Condolences threads
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Condolences threads
Moved from another thread.
Now I know I'm going to take some hits here but I'm saying it anyway, partly because I want to get it off my chests and partly because I hope that it will stimulate discussion - so here goes:
Is it just me or are some of the condolences threads on this forum turning into "cheesiest post" contests? Some of the comments being made are almost stomach churning with poetry being quoted, pictures of little children praying and, in many ways the worst, religious references which assume that the victim or their family are a) religious in the first place and b) Christian. In an increasingly secular and/or multi-faith society this is ever less the case.
When family or friends die, I don't want or need people to quote chunks of the bible at me or to send messages which tell me that God will make it all OK. For a start, I don't believe that there is a God and second, if there is he's doing a pretty poor job of it. I therefore find such religious "offerings" offensive and pointless - serving more to make the sender feel better than to actually help the recipient.
For example, when my mother-in-law died recently, the majority of family members found the condolences cards with religious messages to be distressing as none of us believe in God. "God" did not make it right, she is not "with the angels" etc etc etc. These messages actually made some of us angry because, if there is a God, he subjected my mother-in-law to 8 years of suffering with cancer and an untimely death at the age of just 61!
I an in no way diminishing the courage and sacrifice of our service personnel - I've had friends killed in these recent conflicts - rather I'm taking a swipe at the "Diana-itis" which seems to have crept into these threads of late.
Perhaps what I'm saying is think before you post - I know that I and all my family members (apart from the one who does believe in God) find such messages hurtful rather than helpful. Think - are the victim and their bereaved family Christian, Muslim, Jew, atheist, pagan etc? YOU may believe in your choice of deity and you may find such messages help YOU, but do they help the bereaved?
OK - vent your spleens now because I know I will have upset plenty of people.
(Edited to sort a couple of typos)
Now I know I'm going to take some hits here but I'm saying it anyway, partly because I want to get it off my chests and partly because I hope that it will stimulate discussion - so here goes:
Is it just me or are some of the condolences threads on this forum turning into "cheesiest post" contests? Some of the comments being made are almost stomach churning with poetry being quoted, pictures of little children praying and, in many ways the worst, religious references which assume that the victim or their family are a) religious in the first place and b) Christian. In an increasingly secular and/or multi-faith society this is ever less the case.
When family or friends die, I don't want or need people to quote chunks of the bible at me or to send messages which tell me that God will make it all OK. For a start, I don't believe that there is a God and second, if there is he's doing a pretty poor job of it. I therefore find such religious "offerings" offensive and pointless - serving more to make the sender feel better than to actually help the recipient.
For example, when my mother-in-law died recently, the majority of family members found the condolences cards with religious messages to be distressing as none of us believe in God. "God" did not make it right, she is not "with the angels" etc etc etc. These messages actually made some of us angry because, if there is a God, he subjected my mother-in-law to 8 years of suffering with cancer and an untimely death at the age of just 61!
I an in no way diminishing the courage and sacrifice of our service personnel - I've had friends killed in these recent conflicts - rather I'm taking a swipe at the "Diana-itis" which seems to have crept into these threads of late.
Perhaps what I'm saying is think before you post - I know that I and all my family members (apart from the one who does believe in God) find such messages hurtful rather than helpful. Think - are the victim and their bereaved family Christian, Muslim, Jew, atheist, pagan etc? YOU may believe in your choice of deity and you may find such messages help YOU, but do they help the bereaved?
OK - vent your spleens now because I know I will have upset plenty of people.
(Edited to sort a couple of typos)
Last edited by moggiee; 31st Aug 2007 at 22:42.
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Moggiee,
you haven't upset me. You are entitled to have your own view on things and the fact that I happen to have a different viewpoint is the joy of living in a free society - a free society gifted to us by those who fought, and died, in the wars of this country.
If you are not related to the hero to whom the condolence thread is dedicated, then pay your respects and move on. Please don't tell the rest of us how to go about expressing our condolences. Indeed, one of those you single out for a 'special mention' lost his son one year ago in two days time. Perhaps a little more consideration on your part too?
I certainly don't wish to start an argument, but surely individuals deal with death in a very individual way. It is not up to others to tell them how they should express their feelings. What ever happened to tolerance and understanding?
Kind regards,
Brian
you haven't upset me. You are entitled to have your own view on things and the fact that I happen to have a different viewpoint is the joy of living in a free society - a free society gifted to us by those who fought, and died, in the wars of this country.
If you are not related to the hero to whom the condolence thread is dedicated, then pay your respects and move on. Please don't tell the rest of us how to go about expressing our condolences. Indeed, one of those you single out for a 'special mention' lost his son one year ago in two days time. Perhaps a little more consideration on your part too?
I certainly don't wish to start an argument, but surely individuals deal with death in a very individual way. It is not up to others to tell them how they should express their feelings. What ever happened to tolerance and understanding?
Kind regards,
Brian
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Brian,
I hope I don't sound as if I'm trying to tell people what to say - I'm trying to get them to think before they say it. At no time is it my intention to belittle the loss and suffering involved - as I say, I have lost friends in recent conflicts and in peacetime flying accidents
My wife was quite badly upset by the religious tone of most of the condolences messages that she received after the death of her mother - as was my father-in-law. Given that (as you say) "individuals deal with death differently", is it right for Christians to smother the message of condolence with Christian imagery or rhetoric when the recipient is NOT a Christian? I would never dream of sending a condolences card featuring a picture of Jesus to a Sikh, Hindu or Muslim.
Quite right that I should pay my respects and move on - this is why this is a separate thread from those condolences threads.
Regards
Moggiee
I hope I don't sound as if I'm trying to tell people what to say - I'm trying to get them to think before they say it. At no time is it my intention to belittle the loss and suffering involved - as I say, I have lost friends in recent conflicts and in peacetime flying accidents
My wife was quite badly upset by the religious tone of most of the condolences messages that she received after the death of her mother - as was my father-in-law. Given that (as you say) "individuals deal with death differently", is it right for Christians to smother the message of condolence with Christian imagery or rhetoric when the recipient is NOT a Christian? I would never dream of sending a condolences card featuring a picture of Jesus to a Sikh, Hindu or Muslim.
Quite right that I should pay my respects and move on - this is why this is a separate thread from those condolences threads.
Regards
Moggiee
moggiee,
A very sensitively worded post, I too agree 100%
I am sure you will be the subject of some pretty apalling rants over this but I am also sure that you are in the majority.
Having lost aircrew mates when I was in and since, I simply do not recognise the sentiments oft displayed here as being of the same Air Force.
A very sensitively worded post, I too agree 100%
I am sure you will be the subject of some pretty apalling rants over this but I am also sure that you are in the majority.
Having lost aircrew mates when I was in and since, I simply do not recognise the sentiments oft displayed here as being of the same Air Force.
I thought it was just me.
There's nothing wrong with expressing condolences and support, but surely it can be done without some of the over-emotive gushing, poetry spouting and emotional diahorrea we've started to see?
Or is it just a symptom of the creeping 'emotionalisation' of wider society, in which we festoon the roadsides with posies after accidents and heap flowers on the makeshift shrines that spring up at the scenes of tragedies, crying and emoting about people we didn't know?
There's nothing wrong with expressing condolences and support, but surely it can be done without some of the over-emotive gushing, poetry spouting and emotional diahorrea we've started to see?
Or is it just a symptom of the creeping 'emotionalisation' of wider society, in which we festoon the roadsides with posies after accidents and heap flowers on the makeshift shrines that spring up at the scenes of tragedies, crying and emoting about people we didn't know?
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Totally concur...although you have to be very careful where mourning is concerned. Balance things with the needs of the family to grieve and for workmates to raise a glass and then get on with what we do.
When its my turn can you just arrange for the bar to be opened (on my mess number) free beer all round, everyone pissed and saying "what a top bloke Pete was" ....
and then get back to work the next morning with massive hangovers and let that be the end of it.
When its my turn can you just arrange for the bar to be opened (on my mess number) free beer all round, everyone pissed and saying "what a top bloke Pete was" ....
and then get back to work the next morning with massive hangovers and let that be the end of it.
"Bodger Lead from Four"
"Go ahead"
"Two's just speared in"
"Bugger. Bodger, renumber!"
"Bodger Two"
"Three"
"Bodger, follow me for tailchase......GO!"
OK - maybe we've come a long way since then, but I understand where moggiee and pr00ne are coming from.
And please, PLEASE no more b***y 'High Flight' on PPRuNE!
"Go ahead"
"Two's just speared in"
"Bugger. Bodger, renumber!"
"Bodger Two"
"Three"
"Bodger, follow me for tailchase......GO!"
OK - maybe we've come a long way since then, but I understand where moggiee and pr00ne are coming from.
And please, PLEASE no more b***y 'High Flight' on PPRuNE!
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Agreed. Rather too much "Diana hysteria" creeping into the show of condolences I feel.
I, too, have lost Christian, Jewish and Muslim mates and I'm certain that all of them would rather be remembered at a bacon butty and beer bash rather than receiving insincere, or inappropriate, references to God.
When my wife died (unexpectedly young) some of the most moving tributes came from my Muslim friends who attended the church service in her memory.
I was a Christian, and although confused by the fact that God "moves in a mysterious way" remain one!
I still believe that much of the public showing of grief, particularly to someone they did not know, is so much over the top that it becomes cheap and tacky.
I, too, have lost Christian, Jewish and Muslim mates and I'm certain that all of them would rather be remembered at a bacon butty and beer bash rather than receiving insincere, or inappropriate, references to God.
When my wife died (unexpectedly young) some of the most moving tributes came from my Muslim friends who attended the church service in her memory.
I was a Christian, and although confused by the fact that God "moves in a mysterious way" remain one!
I still believe that much of the public showing of grief, particularly to someone they did not know, is so much over the top that it becomes cheap and tacky.
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Jesus Christ, I've seen it all now.
I don't care about Diana, and if I don't know the man, I'll keep quiet. But if he's from my Corps, my sqn, if I knew him or if I respected the hell out of him, I'll remember him as I damned well like. And I won't be told otherwise. Jesus Christ. If its not bad enough that my gym has 3 No Smoking signs on the door, now some snotrag is telling me how to grieve. I suppose you'd give unwanted Xmas presents back or red pen badly spelt thank you letters from children? God, have you got nothing else better to do?
We can all cringe at other's posts here.. whether they're thoughts of Sharkey Ward, fitness tests, an aircraft or a unit. But a messageboard is about a Point of View and self expression, and thats subjective. Just as I respect the few who seek to dictate how the remainder of us remember those we knew, or respected, so must they respect how some of us do the same. This isn't a pissing contest, I've done far too much grieving and crying and had far too many sleepless nights and every time we lose a man I get upset as hell, so I'll express myself just as I f#cking well like and if you don't like it, you can f#ck off too. You obviously have far too much time on your small minded hands.
Message ends.
EDITED FOR TASTE.
I don't care about Diana, and if I don't know the man, I'll keep quiet. But if he's from my Corps, my sqn, if I knew him or if I respected the hell out of him, I'll remember him as I damned well like. And I won't be told otherwise. Jesus Christ. If its not bad enough that my gym has 3 No Smoking signs on the door, now some snotrag is telling me how to grieve. I suppose you'd give unwanted Xmas presents back or red pen badly spelt thank you letters from children? God, have you got nothing else better to do?
We can all cringe at other's posts here.. whether they're thoughts of Sharkey Ward, fitness tests, an aircraft or a unit. But a messageboard is about a Point of View and self expression, and thats subjective. Just as I respect the few who seek to dictate how the remainder of us remember those we knew, or respected, so must they respect how some of us do the same. This isn't a pissing contest, I've done far too much grieving and crying and had far too many sleepless nights and every time we lose a man I get upset as hell, so I'll express myself just as I f#cking well like and if you don't like it, you can f#ck off too. You obviously have far too much time on your small minded hands.
Message ends.
EDITED FOR TASTE.
Last edited by Al R; 31st Aug 2007 at 17:59.
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Al R
I don't think anyone is telling you how to grieve. Thank goodness you have the balls to say what you feel...it does help. The bitch is more about the "hangers on" whose public display of grief to somebody they did not know and have never met is not always welcomed and often inappropriate.
However I would never wish to stop them, simply ask that what they say and do is rational.
I don't think anyone is telling you how to grieve. Thank goodness you have the balls to say what you feel...it does help. The bitch is more about the "hangers on" whose public display of grief to somebody they did not know and have never met is not always welcomed and often inappropriate.
However I would never wish to stop them, simply ask that what they say and do is rational.
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Al R,
Another balanced post from you.
I read often but post (very) infrequently, but after seeing your 2nd to last line, I had to reply
W@NKER
Edited to add.
My sentiment remains, but at least you had the decency to delete the offending sentence
Another balanced post from you.
I read often but post (very) infrequently, but after seeing your 2nd to last line, I had to reply
W@NKER
Edited to add.
My sentiment remains, but at least you had the decency to delete the offending sentence
Last edited by Cpl Plod; 31st Aug 2007 at 18:15.
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I did take that out before I read what you posted, it was a line too far, I accept that. But it doesn't make me a ******, but it sums up the polarised thoughts. If someone sent ME a card when I was grieving, I wouldn't care what religion they were.. the fact that they were thinking of me woulf be enough. Muslim, Christian, whatever.. isn't division through religion cause of enough problems today? Christ, what happened to compassion and empathy? If someone asks me how I am, I don't ask them first what religion they are!!
You don't know me, just as I don't know you. But that coming from a Cpl Plod won't cause me too much grief.
You don't know me, just as I don't know you. But that coming from a Cpl Plod won't cause me too much grief.
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Al R
I don't think anyone is telling you how to grieve. Thank goodness you have the balls to say what you feel...it does help. The bitch is more about the "hangers on" whose public display of grief to somebody they did not know and have never met is not always welcomed and often inappropriate.
However I would never wish to stop them, simply ask that what they say and do is rational.
I don't think anyone is telling you how to grieve. Thank goodness you have the balls to say what you feel...it does help. The bitch is more about the "hangers on" whose public display of grief to somebody they did not know and have never met is not always welcomed and often inappropriate.
However I would never wish to stop them, simply ask that what they say and do is rational.
Grief isn't rational, I feel for these guys a damned site more than I do the victims of Potters Bar, even though.. yes, I've travelled on trains and yes, I've grumbled about British Rail. We have an intangible link, and for someone to tell me HERE of all places that I should show grief iaw QR xyz is crap. Again, have they nothing better to do?? I'm stumped. I am almost effervescent with anger at their stupidity and insensitivity.
I may have been imbued with a different doctrine, but I know that you die for your mates and they die for you.. none of this Queen and Country stuff. With Chris, although I never knew him, I wore the same flash as him, with intense pride and loyalty, and I know what he will have gone through before the event. He could have been me, or anyone of those of us who joined up 25 years before. He was dealt a bum hand, but he has done more than ANYTHING anyone from Torpy downwards has done here (who can't even be arsed to say something on the MoD website by the way).. he has lost his life in the service of the Royal f#cking Air Force. And if the small minded amongst us can't even allow that to pass without inferring some kind of rules about how we personally express ourselves, then its a sad day indeed, and you're certainly not part of what I emotionally and mentally hitched aboard.
This has nothing to do with casual observers.. I have that link with him, and at least in the RAF Regiment, we are the same band of brothers, end of story. If someone else can't relate to that, its not my problem, and I certainly don't think that there are any grounds for sniping because of it. And the fact that I have to articulate that, or defend it, is almost obscene.
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This discussion has been done before. The poems and all that guff make me sick, but its a free world as far as I last knew.
If you know someone, fair enough, but random cheesy grieving is a bit poor form really. Why not just do a short message of sympathy if you really feel the need to post??
If Jayteeto ever bites the dust, please feel free to use the time to stop typing the message and down a few Tequila Slammers instead. I reckon that a typical 'High Flight' post could be substituted for at least 5 slammers. Even a cut and paste would allow 2 shots!!
If you know someone, fair enough, but random cheesy grieving is a bit poor form really. Why not just do a short message of sympathy if you really feel the need to post??
If Jayteeto ever bites the dust, please feel free to use the time to stop typing the message and down a few Tequila Slammers instead. I reckon that a typical 'High Flight' post could be substituted for at least 5 slammers. Even a cut and paste would allow 2 shots!!
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it was a line too far, I accept that.
But it doesn't make me a ******,
You are correct that this is a place where any of us should be able to present any point of view we wish. However there should be a line and in my view you crossed that line with a crass comment.
Branch or trade makes no difference to me.
You seem sure we've not met, never caught then
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Al R,
Another balanced post from you.
I read often but post (very) infrequently, but after seeing your 2nd to last line, I had to reply
W@NKER
Edited to add.
My sentiment remains, but at least you had the decency to delete the offending sentence
Another balanced post from you.
I read often but post (very) infrequently, but after seeing your 2nd to last line, I had to reply
W@NKER
Edited to add.
My sentiment remains, but at least you had the decency to delete the offending sentence
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Quote:
it was a line too far, I accept that.
We agree then.
Quote:
But it doesn't make me a ******,
We will have to agree to disagree about that one.
You are correct that this is a place where any of us should be able to present any point of view we wish. However there should be a line and in my view you crossed that line with a crass comment.
Branch or trade makes no difference to me.
You seem sure we've not met, never caught then
it was a line too far, I accept that.
We agree then.
Quote:
But it doesn't make me a ******,
We will have to agree to disagree about that one.
You are correct that this is a place where any of us should be able to present any point of view we wish. However there should be a line and in my view you crossed that line with a crass comment.
Branch or trade makes no difference to me.
You seem sure we've not met, never caught then
And I removed it not because I suddenly decided I didn't agree with it, but out of respect. Something which a few more people around here need to learn.
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moggiee
Well thanks for listening and starting this on a new thread instead of this discussion being on the young Gunners thread. I understand all of you who think comments may be too much, but please also understand Al R. You are entitled to your thoughts but so are others. Many people relate to death in different ways, many people relate these young lads to 'that could be my son', 'is my son next etc'.
moggiee i am sorry that you and your wife found condolences for your mother so upsetting. You may not believe in God, but what those people were saying to you was that through their own faith for a moment in time, they were reflecting on your mum, her life etc. In their prayers they were remembering her.
That is all people are doing on the condolences threads. Cut them some slack, you do not know the connections, you certainly don't know if they are hangers on, you don't know if they lost a son themselves 3 years ago. Not all people are as angry as you were when recieving condolences, but I think that has something to do with your immense loss and your grieving process. When your mum dies the overwhelming question is WHY?? and God seems non existant or either a wicked uncaring being. I am not into religion by the way, but for others it focuses their minds on thinking good on the behalf of those who have lost, and that is where the comfort should be.
Well thanks for listening and starting this on a new thread instead of this discussion being on the young Gunners thread. I understand all of you who think comments may be too much, but please also understand Al R. You are entitled to your thoughts but so are others. Many people relate to death in different ways, many people relate these young lads to 'that could be my son', 'is my son next etc'.
moggiee i am sorry that you and your wife found condolences for your mother so upsetting. You may not believe in God, but what those people were saying to you was that through their own faith for a moment in time, they were reflecting on your mum, her life etc. In their prayers they were remembering her.
That is all people are doing on the condolences threads. Cut them some slack, you do not know the connections, you certainly don't know if they are hangers on, you don't know if they lost a son themselves 3 years ago. Not all people are as angry as you were when recieving condolences, but I think that has something to do with your immense loss and your grieving process. When your mum dies the overwhelming question is WHY?? and God seems non existant or either a wicked uncaring being. I am not into religion by the way, but for others it focuses their minds on thinking good on the behalf of those who have lost, and that is where the comfort should be.
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I, too, have lost Christian, Jewish and Muslim mates and I'm certain that all of them would rather be remembered at a bacon butty and beer bash rather than receiving insincere, or inappropriate, references to God.
