
They were all done on a computer using multiple choice answers. That wasn’t the problem; the problem was finding a computer to sit in front of. There were exam centres in the major cities. Perth’s was near Jandakot, a large flying club type airfield which had multiple flying schools, a lot of them training Chinese airline cadets en masse and that was the problem, they had a large number sitting various exams so it was booked up solid. I desperately searched the country and there were two slots in Adelaide. I flashed up Virgin Blue and booked a return to Adelaide and then booked my CPL Air Law slot in Adelaide.
On arrival I rented another car, I now had two. They gave me a big street map and I went to find the examination location. It was a vacant shop in a new shopping centre in a new housing estate. It took me an hour to find it because the area wasn’t, as yet, mapped properly. Then to find a hotel nearby with broadband so I could get some last minute swotting. I now had two hotel rooms as well.
When I arrived at the centre in the morning it was thick with Chinese airline cadets doing their exams. I didn’t have time to talk to them as I was being briefed by my invigilator. The system was easy if you were familiar with a computer so I went through the questions fairly rapidly. An attractive Chinese girl next to me wasn’t having so much luck. It is difficult enough in the first place if you are new at it but even more when the exam in not in your native language. I had this compelling urge to prompt her but I knew that if I did I would certainly be chucked out. When I was satisfied I called the man over, he ran my answers though the programme and up it came with PASS. I had got over the first hurdle.
In the hotel foyer I got on the internet to search next week for slots; there were none, nowhere. I had to book my IREX and ATPL Air Law a fortnight ahead just to make sure. That being done I returned the car and flew back to Perth.
To be continued.
The company was physically in an excellent position as they were in the same building and floor as the Western Australia office of CASA. The company could not help me with training as they always recruited licensed pilots. A copy of the Air Law burnt onto a disc was the best they could do. The CASA reps were fantastic; helpful, informative and full of encouragement. There was one ex North Sea pilot who whom I knew that had been through this rigmarole and he imparted some excellent advice; that was to get professional tuition for the IREX exam. This I did, expensive, about A$1,200, but worth every cent. The exams are done in real time so a full set of upper and lower en route charts plus the let-down plates for every Australian airfield cost me another A$400. I sorted had a nice room in a hotel run by Taiwanese and had a rented car outside. Twenty eight days I had planned for, I was hoping it wasn’t going to take any longer.
The IREX lessons took about a week and there were a couple of days mugging up on CPL law which I had to take first. Then came the little problem of the exams.
They were all done on a computer using multiple choice answers. That wasn’t the problem; the problem was finding a computer to sit in front of. There were exam centres in the major cities. Perth’s was near Jandakot, a large flying club type airfield which had multiple flying schools, a lot of them training Chinese airline cadets en masse and that was the problem, they had a large number sitting various exams so it was booked up solid. I desperately searched the country and there were two slots in Adelaide. I flashed up Virgin Blue and booked a return to Adelaide and then booked my CPL Air Law slot in Adelaide.
On arrival I rented another car, I now had two. They gave me a big street map and I went to find the examination location. It was a vacant shop in a new shopping centre in a new housing estate. It took me an hour to find it because the area wasn’t, as yet, mapped properly. Then to find a hotel nearby with broadband so I could get some last minute swotting. I now had two hotel rooms as well.
When I arrived at the centre in the morning it was thick with Chinese airline cadets doing their exams. I didn’t have time to talk to them as I was being briefed by my invigilator. The system was easy if you were familiar with a computer so I went through the questions fairly rapidly. An attractive Chinese girl next to me wasn’t having so much luck. It is difficult enough in the first place if you are new at it but even more when the exam in not in your native language. I had this compelling urge to prompt her but I knew that if I did I would certainly be chucked out. When I was satisfied I called the man over, he ran my answers though the programme and up it came with PASS. I had got over the first hurdle.
In the hotel foyer I got on the internet to search next week for slots; there were none, nowhere. I had to book my IREX and ATPL Air Law a fortnight ahead just to make sure. That being done I returned the car and flew back to Perth.
To be continued.
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You Learn Something New Every Day.
Fionn,
".....there may be many a reason...." I can give you one - I'm an idiot !
Thank you for the suggestion, but I preferred:
FED and Jack,
Hallelujah ! It works ! (but don't hold your breath),
Thanks, Danny.
".....there may be many a reason...." I can give you one - I'm an idiot !
Thank you for the suggestion, but I preferred:
FED and Jack,
Hallelujah ! It works !
(but don't hold your breath),Thanks, Danny.
Danny,
Apologies if this has been covered previously and I missed it, but the Camden/Narellan Vengeance is an A-31 Mk IA, RAF serial EZ999 (RAAF A27-99 was allocated, but never applied).
BBad
Apologies if this has been covered previously and I missed it, but the Camden/Narellan Vengeance is an A-31 Mk IA, RAF serial EZ999 (RAAF A27-99 was allocated, but never applied).
BBad
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BBad,
So the Museum says ! But there are contrary opinions (my #7235 to Cooda Shooda in Darwin a couple of days ago is a starter (but we have been kicking this around for quite a while; if you go back three years to Page 132 of this Thread, you'll find all and sundry getting in on the act).
As you may have seen, I have a load of material which needs sorting out. When I've found time for that, will put it in on new Post in titled "The Mystery of the Narellan Vengeance" (or something dramatic to that effect !)
If you have anything to add to the pile, please tell us (and are you in Sydney by any chance ?)
Cheers, Danny.
So the Museum says ! But there are contrary opinions (my #7235 to Cooda Shooda in Darwin a couple of days ago is a starter (but we have been kicking this around for quite a while; if you go back three years to Page 132 of this Thread, you'll find all and sundry getting in on the act).
As you may have seen, I have a load of material which needs sorting out. When I've found time for that, will put it in on new Post in titled "The Mystery of the Narellan Vengeance" (or something dramatic to that effect !)
If you have anything to add to the pile, please tell us (and are you in Sydney by any chance ?)
Cheers, Danny.
No, sorry for coming in late Danny, but I have never heard of the identity of EZ999 being in doubt. I will try and dig out the RAAF aircraft status card, which should show it was probably sold off as scrap postwar for 10 quid!
No, I am not in Sydney, but up north in QLD.
Also I believe that the museum is closed to the public at the moment.
PS. Ok, I went back to page 132 and see that its disposal is given as: "It was delivered to 2AD RAAF in June 1943 and was approved as free issue to the RAN in April 1948, but this ordered was cancelled in June 1948. After passing to Department of Aircraft Production for disposal, EZ999 was issued to Sydney Technical College, School of Aircraft Engineering for apprentice training until May 1963. It was acquired by the then proposed Aviation Museum and stored privately until January 1965 then to the Museum and is the only Vultee Vengeance on display in the world."
No, I am not in Sydney, but up north in QLD.
Also I believe that the museum is closed to the public at the moment.
PS. Ok, I went back to page 132 and see that its disposal is given as: "It was delivered to 2AD RAAF in June 1943 and was approved as free issue to the RAN in April 1948, but this ordered was cancelled in June 1948. After passing to Department of Aircraft Production for disposal, EZ999 was issued to Sydney Technical College, School of Aircraft Engineering for apprentice training until May 1963. It was acquired by the then proposed Aviation Museum and stored privately until January 1965 then to the Museum and is the only Vultee Vengeance on display in the world."
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Bbad,
There is no doubt that a Mk.IA VV EZ999 existed and came to Australia (that is extremely well documented). What is at issue is whether this is it, or is another Mark of VV pretending to be it - in other words, a "ringer" !
Watch this space for a few days and All will be Revealed !
Yes, the Museum is presently closed for refurbishment, but their website says that we can send messages to them: I tried that a month ago but got no reply to date.
The Museum is deserving of all praise for saving this, the very last Vultee Vengeance from extinction; my only interest (as an old Vengeance driver) is that what they've got should be correctly described. It deserves that, at least.
Danny.
There is no doubt that a Mk.IA VV EZ999 existed and came to Australia (that is extremely well documented). What is at issue is whether this is it, or is another Mark of VV pretending to be it - in other words, a "ringer" !
Watch this space for a few days and All will be Revealed !
Yes, the Museum is presently closed for refurbishment, but their website says that we can send messages to them: I tried that a month ago but got no reply to date.
The Museum is deserving of all praise for saving this, the very last Vultee Vengeance from extinction; my only interest (as an old Vengeance driver) is that what they've got should be correctly described. It deserves that, at least.
Danny.
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Danny42C ... you weren't Hercule Poirot in a previous existence, were you?
I have nothing to contribute to the VV debate - I just find it absolutely fascinating!
I have nothing to contribute to the VV debate - I just find it absolutely fascinating!
I have nothing to contribute to the VV debate.....
.....other than to mention that the name Vengeance is perpetuated in today's nuclear deterrent in the form of HMS VENGEANCE, the Royal Navy's fourth VANGUARD Class submarine.
Jack
.....other than to mention that the name Vengeance is perpetuated in today's nuclear deterrent in the form of HMS VENGEANCE, the Royal Navy's fourth VANGUARD Class submarine.
Jack
I was not going to have much free time. I was taking the IREX, the difficult one first and the second, the ATPL Air Law was the day before my return flight to Hong Kong so I wanted to make sure I passed. I only took one day free and that was to drive around Freemantle.
The IREX was the bogeyman of all the exams. Apparently the pass mark had been lowered to 70% because so many kept failing it. It was a mixture of everything; technical, meteorological, procedures and aviation law. I was fairly confident owing to my personal training and it was rewarded with an above average pass mark.
Australian air law is full of whys, wherefores and not withstandings. The flight and duty limitations I never understood. One of my questions was on how long three captains could fly a 757 with the availability of a ‘resting chair’. However with a bit of luck and intelligent guessing, I passed. Off to the licensing office and put in my application.
I should have laid one on that night having achieved a fairly difficult operation but I didn’t, I was too relieved.
The next day I was back in China and the day after that I was doing my Australian Proficiency and Instrument Test.
We used B-7958. I don’t think the Chinese company knew what it was actually being used for. They were told it was just a base check. I was just an ordinary private citizen and we were using, for my benefit, a helicopter which would have cost about US3,000/hr. One could ague that I was probably going to work for them so I would have to do it anyway. There was one slight hiccup. When the forms went through CASA queried the fact that we had used a Chinese registered aircraft. They thought, quite reasonably, that it should have been done in an Australian registered example. However, that was glossed over on the basis that there wasn’t one handy at the time.
Then came the wait for the actual licence; anywhere between a fortnight and a month. I was living in company accommodation so it wasn’t too expensive. After three weeks I had been away from home for two months so I flew back to the UK. The day after I arrived I had a phone to say it had arrived in Shekou. It took a week for CAAC to process the endorsement and then I was airborne again in China.
I was back on contract with the British company. My CAA licence was invalid owing to my age so the G registered aircraft were out of bounds. I was now in a position where I was paid as a pilot by a major British aviation company but I was not allowed to fly their aeroplanes.
Even stranger things were going to happen………………….
The IREX was the bogeyman of all the exams. Apparently the pass mark had been lowered to 70% because so many kept failing it. It was a mixture of everything; technical, meteorological, procedures and aviation law. I was fairly confident owing to my personal training and it was rewarded with an above average pass mark.
Australian air law is full of whys, wherefores and not withstandings. The flight and duty limitations I never understood. One of my questions was on how long three captains could fly a 757 with the availability of a ‘resting chair’. However with a bit of luck and intelligent guessing, I passed. Off to the licensing office and put in my application.
I should have laid one on that night having achieved a fairly difficult operation but I didn’t, I was too relieved.
The next day I was back in China and the day after that I was doing my Australian Proficiency and Instrument Test.
We used B-7958. I don’t think the Chinese company knew what it was actually being used for. They were told it was just a base check. I was just an ordinary private citizen and we were using, for my benefit, a helicopter which would have cost about US3,000/hr. One could ague that I was probably going to work for them so I would have to do it anyway. There was one slight hiccup. When the forms went through CASA queried the fact that we had used a Chinese registered aircraft. They thought, quite reasonably, that it should have been done in an Australian registered example. However, that was glossed over on the basis that there wasn’t one handy at the time.
Then came the wait for the actual licence; anywhere between a fortnight and a month. I was living in company accommodation so it wasn’t too expensive. After three weeks I had been away from home for two months so I flew back to the UK. The day after I arrived I had a phone to say it had arrived in Shekou. It took a week for CAAC to process the endorsement and then I was airborne again in China.
I was back on contract with the British company. My CAA licence was invalid owing to my age so the G registered aircraft were out of bounds. I was now in a position where I was paid as a pilot by a major British aviation company but I was not allowed to fly their aeroplanes.
Even stranger things were going to happen………………….
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FED,
Another winner !
"Even stranger things were going to happen…………………. " This is powerfully reminiscent of the war years, when we constantly heard: "That was Yesterday - it's all been Changed !"
As I said a long time ago, if the White Rabbit had come bounding into the Mess, no one would have turned a hair (and he'd have been in the curry that night !).
Danny.
Another winner !
"Even stranger things were going to happen…………………. " This is powerfully reminiscent of the war years, when we constantly heard: "That was Yesterday - it's all been Changed !"
As I said a long time ago, if the White Rabbit had come bounding into the Mess, no one would have turned a hair (and he'd have been in the curry that night !).
Danny.
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The CASA reps were fantastic; helpful, informative and full of encouragement.
Centaurus
Met. briefing at RAF Wyton: Weather Guesser strode to the lectern, acknowledged the Stn Cdr and said ...
"I see 51 Sqn are here so the weather must be OK!" ... and promptly b******d off to a great cheer from 39, 100 and 360 sqn personnel!!
Met. briefing at RAF Wyton: Weather Guesser strode to the lectern, acknowledged the Stn Cdr and said ...
"I see 51 Sqn are here so the weather must be OK!" ... and promptly b******d off to a great cheer from 39, 100 and 360 sqn personnel!!
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Union Jack (your #7250),
".....other than to mention that the name Vengeance is perpetuated in today's nuclear deterrent in the form of HMS VENGEANCE, the Royal Navy's fourth VANGUARD Class submarine".
Well at least ours was ASTUTE enough to avoid belly-landings !
Cheers, Danny.
".....other than to mention that the name Vengeance is perpetuated in today's nuclear deterrent in the form of HMS VENGEANCE, the Royal Navy's fourth VANGUARD Class submarine".
Well at least ours was ASTUTE enough to avoid belly-landings !
Cheers, Danny.
Thing progressed in the normal way. Even as a contract pilot I was rostered on an eight weeks on and four weeks off rota. Come November came another bombshell.
As I had mentioned before, the Chinese Aviation procedures and practices were starting to get in line with Western standards. We had, for decades, flown Chinese registered aircraft on an endorsement to our CAA/CASA licences. CAAC now decided that something else would be brought in line with everywhere else. An endorsement was only valid for six months, after that a pilot had to have a Chinese national licence.
We had six months to get a licence. What about me? On to CAAC again. The answer was simple; pass the exams and the medical and you will get a licence.
It wasn’t only me who had to get a licence, there were five others. None of had a clue what to do and nor did our Chinese pilots because all their exams were in Chinese so they could not help us with the special exams in English for expats. The first thing was the medical. Two parts: The first part in a hospital where they checked the entire body including five blood samples for everything including Aids. A full body Xray and Echograms for all the soft tissue. Resting ECG followed by a stress ECG on a treadmill. The last was easy, the Australians did that too.
We went to Guangzhou for the second part of the medical with the CAAC doctors. Our company doctor came with us and managed to get through a pack of cigarettes on the two hour drive there, a pack whilst we were there and a pack on the way back. There are special CAAC hospitals scattered around China. These are for aviation people and do everything that a normal hospital does purely for aviation employees. We were there on Wannabees Day, gorgeous young u/t hostesses desperately practicing their English on us. One of them had a problem with too low a blood pressure; my suggestion that I should take her into a dark room for fifteen minutes was not taken up.
I went into the eye test. I had never done an eye test IMC in cigarette smoke. Both of the doctors operating the random pointing machine were going full blast. The ENT test room was even worse; they didn’t need to ask you to cough. You have to remember then I was on about 40/day so you can imagine what it was like. However we all passed and on return about two kilometres from the heliport we peeled of to a restaurant for a company funded dinner.
Shortly after this I went back the UK for Christmas. Come January when I expected to return I was advised that I was not needed until the Typhoon Season in April. I was then asked to confirm whether I was still available. When I replied in the affirmative they offered me a slot in the Solomon Islands.
Solomon Islands??????? I thought I knew about the oil industry but Solomon Islands? I was filled in on the details. I was going there on the RAMSI contract so I looked up RAMSI.
In 2003 the Solomon Islands was heading for anarchy so at the request of the Governor General Australian and New Zealand forces effectively invaded the country. They then took over the police and most of the senior civil service. The operation was supported by other countries in the South Pacific and so it was called Regional Assistance Mission to Solomon Islands.
I flew Singapore Airlines to Singapore; night stop, then to Brisbane and Air Vanuatu to Honiara. Another chapter had begun.
As I had mentioned before, the Chinese Aviation procedures and practices were starting to get in line with Western standards. We had, for decades, flown Chinese registered aircraft on an endorsement to our CAA/CASA licences. CAAC now decided that something else would be brought in line with everywhere else. An endorsement was only valid for six months, after that a pilot had to have a Chinese national licence.
We had six months to get a licence. What about me? On to CAAC again. The answer was simple; pass the exams and the medical and you will get a licence.
It wasn’t only me who had to get a licence, there were five others. None of had a clue what to do and nor did our Chinese pilots because all their exams were in Chinese so they could not help us with the special exams in English for expats. The first thing was the medical. Two parts: The first part in a hospital where they checked the entire body including five blood samples for everything including Aids. A full body Xray and Echograms for all the soft tissue. Resting ECG followed by a stress ECG on a treadmill. The last was easy, the Australians did that too.
We went to Guangzhou for the second part of the medical with the CAAC doctors. Our company doctor came with us and managed to get through a pack of cigarettes on the two hour drive there, a pack whilst we were there and a pack on the way back. There are special CAAC hospitals scattered around China. These are for aviation people and do everything that a normal hospital does purely for aviation employees. We were there on Wannabees Day, gorgeous young u/t hostesses desperately practicing their English on us. One of them had a problem with too low a blood pressure; my suggestion that I should take her into a dark room for fifteen minutes was not taken up.
I went into the eye test. I had never done an eye test IMC in cigarette smoke. Both of the doctors operating the random pointing machine were going full blast. The ENT test room was even worse; they didn’t need to ask you to cough. You have to remember then I was on about 40/day so you can imagine what it was like. However we all passed and on return about two kilometres from the heliport we peeled of to a restaurant for a company funded dinner.
Shortly after this I went back the UK for Christmas. Come January when I expected to return I was advised that I was not needed until the Typhoon Season in April. I was then asked to confirm whether I was still available. When I replied in the affirmative they offered me a slot in the Solomon Islands.
Solomon Islands??????? I thought I knew about the oil industry but Solomon Islands? I was filled in on the details. I was going there on the RAMSI contract so I looked up RAMSI.
In 2003 the Solomon Islands was heading for anarchy so at the request of the Governor General Australian and New Zealand forces effectively invaded the country. They then took over the police and most of the senior civil service. The operation was supported by other countries in the South Pacific and so it was called Regional Assistance Mission to Solomon Islands.
I flew Singapore Airlines to Singapore; night stop, then to Brisbane and Air Vanuatu to Honiara. Another chapter had begun.
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FED,
We reckoned that war was complicated, but that lot leaves me breathless ! I thought the RAF medical services were pretty good at b#gg#ring you about, but this tops everything. Perhaps it would have been better to learn Mandarin, take Chinese nationality and have done with it !
Btw, did they still have the old blowing-up 40mm of mercury for 60 secs form of torture ? (that used to sort out the 40-a-day chaps !)
So now you're going out among the headhunters. We look forward to your continuing saga. Best of British luck !
Danny.
We reckoned that war was complicated, but that lot leaves me breathless ! I thought the RAF medical services were pretty good at b#gg#ring you about, but this tops everything. Perhaps it would have been better to learn Mandarin, take Chinese nationality and have done with it !
Btw, did they still have the old blowing-up 40mm of mercury for 60 secs form of torture ? (that used to sort out the 40-a-day chaps !)
So now you're going out among the headhunters. We look forward to your continuing saga. Best of British luck !
Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 29th Jul 2015 at 20:57. Reason: Error