Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
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harrym,
Never having gone back to the States since '42, I can't offer an opinion. As for troopship rations, I regret to say that, on arrival in Bombay, we showed our appreciation of the Sgt-cook's efforts by presenting him with a plaque on which we had fashioned a 3-D "Most Highly Derogatory Order of the Irremovable Digit" * (out of moulded dough, baked crisp and then coloured). I hope he saw the joke and has kept it among his souveniers.
Note * Wiki has the "Highly Derogatory Order" story, but, alas, no pictures....D.
Fareastdriver,
Your picture from Chungking looks like a very neat design more akin to the Isetta than the Bond, which I must admit was too light and flimsy to survive in today's traffic conditions (although that ridiculous Sinclair C-5 thing was taken quite seriously for a while a few years ago).
But the more substantial "Put-Puts", which took over from the rickshaws in the Far East, showed the obvious way to a cheap, urban taxi. And the single front wheel would allow the design of very short turning circle to enable U-turns in an urban street (à la the old London cabs)...D.
MPN11,
Vive les automobiles Peugeot ! I reckon our old 403 to have been far away the best car of my life...D.
Hummingfrog,
Looks like a "special" LWB (cut'n shut ?) conversion based on a straight-eight something. Any guesses ?...D.
Cheers, all. Danny.
Never having gone back to the States since '42, I can't offer an opinion. As for troopship rations, I regret to say that, on arrival in Bombay, we showed our appreciation of the Sgt-cook's efforts by presenting him with a plaque on which we had fashioned a 3-D "Most Highly Derogatory Order of the Irremovable Digit" * (out of moulded dough, baked crisp and then coloured). I hope he saw the joke and has kept it among his souveniers.
Note * Wiki has the "Highly Derogatory Order" story, but, alas, no pictures....D.
Fareastdriver,
Your picture from Chungking looks like a very neat design more akin to the Isetta than the Bond, which I must admit was too light and flimsy to survive in today's traffic conditions (although that ridiculous Sinclair C-5 thing was taken quite seriously for a while a few years ago).
But the more substantial "Put-Puts", which took over from the rickshaws in the Far East, showed the obvious way to a cheap, urban taxi. And the single front wheel would allow the design of very short turning circle to enable U-turns in an urban street (à la the old London cabs)...D.
MPN11,
Vive les automobiles Peugeot ! I reckon our old 403 to have been far away the best car of my life...D.
Hummingfrog,
Looks like a "special" LWB (cut'n shut ?) conversion based on a straight-eight something. Any guesses ?...D.
Cheers, all. Danny.
The mascot on the hood which look like an Indian's head with the feathers trailing, plus the fact that it's big and therefore in the upper class range, suggest to me that it's a Pontiac.
I'll take you to task comparing the Chang An to the Isetta or a Tuc Tuc. The Isetta had two seats at the front behind the door. This ensured that you would both be the first to arrive at the inevitable accident and when that happened you could not get out because the door was jammed in your face. The Chang An is built like a car and looks the same inside as opposed to the three wheel TucTucs prevalent in India.
At the end of the last century there were some pretty horrific lashups burbling around China but the rules are now pretty draconian so now it has to be properly constructed.
I'll take you to task comparing the Chang An to the Isetta or a Tuc Tuc. The Isetta had two seats at the front behind the door. This ensured that you would both be the first to arrive at the inevitable accident and when that happened you could not get out because the door was jammed in your face. The Chang An is built like a car and looks the same inside as opposed to the three wheel TucTucs prevalent in India.
At the end of the last century there were some pretty horrific lashups burbling around China but the rules are now pretty draconian so now it has to be properly constructed.
Last edited by Fareastdriver; 15th Jun 2014 at 03:17.
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Fareastdriver,
Ah, for the keen eyes of youth ! Even with max zoom I can see only a shapeless blur. There is something on the spare wheel cover which might be "Pontiac".
It's a fair cop, Guv ! I must admit that you were very close to the accident in an Isetta. The solution was not to have an accident ! I intended only to imply that the Isetta was a far more solid device than the Bond (which was really a jumped-up scooter).
The Chang An is clearly a much more sophisticated design, four doors are obyiously a requirement for a taxi, and it has more in common with the "Reliant" and its derivatives (might sell well in Uk if the price is right).
Danny.
Ah, for the keen eyes of youth ! Even with max zoom I can see only a shapeless blur. There is something on the spare wheel cover which might be "Pontiac".
It's a fair cop, Guv ! I must admit that you were very close to the accident in an Isetta. The solution was not to have an accident ! I intended only to imply that the Isetta was a far more solid device than the Bond (which was really a jumped-up scooter).
The Chang An is clearly a much more sophisticated design, four doors are obyiously a requirement for a taxi, and it has more in common with the "Reliant" and its derivatives (might sell well in Uk if the price is right).
Danny.
Ormeside, I am greatly impressed by your revelation that you have released a jeep/trailer combination on airdrop from a Hastings (on reflection perhaps there never was a gun, and it simply got added in the telling?) Whatever you had hanging there as an external load I suspect that it was not alone in being 'not happy' and that you were mightily relieved to be well shot of it with the 'green on'.
Most will know of course, but Balbo meaning a large aircraft formation refers to Marshal Italo Balbo of the Regia Aeronautica Italiana. He was famed as having twice led large formations of Savoia-Marchetii S55 flying boats; 12 in 1930 from Italy to Rio, 24 in 1933 from Rome to Chicago! He died 28 June 1940 when he was shot down by his own anti aircraft guns at Tobruk (the RAF had been there just beforehand):-
Italo Balbo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If he had still been around in 1944/45, I think he might have been impressed at just how large a Balbo could be!
You say that you already knew your towing crew for the Rhine, so a tow and glider crew were paired with each other? Makes sense if so, as they could train and co-ordinate their flying accordingly. You leave us hanging onto the proverbial cliff edge. Not for too long I hope!
harrym, your reservations about the Tiger Moth I would not care to challenge, (especially from one who trained QFI's!). I can only say that as a mere CCF cadet on a Flying Scholarship course at Thruxton in the late 50's, she was a veritable moonrocket! That was of course in comparison to our normal steed, the Thruxton Jackaroo. Now that was a lemon, with all the urge that might be assumed after a perfectly good Tiger Moth was broadened out to contain a supposedly 4 seater cabin in place of the two open cockpits. As it wasn't aerobatic we were able to don the Biggles type outfits provided and go learn about stalling and recovery in the real thing!
Hummingfrog, great pictures! Could the Blood Wagon that you show be the result of yet more proof of two nations being divided by a common language? Might it not be an Ambulance as we would expect, but something more macabre, a Hearse? It certainly has the gravitas of one, and are there not curtains at the rear?
Pom Pax, thanks for the Griff Rhys Jones film link. I must admit I did not know of the Gold Coast Regiment in Burma. You live and you learn...
Most will know of course, but Balbo meaning a large aircraft formation refers to Marshal Italo Balbo of the Regia Aeronautica Italiana. He was famed as having twice led large formations of Savoia-Marchetii S55 flying boats; 12 in 1930 from Italy to Rio, 24 in 1933 from Rome to Chicago! He died 28 June 1940 when he was shot down by his own anti aircraft guns at Tobruk (the RAF had been there just beforehand):-
Italo Balbo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If he had still been around in 1944/45, I think he might have been impressed at just how large a Balbo could be!
You say that you already knew your towing crew for the Rhine, so a tow and glider crew were paired with each other? Makes sense if so, as they could train and co-ordinate their flying accordingly. You leave us hanging onto the proverbial cliff edge. Not for too long I hope!
harrym, your reservations about the Tiger Moth I would not care to challenge, (especially from one who trained QFI's!). I can only say that as a mere CCF cadet on a Flying Scholarship course at Thruxton in the late 50's, she was a veritable moonrocket! That was of course in comparison to our normal steed, the Thruxton Jackaroo. Now that was a lemon, with all the urge that might be assumed after a perfectly good Tiger Moth was broadened out to contain a supposedly 4 seater cabin in place of the two open cockpits. As it wasn't aerobatic we were able to don the Biggles type outfits provided and go learn about stalling and recovery in the real thing!
Hummingfrog, great pictures! Could the Blood Wagon that you show be the result of yet more proof of two nations being divided by a common language? Might it not be an Ambulance as we would expect, but something more macabre, a Hearse? It certainly has the gravitas of one, and are there not curtains at the rear?
Pom Pax, thanks for the Griff Rhys Jones film link. I must admit I did not know of the Gold Coast Regiment in Burma. You live and you learn...
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Gaining An R.A.F. Pilots Brevet In WW11
We coasted out over Selsey Bill, avoided Dunkirk, still occupied,turning point over Waterloo and on to the Rhine. We had already been "undertaken " by the Dakotas carrying the paras, and now they were returning having dropped their loads. They had been knocked about so we knew that we were for it.
Montys barrage,a bombing attack on Wesel and German smoke generators made it very difficult to see our landing zone. We were at 2500 feet, just right for the 88s. We pulled off from our Dak and headed down. We were badly hit and lost the air bottle in the cockpit so no flaps or brakes but P put it down fast, nose wheel came up through the floor and we eventually halted. Unfortunately we couldn't unload through the front obviously, but I managed to unscrew the rear fuselage and tail, four nuts and bolts, spanner supplied! Luckily nobody was hurt, shaken but unwounded. Our passengers left us, ( they later relieved Belsen), and we made our way to our rendezvous in a farm house with some of the remainder of the Squadron. We were then sent to the perimeter near the station and dug in. All the 6th Airborne objectives were secured by midday, lots of prisoners, one was said to have told his captor"" what kept you, we expected you earlier!" The rest of the day we spent finding out what happened to the rest of the Squadron and watching 2nd TAF Typhoons rocketing armour not too far from our front. That night one of the bridges had to be blown to stop armour and some of our chaps were captured and ended up on the long march towards the end of the war.
Sunday passed with a few incursions, one tank was beaten off by the Royal Ulster Rifles on the unblown bridge nearby, but they had a 17 pounder gun which was able to see it off. Sunday night was a noisy one but at dawn a Scottish Regiment took over our trenches and we retired to Divisional HQ where we made ourselves useful. All the 2nd Army armour passed through to "our" bridge and a splendid sight it looked. Once that was clear we were able to cross the Rhine on the Bailey bridge And transport took us to a tented camp at Kevelaer, on the Siegfried line -very impressive! We travelled via Xanten and Goch , virtually wiped out. After a couple of days we were taken to Helmond and then to Eindhoven where our Dakotas took us back to Fairford. Broadwell sent transport over to take us to a party, everybody took part and it was quite a "do". We lost a lot of our Squadron killed and wounded. In all the Glider Pilot Regiment lost 98 pilots killed of which 58 were R.A.F. Most of the survivors of
"F" Squadron were transferred to "E" Squadron at Down Ampney, We had a few days leave and went to Booker for a couple of weeks flying our beloved Tiger Moths, and then to Shobden for two weeks flying the Hotspur.
Montys barrage,a bombing attack on Wesel and German smoke generators made it very difficult to see our landing zone. We were at 2500 feet, just right for the 88s. We pulled off from our Dak and headed down. We were badly hit and lost the air bottle in the cockpit so no flaps or brakes but P put it down fast, nose wheel came up through the floor and we eventually halted. Unfortunately we couldn't unload through the front obviously, but I managed to unscrew the rear fuselage and tail, four nuts and bolts, spanner supplied! Luckily nobody was hurt, shaken but unwounded. Our passengers left us, ( they later relieved Belsen), and we made our way to our rendezvous in a farm house with some of the remainder of the Squadron. We were then sent to the perimeter near the station and dug in. All the 6th Airborne objectives were secured by midday, lots of prisoners, one was said to have told his captor"" what kept you, we expected you earlier!" The rest of the day we spent finding out what happened to the rest of the Squadron and watching 2nd TAF Typhoons rocketing armour not too far from our front. That night one of the bridges had to be blown to stop armour and some of our chaps were captured and ended up on the long march towards the end of the war.
Sunday passed with a few incursions, one tank was beaten off by the Royal Ulster Rifles on the unblown bridge nearby, but they had a 17 pounder gun which was able to see it off. Sunday night was a noisy one but at dawn a Scottish Regiment took over our trenches and we retired to Divisional HQ where we made ourselves useful. All the 2nd Army armour passed through to "our" bridge and a splendid sight it looked. Once that was clear we were able to cross the Rhine on the Bailey bridge And transport took us to a tented camp at Kevelaer, on the Siegfried line -very impressive! We travelled via Xanten and Goch , virtually wiped out. After a couple of days we were taken to Helmond and then to Eindhoven where our Dakotas took us back to Fairford. Broadwell sent transport over to take us to a party, everybody took part and it was quite a "do". We lost a lot of our Squadron killed and wounded. In all the Glider Pilot Regiment lost 98 pilots killed of which 58 were R.A.F. Most of the survivors of
"F" Squadron were transferred to "E" Squadron at Down Ampney, We had a few days leave and went to Booker for a couple of weeks flying our beloved Tiger Moths, and then to Shobden for two weeks flying the Hotspur.
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Chugalug,
The Thruxton Jackaroo had a forerunner in the shape of the DH83 "Fox-moth", which specialised in 5-minute, 5-bob "joyrides" at many a seaside beach up to and after the war (except that it was 10-bob then). I always thought that it had a 4-seat cabin, but Wiki tells me there were only three. The owner/pilots used to fairly rake it in on a sunny afternoon - the queue of customers reaching right down the beach.
"Blood Wagon" was universally used as a name for the ambulance. But I must admit that this thing does look more like a hearse (and surely they could have found a lick of white paint and done a Red Cross if it was an ambulance ?). Hummingfrog will tell us, I'm sure.
81 (West African) Division were with us in S.Arakan (possibly the same outfit)....D.
Ormeside28 and Fareastdriver,
Yes, our ramblings about Bonds, Isettas and Chang Ans do seem rather small beer in this context, don't they ? Yet they all have their place in our Cyber Crewroom, in which our wise Moderators have allowed us seemingly unlimited scope - with the result that now we have one of the most popular and best supported Threads on PPRuNe.
Ormeside, you really were hiding behind the sofa when soft jobs were being handed out, weren't you ? Not content with being dragged round the sky on the end of a piece of string, cast adrift at the mercy of gravity, then when you did get down having to take your aircraft to bits to get the cargo out, then have to go to war with it, sounds like poor sport to me. But then: "serves you right, shouldn't have joined if......". (And wasn't it in your bit of the fracas that the well loved "Professor" Jimmy Edwards picked up his DFC ?)
Truly: "We each had to fight the War we were given" . You didn't choose your war - it chose you . Some of us had it (relatively) easy - you clearly had drawn the short straw !...D.
Cheers all, Danny.
The Thruxton Jackaroo had a forerunner in the shape of the DH83 "Fox-moth", which specialised in 5-minute, 5-bob "joyrides" at many a seaside beach up to and after the war (except that it was 10-bob then). I always thought that it had a 4-seat cabin, but Wiki tells me there were only three. The owner/pilots used to fairly rake it in on a sunny afternoon - the queue of customers reaching right down the beach.
"Blood Wagon" was universally used as a name for the ambulance. But I must admit that this thing does look more like a hearse (and surely they could have found a lick of white paint and done a Red Cross if it was an ambulance ?). Hummingfrog will tell us, I'm sure.
81 (West African) Division were with us in S.Arakan (possibly the same outfit)....D.
Ormeside28 and Fareastdriver,
Yes, our ramblings about Bonds, Isettas and Chang Ans do seem rather small beer in this context, don't they ? Yet they all have their place in our Cyber Crewroom, in which our wise Moderators have allowed us seemingly unlimited scope - with the result that now we have one of the most popular and best supported Threads on PPRuNe.
Ormeside, you really were hiding behind the sofa when soft jobs were being handed out, weren't you ? Not content with being dragged round the sky on the end of a piece of string, cast adrift at the mercy of gravity, then when you did get down having to take your aircraft to bits to get the cargo out, then have to go to war with it, sounds like poor sport to me. But then: "serves you right, shouldn't have joined if......". (And wasn't it in your bit of the fracas that the well loved "Professor" Jimmy Edwards picked up his DFC ?)
Truly: "We each had to fight the War we were given" . You didn't choose your war - it chose you . Some of us had it (relatively) easy - you clearly had drawn the short straw !...D.
Cheers all, Danny.
A (very) Few Facts
I have two problems in telling the story of my father “Gaining an R.A.F. Pilot's Brevet in WW11”.
I do have the sheet from 3 EFTS (June 1942) showing his first 12.20 hours before he was shipped off to 5 BFTS in Florida. I think that he went out on the 'Thomas H Barry' (Aug.-Sept.1942), I know that he arrived in Clewiston Florida 25.09 1942 for Course 11. If you visit the 5 BFTS website <5bfts.org.uk> and click on Courses, then on the Course 11 arrival picture, he is on the front row, (Burgess G). He, and two other Course 11 cadets, fell ill immediately (no immunity to a US virus) and were hospitalised and later sent off base to recuperate. They then joined Course 12 (12.11.1942 ) which was the first Course to “blend” USAAC cadets with the RAF trainees. They gained their wings 25.05.1943 and came back to Blighty on (Yes, you've guessed it), the “Louis Pasteur” late June 1943.
Now, lacking his first log book, a bit of a mystery ensues.
I cannot find out where my Dad went to OTU. As I have said, all I have is his 'Air Forces in India' log book which starts with 317.45 hours carried forward. 212.20 of that is single engined time from 3 EFTS (UK) and 5 BFTS (USA), so, he acquired 105.25 hours multi engine time somewhere in the UK before he arrived in India. However the only entry in the record of service in the back of the log book, between his US training and his arrival in India, (apart from distribution centres like Moncton ,Harrogate and Blackpool) is 6 (P)AFU Little Rissington. This (Danny tells me) is strange, as you would not spend more than 20-25 hours with an AFU, before going on to an OTU for 75-80 hours specific training. However no OTU appears on his record of service. Every other place that he served in, from joining the RAF in 1938 to his last posting in 1946, is there in the record of service at the back of his log - why would he omit the OTU?
Even the green RAF record card that I have before me which records “Unit From - Unit To” and “Mustering” etc. Reads as follows:
6 (P) AFU 3/8/43
A Chedworth 15/9/43 (Hospital admission)?
6 (P) AFU 6/10/43
This next line has been crossed out, but I think it might have said, 1517 BAT FLT
5PDC 4/12/43 (From where he was sent to India).
So the OTU remains a mystery.
Here are the bare facts (as per the Appointment Record card) of his RAF service.
He enlisted as an A/C Apprentice at Halton 30/8/38 (seven & a half weeks before his 16th Birthday).
Was placed as an U/T Instrument Maker 1/9/38 at No1 E&W School Cranwell.
Appointed Leading Apprentice 17/5/40
Mustered Instrument Maker 1 and classified AC2 3/7/40 At No.1(C))OTU Silloth
Re-enlisted at age 18 for 12 year RAF 22/10/40
Reclassified AC1 1/12/40
Reclassified LAC 17/2/41
Promoted T/ CPL 5/5/41
Remustered U/T Pilot 19/1/42
Promoted T/SGT & Remustered Pilot 25/5/43
Promoted T/F/SGT 25/5/44
Promoted T/W/O 25/4/45
Commisioned P/O 25/8/45
Confirmed in Appt. Promoted F/O 25/2/46
That's enough for now.
Ian BB
PS Danny, your last: "We each had to fight the War we were given" . You didn't choose your war - it chose you "
It really was pure luck as to where you ended up - you went where you were sent. From reading his log book, it was my Dad's luck to never see a shot fired in anger during his wartime service - his luck ran out early in 1948.
- I never knew my Father. He died when I was just four months old, so, sadly, I have no memories of him at all.
- His first log book is lost, so all I have is his 'Air Forces in India' canvas-covered log book which starts 1st March 1944 at RAF Mauripur with 317.45 hours carried forward.
I do have the sheet from 3 EFTS (June 1942) showing his first 12.20 hours before he was shipped off to 5 BFTS in Florida. I think that he went out on the 'Thomas H Barry' (Aug.-Sept.1942), I know that he arrived in Clewiston Florida 25.09 1942 for Course 11. If you visit the 5 BFTS website <5bfts.org.uk> and click on Courses, then on the Course 11 arrival picture, he is on the front row, (Burgess G). He, and two other Course 11 cadets, fell ill immediately (no immunity to a US virus) and were hospitalised and later sent off base to recuperate. They then joined Course 12 (12.11.1942 ) which was the first Course to “blend” USAAC cadets with the RAF trainees. They gained their wings 25.05.1943 and came back to Blighty on (Yes, you've guessed it), the “Louis Pasteur” late June 1943.
Now, lacking his first log book, a bit of a mystery ensues.
I cannot find out where my Dad went to OTU. As I have said, all I have is his 'Air Forces in India' log book which starts with 317.45 hours carried forward. 212.20 of that is single engined time from 3 EFTS (UK) and 5 BFTS (USA), so, he acquired 105.25 hours multi engine time somewhere in the UK before he arrived in India. However the only entry in the record of service in the back of the log book, between his US training and his arrival in India, (apart from distribution centres like Moncton ,Harrogate and Blackpool) is 6 (P)AFU Little Rissington. This (Danny tells me) is strange, as you would not spend more than 20-25 hours with an AFU, before going on to an OTU for 75-80 hours specific training. However no OTU appears on his record of service. Every other place that he served in, from joining the RAF in 1938 to his last posting in 1946, is there in the record of service at the back of his log - why would he omit the OTU?
Even the green RAF record card that I have before me which records “Unit From - Unit To” and “Mustering” etc. Reads as follows:
6 (P) AFU 3/8/43
A Chedworth 15/9/43 (Hospital admission)?
6 (P) AFU 6/10/43
This next line has been crossed out, but I think it might have said, 1517 BAT FLT
5PDC 4/12/43 (From where he was sent to India).
So the OTU remains a mystery.
Here are the bare facts (as per the Appointment Record card) of his RAF service.
He enlisted as an A/C Apprentice at Halton 30/8/38 (seven & a half weeks before his 16th Birthday).
Was placed as an U/T Instrument Maker 1/9/38 at No1 E&W School Cranwell.
Appointed Leading Apprentice 17/5/40
Mustered Instrument Maker 1 and classified AC2 3/7/40 At No.1(C))OTU Silloth
Re-enlisted at age 18 for 12 year RAF 22/10/40
Reclassified AC1 1/12/40
Reclassified LAC 17/2/41
Promoted T/ CPL 5/5/41
Remustered U/T Pilot 19/1/42
Promoted T/SGT & Remustered Pilot 25/5/43
Promoted T/F/SGT 25/5/44
Promoted T/W/O 25/4/45
Commisioned P/O 25/8/45
Confirmed in Appt. Promoted F/O 25/2/46
That's enough for now.
Ian BB
PS Danny, your last: "We each had to fight the War we were given" . You didn't choose your war - it chose you "
It really was pure luck as to where you ended up - you went where you were sent. From reading his log book, it was my Dad's luck to never see a shot fired in anger during his wartime service - his luck ran out early in 1948.
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Ian B-B,
Although we can't trace it, the 105 hrs unaccounted for must include an OTU (Twin as you surmise). As I said before, they wouldn't have sent him out to India without one (what would have been the point ?) The time fits very nicely: 25 hrs AFU (to re-accustom him to UK wartime conditions) plus 75 at an OTU.
As for OCTU, that must be anybody's guess. It ranged from none at all (as in my case), where I was effectively "commissioned in the Field", through the home operational squadrons (where it was pretty well the same, but there might have been a quick Course somewhere to teach you how to tie a bow tie and pass the Port to the left (but never heard of such a thing, now I come to think of it). You'd have to ask someone who served the War years in UK.
When you finished our SFTS, you just got your A/PO or a Sgts' stripes (acccording to their taste). In the Arnold Schools in the US, there was this fiction that their Flight School constituted an OCTU in its own right (and all successful US Cadets ended as 2/Lieuts - but that did not apply to us ! - we just got a set of USAAC wings as a Consolation Prize).
But Clewiston was a BFTS, not an Arnold School, so British rules would apply to us (but not the obligatory 20% of US Cadets there, who apparently got the best of both worlds, all ending as 2/Lieuts with both sets of wings !
Confused ? - Join the Club ! Danny.
Although we can't trace it, the 105 hrs unaccounted for must include an OTU (Twin as you surmise). As I said before, they wouldn't have sent him out to India without one (what would have been the point ?) The time fits very nicely: 25 hrs AFU (to re-accustom him to UK wartime conditions) plus 75 at an OTU.
As for OCTU, that must be anybody's guess. It ranged from none at all (as in my case), where I was effectively "commissioned in the Field", through the home operational squadrons (where it was pretty well the same, but there might have been a quick Course somewhere to teach you how to tie a bow tie and pass the Port to the left (but never heard of such a thing, now I come to think of it). You'd have to ask someone who served the War years in UK.
When you finished our SFTS, you just got your A/PO or a Sgts' stripes (acccording to their taste). In the Arnold Schools in the US, there was this fiction that their Flight School constituted an OCTU in its own right (and all successful US Cadets ended as 2/Lieuts - but that did not apply to us ! - we just got a set of USAAC wings as a Consolation Prize).
But Clewiston was a BFTS, not an Arnold School, so British rules would apply to us (but not the obligatory 20% of US Cadets there, who apparently got the best of both worlds, all ending as 2/Lieuts with both sets of wings !
Confused ? - Join the Club ! Danny.
Ormeside, your post re the Rhine Crossing operation was short and to the point, yet if anything it all the better emphasised how violent and arbitrary war really is. It is very clear that being in that Horsa was a very dangerous place to be, truly a sitting duck for those ravenous 88's. That you all emerged unscathed is remarkable and entirely due to you chaps up front, I'm sure. All those months training in the UK, in North America, and back in the UK again, were preparation for that one flight and its violent arrival at the LZ. They clearly paid off!
There is a tendency to consider the Allied advance through Western Europe as an inevitable outcome, maybe a hiccup or two at Arnhem or the Ardennes, but on the whole pretty well a foregone conclusion. It was of course nothing of the sort, and your description of your part in one of the major component parts of that hard fought and bloody campaign brings that right home.
Gliders, like transport aircraft, are not at the glamour end of military aviation, but they were a vital part of the success of D-Day and the Rhine crossing. They were also mauled terribly at Arnhem as you remind us. We can but remember such duty and sacrifice, pay tribute to the fallen, and to the survivors such as yourself say a heartfelt thank you.
Thank you indeed, Ormeside28.
There is a tendency to consider the Allied advance through Western Europe as an inevitable outcome, maybe a hiccup or two at Arnhem or the Ardennes, but on the whole pretty well a foregone conclusion. It was of course nothing of the sort, and your description of your part in one of the major component parts of that hard fought and bloody campaign brings that right home.
Gliders, like transport aircraft, are not at the glamour end of military aviation, but they were a vital part of the success of D-Day and the Rhine crossing. They were also mauled terribly at Arnhem as you remind us. We can but remember such duty and sacrifice, pay tribute to the fallen, and to the survivors such as yourself say a heartfelt thank you.
Thank you indeed, Ormeside28.
Nothing to do with "the old school tie" of course!
Danny your last: "When you finished our SFTS, you just got your A/PO or a Sgts' stripes (acccording to their taste)".
The figures for Dad's Course 12 at Clewiston were these;
83 RAF Cadets started, 9 washed-out, 2 were killed in training, 57 graduated as NCOs and 15 as Officers.
17 USAAC Cadets started, 1 washed-out, 16 graduated (all as officers with US silver wings, pinned left side, and the RAF wings, right side).
Ian BB (or as you prefer B-B)
The figures for Dad's Course 12 at Clewiston were these;
83 RAF Cadets started, 9 washed-out, 2 were killed in training, 57 graduated as NCOs and 15 as Officers.
17 USAAC Cadets started, 1 washed-out, 16 graduated (all as officers with US silver wings, pinned left side, and the RAF wings, right side).
Ian BB (or as you prefer B-B)
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Gaining An R.A.F.Pilots Brevet in WW11
Thank you Danny and Chugalug. Addendai!
1. All but one of the American Cadets on 18 and 19 Courses at Terrell were commissioned. One was a Flight Officer, possible equivalent W.O.
2. Jimmy Edwards was a Flt Lt pilot on one of the Broadwell Dakotas.I don't think that he was famous then, but certainly deserved his D.F.C.
3.Short straw or not, I didn't have to fly 30, or less, ops in Bomber Command.
The Hotspur was built by General Aircraft and was designed to carry 12 soldiers and two pilots. Luckily never on operations as the back would have been very crowded and dark. Concrete blocks were fitted to make up weight and to make us very of what a bad landing would mean! We had main wheels and a tail wheel, no brakes, push forward after touch down on to the skid under the nose ( and pilots) would bring us to a halt. The flap lever was to the left of the pilot, pull up to 3 o'clock position would give half flap, and to the 12 o'clock for full flaP.
A nice aeroplane and we were towed by Miles Masters so quite fast. Lots of low flying and a couple of high releases, 9000 feet, given a course to Shobden and released.
VE Day happened whilst we were at Shobden so no more European Ops.
We spent the rest of the summer at Timber Hill Camp on the outskirts of Lyme Regis. We lived in a derelict laundry in the town and made our way each morning to the camp at the top of the hill.
A number of the pilots were sent out to various farms around and a few of us were retained in Lyme Regis. I was lucky enough to become the Squadron despatch rider. My job was to take mail and orders to the "farmers" and go once a week to our Regimental Depot at Fargo for orders. We also used the R.A.F. Marine Craft in the harbour to take ammunition and explosive and dump it in Lyme Bay.
We knew that we were destined for the far east and had several detachments to the Dakota OTU at Leicester East to give the Dakota crews practice in towing, and to keep us in flying practice.
I was on embarkation leave in August when the bombs were dropped on Japan so we didn't go.
We were moved about for a few weeks, interviews for staying on in the R.A.F. and then sent to the R.A.F.Regiment depot at Market Harborough. We had to fill in various forms about weapon training etc. Well, we knew about that but the Regiment thought that we were "taking the Mick" and had us on their ranges etc. Then they sent us on indefinite leave. In January I was posted to 14 PAFU at Wheaton Aston to fly Oxfords. A number of ex P.O.W's obviously had priority, and I was made the Assistant Adjutants Assistant.. My Warrant came through in the June. I was luck enough not to become redundant but due to delays in training I decided to leave the Service when my demob number came up in January 1947...a mistake!!
1. All but one of the American Cadets on 18 and 19 Courses at Terrell were commissioned. One was a Flight Officer, possible equivalent W.O.
2. Jimmy Edwards was a Flt Lt pilot on one of the Broadwell Dakotas.I don't think that he was famous then, but certainly deserved his D.F.C.
3.Short straw or not, I didn't have to fly 30, or less, ops in Bomber Command.
The Hotspur was built by General Aircraft and was designed to carry 12 soldiers and two pilots. Luckily never on operations as the back would have been very crowded and dark. Concrete blocks were fitted to make up weight and to make us very of what a bad landing would mean! We had main wheels and a tail wheel, no brakes, push forward after touch down on to the skid under the nose ( and pilots) would bring us to a halt. The flap lever was to the left of the pilot, pull up to 3 o'clock position would give half flap, and to the 12 o'clock for full flaP.
A nice aeroplane and we were towed by Miles Masters so quite fast. Lots of low flying and a couple of high releases, 9000 feet, given a course to Shobden and released.
VE Day happened whilst we were at Shobden so no more European Ops.
We spent the rest of the summer at Timber Hill Camp on the outskirts of Lyme Regis. We lived in a derelict laundry in the town and made our way each morning to the camp at the top of the hill.
A number of the pilots were sent out to various farms around and a few of us were retained in Lyme Regis. I was lucky enough to become the Squadron despatch rider. My job was to take mail and orders to the "farmers" and go once a week to our Regimental Depot at Fargo for orders. We also used the R.A.F. Marine Craft in the harbour to take ammunition and explosive and dump it in Lyme Bay.
We knew that we were destined for the far east and had several detachments to the Dakota OTU at Leicester East to give the Dakota crews practice in towing, and to keep us in flying practice.
I was on embarkation leave in August when the bombs were dropped on Japan so we didn't go.
We were moved about for a few weeks, interviews for staying on in the R.A.F. and then sent to the R.A.F.Regiment depot at Market Harborough. We had to fill in various forms about weapon training etc. Well, we knew about that but the Regiment thought that we were "taking the Mick" and had us on their ranges etc. Then they sent us on indefinite leave. In January I was posted to 14 PAFU at Wheaton Aston to fly Oxfords. A number of ex P.O.W's obviously had priority, and I was made the Assistant Adjutants Assistant.. My Warrant came through in the June. I was luck enough not to become redundant but due to delays in training I decided to leave the Service when my demob number came up in January 1947...a mistake!!
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Ian BB (your call, Sir !) and Ormeside,
Ian, I am very interested in the washout rates that you give for Clewiston on your Dad's Course 12. I reckon 11% for the RAF entry, and just 6% for the US Cadets. This is so widely different from the early "Arnold" figures (40%) and some BFTS (30%) that it is difficult to tease out the truth, I'm trying to make sense of it all, and may Post if I ever succeed.
Ormeside, your "odd man out" at Terrell would have been a Warrant Officer, I'm sure. They had them in the US Forces: they wore a gold 2/Lieut's bar with a thin black (?) stripe across the middle. I'm not sure how they were addressed or whether they were saluted.
I should think their lowly status reflected the fact that they hadn't had the minimum two years (IIRC) "College" (better yet, a degree) required for appointment as a Flight "Kay-det". Clearly, this chap had (exceptionally) - I never saw one - come up from the ground ranks in the way many of our pilot trainees had done.
And your: "we were towed by Miles Masters, so quite fast". We had one such on 20 Sqdn at Valley in '50, a Mk III with a radial engine. We had it to tow a drogue target from a hook somewhere below, but we never used it as such (our Beaufighter did all that) and it soon disappeared. I've always been under the impression that I once flew it, but my log has no entry.
Wiki tells me that it was fast, but my recollection of the old Mk.Is on my AFS in '42 does not support this (I would reckon the Harvard faster). But then, we had Spitfire XVIs and Vampires on 20 Sqdn. and everything is relative, I suppose. That it could haul a glider (even a small one) surprises me.
I've lifted two pictues from Wiki to show the 'up' and 'down' positions for the instructor that I mentioned in a Post on this Thread long ago (contrast the head position relative to the fuselage behind in the two shots).
Yes, the Horoshima and Nagasaki bombs took us all by surprise; everything was chaotic after that.
Cheers, Danny
Mk I (down)
Miles M.27 Master III (W8667), No.5 SFTS
(up)
Ian, I am very interested in the washout rates that you give for Clewiston on your Dad's Course 12. I reckon 11% for the RAF entry, and just 6% for the US Cadets. This is so widely different from the early "Arnold" figures (40%) and some BFTS (30%) that it is difficult to tease out the truth, I'm trying to make sense of it all, and may Post if I ever succeed.
Ormeside, your "odd man out" at Terrell would have been a Warrant Officer, I'm sure. They had them in the US Forces: they wore a gold 2/Lieut's bar with a thin black (?) stripe across the middle. I'm not sure how they were addressed or whether they were saluted.
I should think their lowly status reflected the fact that they hadn't had the minimum two years (IIRC) "College" (better yet, a degree) required for appointment as a Flight "Kay-det". Clearly, this chap had (exceptionally) - I never saw one - come up from the ground ranks in the way many of our pilot trainees had done.
And your: "we were towed by Miles Masters, so quite fast". We had one such on 20 Sqdn at Valley in '50, a Mk III with a radial engine. We had it to tow a drogue target from a hook somewhere below, but we never used it as such (our Beaufighter did all that) and it soon disappeared. I've always been under the impression that I once flew it, but my log has no entry.
Wiki tells me that it was fast, but my recollection of the old Mk.Is on my AFS in '42 does not support this (I would reckon the Harvard faster). But then, we had Spitfire XVIs and Vampires on 20 Sqdn. and everything is relative, I suppose. That it could haul a glider (even a small one) surprises me.
I've lifted two pictues from Wiki to show the 'up' and 'down' positions for the instructor that I mentioned in a Post on this Thread long ago (contrast the head position relative to the fuselage behind in the two shots).
Yes, the Horoshima and Nagasaki bombs took us all by surprise; everything was chaotic after that.
Cheers, Danny
Mk I (down)
Miles M.27 Master III (W8667), No.5 SFTS(up)
Last edited by Danny42C; 18th Jun 2014 at 22:03. Reason: Typos.
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Danny finds that you cannot judge a book by its cover.
As the Courses came in, we laid on a Welcome Party early the second evening, so that the Instructors and their new students could get acquainted before formal lessons began. These were held in the Instructors' Common Room on the first floor of the Main building, and modest alcoholic and non-alcoholic refreshments were laid on.
I particularly remember one such occasion - it must have been in the early years (no exact date) before the influx of new, young entrants had started. Instructors and nearly all the students were still both of the "old" ex-war generation: there were frequent cries of recognition as another pair of old comrades were happily reunited, perhaps for the first time in twenty years.
I'm not sure, but I think that each Instructor was alloted two or three students, to monitor them at least for the first week or two until they'd settled in. In this instance, I got two (names long forgotten) Master Aircrew, a Czech pilot and a British signaller (former Wop/AG), and they could not have been more unlike in appearance. Naturally we were all out of uniform: ranks being of no consequence here.
The Czech's history was a familiar one. In the pre-war Czecho-Slovakian Air Force, he'd got out ahead of the German invasion and across to France. Hardly had he settled there when France collapsed and he'd managed to get away a second time (by devious means) across the Channel to the UK. There the RAF was glad of every pilot they could get their hands on; he flew with the Czech Squadrons, and RAF Transport Command, throughout the war years.
Post-war, he stayed here (like many of his compatriots and the Poles, well knowing the likely reception they'd get from the new Communist Governments), naturalised, married and stayed in the RAF till retirement. A remarkable thing was that he'd managed to continue in one flying appointment after another, never doing a ground tour (I suppose there wasn't much they could do with him); his last job being with the Hastings Met flights out of Aldergrove before he came to us.
I gathered that he'd not exactly "volunteered" for ATC: he struck me as a little, wizened, prematurely "old" man, seemed taciturn and uncommunicative in the extreme, and by no means happy with his posting to Shawbury. "We're going to have trouble here", I mused.
The other (Master Signaller) was the complete reverse. Sleek, assured and confident in a well-cut blue pinstipe, he was the very image of a successful businessman. He was happy with his transfer to the Branch (I don't know what he'd been doing before), and was keen to get started and "make a go of it". In other words, an ideal candidate. "This one'll be no problem", was my immediate assessment.
To cut a long story short, what we got was the exact opposite of our expectations. The seemingly "bolshie" Czech turned out, in fact, to be "as bright as a button". You only had to tell him a thing once, and he'd got it. Quick thinking and resourceful, he romped through the "Mock" exercises in the face of all we could throw at him. (Of course his long and varied flying experience in war and peace could not but help enormously in this respect; we began to see why the RAF had kept him on the flight deck for so long - he was simply too valuable a man there to lose). Needless to say, he completed the Course successfully, breezed through the Final Exam and was on his way (where to, I know not, but some SATCO must have thanked his lucky stars).
It was the other way round with my Master Sig. It wasn't that he was lazy or uncooperative: he was clearly trying his hardest, building up a huge swathe of notes and spending hours swotting them up. His trouble was that (there is no other way of putting it): he was "thick as two planks". He was a Slow Learner, but we helped all we could, and I'm happy to recall that he scraped through at the end by sheer determination. I hope they shoehorned him into some quiet, low intensity place where he might do very well.
I learned my lesson from that - never judge by appearances !
Goodnight, all.
Danny42C.
Things are not always what they seem !
I particularly remember one such occasion - it must have been in the early years (no exact date) before the influx of new, young entrants had started. Instructors and nearly all the students were still both of the "old" ex-war generation: there were frequent cries of recognition as another pair of old comrades were happily reunited, perhaps for the first time in twenty years.
I'm not sure, but I think that each Instructor was alloted two or three students, to monitor them at least for the first week or two until they'd settled in. In this instance, I got two (names long forgotten) Master Aircrew, a Czech pilot and a British signaller (former Wop/AG), and they could not have been more unlike in appearance. Naturally we were all out of uniform: ranks being of no consequence here.
The Czech's history was a familiar one. In the pre-war Czecho-Slovakian Air Force, he'd got out ahead of the German invasion and across to France. Hardly had he settled there when France collapsed and he'd managed to get away a second time (by devious means) across the Channel to the UK. There the RAF was glad of every pilot they could get their hands on; he flew with the Czech Squadrons, and RAF Transport Command, throughout the war years.
Post-war, he stayed here (like many of his compatriots and the Poles, well knowing the likely reception they'd get from the new Communist Governments), naturalised, married and stayed in the RAF till retirement. A remarkable thing was that he'd managed to continue in one flying appointment after another, never doing a ground tour (I suppose there wasn't much they could do with him); his last job being with the Hastings Met flights out of Aldergrove before he came to us.
I gathered that he'd not exactly "volunteered" for ATC: he struck me as a little, wizened, prematurely "old" man, seemed taciturn and uncommunicative in the extreme, and by no means happy with his posting to Shawbury. "We're going to have trouble here", I mused.
The other (Master Signaller) was the complete reverse. Sleek, assured and confident in a well-cut blue pinstipe, he was the very image of a successful businessman. He was happy with his transfer to the Branch (I don't know what he'd been doing before), and was keen to get started and "make a go of it". In other words, an ideal candidate. "This one'll be no problem", was my immediate assessment.
To cut a long story short, what we got was the exact opposite of our expectations. The seemingly "bolshie" Czech turned out, in fact, to be "as bright as a button". You only had to tell him a thing once, and he'd got it. Quick thinking and resourceful, he romped through the "Mock" exercises in the face of all we could throw at him. (Of course his long and varied flying experience in war and peace could not but help enormously in this respect; we began to see why the RAF had kept him on the flight deck for so long - he was simply too valuable a man there to lose). Needless to say, he completed the Course successfully, breezed through the Final Exam and was on his way (where to, I know not, but some SATCO must have thanked his lucky stars).
It was the other way round with my Master Sig. It wasn't that he was lazy or uncooperative: he was clearly trying his hardest, building up a huge swathe of notes and spending hours swotting them up. His trouble was that (there is no other way of putting it): he was "thick as two planks". He was a Slow Learner, but we helped all we could, and I'm happy to recall that he scraped through at the end by sheer determination. I hope they shoehorned him into some quiet, low intensity place where he might do very well.
I learned my lesson from that - never judge by appearances !
Goodnight, all.
Danny42C.
Things are not always what they seem !
Ormeside, just as the sudden outbreak of war can throw everything into utter chaos, so indeed can the sudden outbreak of peace. All those who have related their story here, including yourself, reflect that truism. It must have caused a mass of conflicting emotions to say the least, relief that potential mortal danger on a daily basis was at last past, mixed with regret that the powerful sense of purpose that was its corollary was also now a dying ember.
You youngsters (!) that graduated in your study of war late in its progress must have felt that all the more keenly. At least you had been engaged in offensive action against a tyranny that threatened your freedom, and as boots on the ground in the front line at that! Many never had that opportunity, one thinks of those (1 in 10?) that were instead sent into the alien and also dangerous depths of the mines to hew coal instead of being in the Forces.
This had been The People's War before such tags became debased. Women were now to be released from war work, be it in the factories, on the land, on the Railways, or as Forces Auxiliaries, whether they wished it or not. Our landscape was set to become the grey postwar wasteland of shortages, until the 60's at least, that I grew up in (punctuated only by the state funfair that was the Festival of Britain).
But at least there was now freedom and hope, in place of the ever possible threat of defeat or even an enforced suing for peace. Whatever befell one after that was bound to be an anti-climax and it was perhaps those who had been in the thick of things for years rather than months who faced the greatest challenge in adjusting to the new tempo of life. Everyone's story was different (hence the unique value of this thread). They did however have one unifying quality, they were all part of the amazing group that was the wartime generation, to which we later ones must be forever indebted!
You youngsters (!) that graduated in your study of war late in its progress must have felt that all the more keenly. At least you had been engaged in offensive action against a tyranny that threatened your freedom, and as boots on the ground in the front line at that! Many never had that opportunity, one thinks of those (1 in 10?) that were instead sent into the alien and also dangerous depths of the mines to hew coal instead of being in the Forces.
This had been The People's War before such tags became debased. Women were now to be released from war work, be it in the factories, on the land, on the Railways, or as Forces Auxiliaries, whether they wished it or not. Our landscape was set to become the grey postwar wasteland of shortages, until the 60's at least, that I grew up in (punctuated only by the state funfair that was the Festival of Britain).
But at least there was now freedom and hope, in place of the ever possible threat of defeat or even an enforced suing for peace. Whatever befell one after that was bound to be an anti-climax and it was perhaps those who had been in the thick of things for years rather than months who faced the greatest challenge in adjusting to the new tempo of life. Everyone's story was different (hence the unique value of this thread). They did however have one unifying quality, they were all part of the amazing group that was the wartime generation, to which we later ones must be forever indebted!
Geoff goes to India
Sgt. Geoff Burgess (Dad) arrived at 21 FC RAF Mauripur on 15 Jan. 1944 via the transit camp BRD Worli Bombay. How had he travelled there? I know not. Some six weeks had passed since he reported to 5PDC (Many thanks Petet)! Blackpool Lancs. to be sent out to India, enough time, I guess, for him to have arrived by sea. I note though, that there are 43.20 hours passenger hours carried forward in his new “Air Forces in India” log book which seems quite a a lot for a pilot with only training hours to record so far. I wonder if he went out by air? If only the first log book had not been lost I would know. Anyhow, he arrives with 317.45 TT recorded, 212.20 SE, 105.25 ME, of which 43.15 was instrument flying.
I see from his Unit Record Card that he was admitted to 1 British General Hospital Karachi on 21 Feb. 1944, no cause given, but I know from my own experience that there are many xenophobic bacteria in the sub-continent!
His new log book starts on March 1st '44. We know, from the timeline above, that Geoff hasn't flown anything for 12-13 weeks so I am not surprised to see that his first week of flying is spent with the 'Check and Conversion Flight' at Mauripur. March 1/2/3, they put him in a Harvard and give him 1.15 dual and 1.00 pax, then 2 hours as P1 with a check pilot aboard followed by 2 hours pax with that same pilot. March 3/4 he flies the Harvard solo .35 and 1.30, Exs. 1-9, 15,16. March 7/8 they give him a Hurricane, No.666 (what price superstition) and he flies that for .35, 1.30, 1.30 Exs. 1-9, 11,15,16 and finally 1 hour of formation flying. The O/C signs his log book and he is now a useful addition to the payroll.
His first job comes on March 18 when he takes a Hurricane from Mauripur to Jodhpur, (2.15) and then on to Allahabad (3.20). He nightstops there and is returned to Mauripur the next day, courtesy of good old BOAC, in an A.W. Ensign, via Delhi and Jodhpur (7.30) pax.
He repeats this trip on March 21 – Another Hurricane to Jodhpur, (2.05) then Allahabad, (3.05) He's getting faster now he knows the way! (Sorry Dad, just joshing). Next day, he is again carried back to base by BOAC, this time, if you please, on the “Cameronian” a Shorts “C” class Flying Boat, so there must be navigable water at Allahabad, Gwalior and Mauripur which I was unaware of.
One more trip in March, (27) he flies a Harvard, Mauripur -Jodhpur (2.30) with a Dutch P/O in the back and is returned on the same day by the BOAC A.W. Ensign. So endeth the first month with 21 FC Mauripur. He would serve with them for three more months before moving on.
Ian B-B
I see from his Unit Record Card that he was admitted to 1 British General Hospital Karachi on 21 Feb. 1944, no cause given, but I know from my own experience that there are many xenophobic bacteria in the sub-continent!
His new log book starts on March 1st '44. We know, from the timeline above, that Geoff hasn't flown anything for 12-13 weeks so I am not surprised to see that his first week of flying is spent with the 'Check and Conversion Flight' at Mauripur. March 1/2/3, they put him in a Harvard and give him 1.15 dual and 1.00 pax, then 2 hours as P1 with a check pilot aboard followed by 2 hours pax with that same pilot. March 3/4 he flies the Harvard solo .35 and 1.30, Exs. 1-9, 15,16. March 7/8 they give him a Hurricane, No.666 (what price superstition) and he flies that for .35, 1.30, 1.30 Exs. 1-9, 11,15,16 and finally 1 hour of formation flying. The O/C signs his log book and he is now a useful addition to the payroll.
His first job comes on March 18 when he takes a Hurricane from Mauripur to Jodhpur, (2.15) and then on to Allahabad (3.20). He nightstops there and is returned to Mauripur the next day, courtesy of good old BOAC, in an A.W. Ensign, via Delhi and Jodhpur (7.30) pax.
He repeats this trip on March 21 – Another Hurricane to Jodhpur, (2.05) then Allahabad, (3.05) He's getting faster now he knows the way! (Sorry Dad, just joshing). Next day, he is again carried back to base by BOAC, this time, if you please, on the “Cameronian” a Shorts “C” class Flying Boat, so there must be navigable water at Allahabad, Gwalior and Mauripur which I was unaware of.
One more trip in March, (27) he flies a Harvard, Mauripur -Jodhpur (2.30) with a Dutch P/O in the back and is returned on the same day by the BOAC A.W. Ensign. So endeth the first month with 21 FC Mauripur. He would serve with them for three more months before moving on.
Ian B-B
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Ian Burgess-Barber - Your mentioned Chedworth in your list of fathers units. That may refer to RAF Chedworth in Gloucestershire which was just down the road from me. I can't say if he was there for a medical admission as it only had a very small sick bay and most people went to the hospital at RAF Innsworth or Little Rissington.
However Chedworth was primarily the satellite field for RAF Aston Down which was a spitfire OTU for a while. I would need to check the dates in details but there were two OTUs plust a Tactical Exercise Unit based there. I'll dig into it and get back to you.
Ormeside28 - Fascinating to read of your adventures as an RAF glider pilot on Varsity. I'm currently in the process of building a replica Horsa cockpit at the Jet Age Museum in Gloucester. We have two ex RAF Glider pilots who both flew on Varsity who volunteer and talk to the public about there experiences on ops.
However Chedworth was primarily the satellite field for RAF Aston Down which was a spitfire OTU for a while. I would need to check the dates in details but there were two OTUs plust a Tactical Exercise Unit based there. I'll dig into it and get back to you.
Ormeside28 - Fascinating to read of your adventures as an RAF glider pilot on Varsity. I'm currently in the process of building a replica Horsa cockpit at the Jet Age Museum in Gloucester. We have two ex RAF Glider pilots who both flew on Varsity who volunteer and talk to the public about there experiences on ops.
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Flying boats at Karachi
Ian, ref your Dad's Indian trips the BOAC C-class boats would have used the Karachi marine base at Korangi creek. In June '45 I flew from there in 'Cordelia' to Calcutta where we landed (if that is the right word?) on the Hooghly river close to large bridge; en route refuelling stops (three, if memory serves me right) were made at various inland lakes, an uncomfortable procedure for us passengers as instead of being moored at the lakeside, for safety reasons we had to transfer to motor launches until fuelling was completed. The lake waters were choppy so we had rough rides, and as the air element of our journey was also fairly bumpy I reflected that being made, during the same day, to feel seasick as well as airsick did not present a very good image of the supposed delights of flying boat travel!
Responses to my last......
HighTow
Thanks for your interest, my own research about Chedworth has not brought up any more clues about why Chedworth is on his Unit Record Card date 15.9.43. Little Rissington is where he was anyway with 6 (P) AFU. I thought it might be a hospital admission because the letter (capital) A preceeds it. The next entry, (crossed out) may be 1517 BAT Flight (Blind, or Beam Approach Training. Thereafter he is on his way to India.
harrym
Your posts, IMHO are a masterclass of reportage, so I thank you for for your info. that Korangi Creek was the terminal at Karachi for the Flying Boats - and not a million miles from RAF Mauripur. Paula (my ex-BOAC Purser partner) tells me that they still used to go out on the "Bunda" boats from "The Rest House" in Karachi in the 1960s. Allahabad is on the confluence of the Ganga and (an)other river. Gwalior has a big reservoir to the west so that was probably their "alighting" point as the Flying Boat folk would describe it. Flying in the lower levels, (pre. pressurised A/C) in the intense heat of India must have been a "lumpy" thing to endure, but to then experience sea-sickness would really have taken the gloss of the seeming glamour of the "BOAC takes good care of you" experience.
Ian B-B
Thanks for your interest, my own research about Chedworth has not brought up any more clues about why Chedworth is on his Unit Record Card date 15.9.43. Little Rissington is where he was anyway with 6 (P) AFU. I thought it might be a hospital admission because the letter (capital) A preceeds it. The next entry, (crossed out) may be 1517 BAT Flight (Blind, or Beam Approach Training. Thereafter he is on his way to India.
harrym
Your posts, IMHO are a masterclass of reportage, so I thank you for for your info. that Korangi Creek was the terminal at Karachi for the Flying Boats - and not a million miles from RAF Mauripur. Paula (my ex-BOAC Purser partner) tells me that they still used to go out on the "Bunda" boats from "The Rest House" in Karachi in the 1960s. Allahabad is on the confluence of the Ganga and (an)other river. Gwalior has a big reservoir to the west so that was probably their "alighting" point as the Flying Boat folk would describe it. Flying in the lower levels, (pre. pressurised A/C) in the intense heat of India must have been a "lumpy" thing to endure, but to then experience sea-sickness would really have taken the gloss of the seeming glamour of the "BOAC takes good care of you" experience.
Ian B-B
Last edited by Ian Burgess-Barber; 19th Jun 2014 at 20:58. Reason: remove repetition
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Ian B-B
The (A) means that he was attached to the unit for a limited period, as opposed to being posted to that unit. One example of its usage would be if he was sent for a training course, but there are many others.
I also note that a detachment of 6 (P) AFU was based at Chedworth from 10th August 1943 to 18th October 1943 [Source: RAF Flying Training and Support Units by Ray Sturtivant] which suggests that he was "attached to Chedworth" from 15th September 1943 to 6th October 1943.
UPDATE: I have found an article which outlines the training at Little Rissington in 1943. It states "The other airfield that we worked from was Chedworth which had the runways and a lighting system for our 20 hours night flying"
Regards
Pete
The (A) means that he was attached to the unit for a limited period, as opposed to being posted to that unit. One example of its usage would be if he was sent for a training course, but there are many others.
I also note that a detachment of 6 (P) AFU was based at Chedworth from 10th August 1943 to 18th October 1943 [Source: RAF Flying Training and Support Units by Ray Sturtivant] which suggests that he was "attached to Chedworth" from 15th September 1943 to 6th October 1943.
UPDATE: I have found an article which outlines the training at Little Rissington in 1943. It states "The other airfield that we worked from was Chedworth which had the runways and a lighting system for our 20 hours night flying"
Regards
Pete
Last edited by Petet; 20th Jun 2014 at 08:50.