Condolences threads
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You are not a Rock you're a civilian
Seldom: Just five posts ago the OP said:-
Keep it on topic please, chaps - all fighting to be conducted in private.
Out to you...
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Al R - what I do is pick a non-religious condolence message as a play safe option. I express genuine sympathy, in a non-religious way. The old adage is to avoid discussing sex, religion or politics if you are not sure of the views of your correspondent, thereby avoiding causing offence.
By avoiding the subject of religion in the first place I avoid the risk of giving offence - this is the polite thing to do (as you should always tread carefully with regards to the subject). For me to send a religious card/message would be hypocritical as I do not believe in any deity - and if the recipient knows me then they will know that to be the case and as such a religious message would perhaps indicate a lack of sincerity on my part (a bit like the American "have a nice day"). If the recipient then reads some sort of spiritual message into the words that is their choice.
My brother in law and his wife are born again Christians and tend towards the biblical on birthdays, condolences and (perhaps unavoidably) Christmas. I accept that it's important for them to do this because of their faith and that they mean nothing but the best by it. In return, they understand that scripture means absolutely nothing to me and that they are never going to make a Christian out of me! However, in this case we all know each other well enough to avoid giving/taking offence (although at first it DID irk me more than a little).
For the record, I do attend church for weddings, funerals and baptisms - out of respect for the person being buried/married/baptised, not because I believe in God or want people to think that I believe in Him (you'll note the capitialisation of God and Him out of respect for the beliefs of Christians). I do not, however, sing hymns or say prayers as again that would be hypocritical and would therefore insult other peoples' beliefs. Given my choice, I would never set foot in church again in my life (or death!) but do so out of respect for the celebrants at these services. I believe in PEOPLE not God(s) and thus direct my thoughts towards them.
I hope that answers your question.
(Edited for improved clarity - I hope!)
By avoiding the subject of religion in the first place I avoid the risk of giving offence - this is the polite thing to do (as you should always tread carefully with regards to the subject). For me to send a religious card/message would be hypocritical as I do not believe in any deity - and if the recipient knows me then they will know that to be the case and as such a religious message would perhaps indicate a lack of sincerity on my part (a bit like the American "have a nice day"). If the recipient then reads some sort of spiritual message into the words that is their choice.
My brother in law and his wife are born again Christians and tend towards the biblical on birthdays, condolences and (perhaps unavoidably) Christmas. I accept that it's important for them to do this because of their faith and that they mean nothing but the best by it. In return, they understand that scripture means absolutely nothing to me and that they are never going to make a Christian out of me! However, in this case we all know each other well enough to avoid giving/taking offence (although at first it DID irk me more than a little).
For the record, I do attend church for weddings, funerals and baptisms - out of respect for the person being buried/married/baptised, not because I believe in God or want people to think that I believe in Him (you'll note the capitialisation of God and Him out of respect for the beliefs of Christians). I do not, however, sing hymns or say prayers as again that would be hypocritical and would therefore insult other peoples' beliefs. Given my choice, I would never set foot in church again in my life (or death!) but do so out of respect for the celebrants at these services. I believe in PEOPLE not God(s) and thus direct my thoughts towards them.
I hope that answers your question.
(Edited for improved clarity - I hope!)
Last edited by moggiee; 1st Sep 2007 at 00:22.
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You said ""Hell, even us Rocks can see it... "
I said "You are not a Rock you're a civilian "
I thought I was just making you aware of the inaccuracy of your post but if you feel the need to self flagellate in that manner crack on chap
I said "You are not a Rock you're a civilian "
I thought I was just making you aware of the inaccuracy of your post but if you feel the need to self flagellate in that manner crack on chap
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Moggiee said;
Yes the edit for clarity does help, I hope it does with you too. You know, I never thought that there could be 2 sides to the coin. There is room for everyone and their way of expression, is there not, without being judgemental?
"Have a nice day"
Al R - what I do is pick a religious condolence message as a play safe option. I express genuine sympathy, in a religious way. The old adage of avoiding sex, religion or politics if you are not sure of the views of your correspondent, thereby avoiding causing offence, has to be approached with care and aforethought.
By relying on the subject of religion in the first place I avoid the risk of giving offence - this is the polite thing to do (as you should always tread carefully with regards to the subject). For me, not to send a non religious card/message would be hypocritical as I believe in deity - and if the recipient knows me then they will know that to be the case and as such a non religious message would perhaps indicate a lack of sincerity on my part (a bit like the American "have a nice day"). If the recipient then can’t read some sort of spiritual message into the words that is their choice.
My brother in law and his wife are not yet born again Christians and tend away from the biblical on birthdays, condolences and (perhaps avoidably) Christmas. I accept that it's not important for them to do this because of their lack of faith faith and that they mean nothing but the best by it. In return, they don't yet understand that scripture means absolutely everything to me and that they are never going to make a non believerout of me! However, in this case we all know each other well enough to avoid giving/taking offence (although at first it DID irk me more than a little).
For the record, I do not normally attend church for weddings, funerals and baptisms – but out of respect for the person being buried/married/baptized, I do. I sing hymns and say prayers as not to do so would be hypocritical and would therefore insult other peoples' beliefs. Given my choice, I would always set foot in a church but would not so out of respect for the non believers at these services. I believe in God, not people and thus direct my thoughts towards him.
I hope that answers your question.
By relying on the subject of religion in the first place I avoid the risk of giving offence - this is the polite thing to do (as you should always tread carefully with regards to the subject). For me, not to send a non religious card/message would be hypocritical as I believe in deity - and if the recipient knows me then they will know that to be the case and as such a non religious message would perhaps indicate a lack of sincerity on my part (a bit like the American "have a nice day"). If the recipient then can’t read some sort of spiritual message into the words that is their choice.
My brother in law and his wife are not yet born again Christians and tend away from the biblical on birthdays, condolences and (perhaps avoidably) Christmas. I accept that it's not important for them to do this because of their lack of faith faith and that they mean nothing but the best by it. In return, they don't yet understand that scripture means absolutely everything to me and that they are never going to make a non believerout of me! However, in this case we all know each other well enough to avoid giving/taking offence (although at first it DID irk me more than a little).
For the record, I do not normally attend church for weddings, funerals and baptisms – but out of respect for the person being buried/married/baptized, I do. I sing hymns and say prayers as not to do so would be hypocritical and would therefore insult other peoples' beliefs. Given my choice, I would always set foot in a church but would not so out of respect for the non believers at these services. I believe in God, not people and thus direct my thoughts towards him.
I hope that answers your question.
"Have a nice day"
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Al R - editing my quote in your post is pointless, childish and plain rude. Now might be a good time to do a little growing up.
You may not agree with me - that's fine, that's the way that the human race works and ultimately such individuality is good for us. However, your infantile twisting of my words in your post is ignorant and offensive and shows a closed mind. Perhaps you should sit back and reflect upon how silly you are making yourself look.
You asked a question, I answered it (fully I believe). You may not like the answer but you know, sometimes that happens when you ask questions!
(Edit: last paragraph added)
You may not agree with me - that's fine, that's the way that the human race works and ultimately such individuality is good for us. However, your infantile twisting of my words in your post is ignorant and offensive and shows a closed mind. Perhaps you should sit back and reflect upon how silly you are making yourself look.
You asked a question, I answered it (fully I believe). You may not like the answer but you know, sometimes that happens when you ask questions!
(Edit: last paragraph added)
Last edited by moggiee; 1st Sep 2007 at 00:43.
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BBC,
How true. Why can't we just keep things to ourselves eh? I'm not overly or overtly religious.. common sense dictates that the planet wasn't created in 7 days and that there is a missing link, and invariably it might be found in a 3 Wing 40/70 gunshed. But its 'faith' and in this world of ever increasingly being told what to do and what not to do, I'm sure that if I was grieving properly, I'd just be grateful that someone was emotionally at least, with me. I wouldn't try to diminish the value of their thought by filtering out those of the same ideoliogical bias as me.
Moggsters,
Without dragging this painful thread out any further, no one is denying you your faith in lack of faith. But your faith in the lack of faith surely can have no precedence over someone who does have faith. You bravely bite your lip and attend worship on certain occasions and when your family applies it, so is it not a little too much to suggest that you can accept people's condolences at face value when they too, might not be in accord with you? Perhaps people aren't as 'enlightened' as you, perhaps for various reasons, people express themselves in different ways.. but for gods sake, don't have a go at them for it, especially when all they might be about to do, is offer you comfort in the only way they know how.
I would accept that there is a world of difference between being almost hysterical 10 years ago when Diana died, between being mawkish and between muddling through with a set of badly thought out words, as on here. Someone has mentioned not wanting to see 'High Flight' again.. how awful and intolerant is that? How awful that someone couldn't just allow another the chance to express themselves as they know how. It might not be original, but so what?? The Henry V 'Band of Brothers' piece makes me well up just about every time I read it, because thats the person that I now am, I'm afraid. For me, it expresses my respect and feelings and what I feel about a fallen mate (whether or not I knew him) far better than buying a politically correct sympathies card or picking my way through a thesauraus in case I offend.
Whenever I read about Headley Court, or someone in there, like Ben, I feel the same way. I didn't care or ask the staff there what their religious pursuassion was.. I didn't vet them for suitability to as it turn out, offer me comfort or help me along. I was downgraded for about 6 years all in all and I needed as much help, care and yes, love as I could get. That need transcended any thought I might have about of how they might or might not, worship. They were first and foremost people, as was I, so perhaps we should judge people by who they are, and what they do for us, and not so much by what their philosophy on life is. We had our village Summer fete the other week. It was the first time I have ever seen children of so many faiths playing together. It was possibly, the first time that a few of the chilkdren had seen a little black boy and girl.. you know something? They gaped a bit, and got on with the serious act of playing. I'm sure there was a clutch of agnostic and atheist parents too, but strangely enough, no one seemed to mind. Kids can show us much.
Sure, its easy to be cynical and to show how you're at a higher plane by analysing with such incisive clarity how or why people care or express themselves as they do, and we all have our mawkish break point. But in this instance, keep it to yourself mate. If someone does show you love and sympathy when you need it, accept it gratefully. Don't do a critique on it, don't red pen it.. and don't get shirty about it, because there might come a time when you're going to have no one, and believe me, you won't care then where the care comes from. I get a nice tax free and index linked pension from Gordon. It means nothing. If it wasn't for some nasty religious people or some nasty atheists helping me, I wouldn't even be here. So try and see that sometimes people do what they do and what they say because they care, and not because they are trying to offend. And if they don't sit you down beforehand and ask you to fill in a questionare about how you might like to receive your condolences, why not cut them some slack.. they're just doing the best they can mate.
Finally, it has been politely suggested to me that although my deft and elegant manipulation of your words may have resulted in finely crafted prose, it might also be considered bad e-form unless one's manipulation is highlighted. I am happy to now do this and affirm that my only intent was to show you that indeed, there are 2 sides to every coin and you needn't be so evangelical in your approach. If in doing that, I came across as rather too scathing, then I apologise.
How true. Why can't we just keep things to ourselves eh? I'm not overly or overtly religious.. common sense dictates that the planet wasn't created in 7 days and that there is a missing link, and invariably it might be found in a 3 Wing 40/70 gunshed. But its 'faith' and in this world of ever increasingly being told what to do and what not to do, I'm sure that if I was grieving properly, I'd just be grateful that someone was emotionally at least, with me. I wouldn't try to diminish the value of their thought by filtering out those of the same ideoliogical bias as me.
Moggsters,
Without dragging this painful thread out any further, no one is denying you your faith in lack of faith. But your faith in the lack of faith surely can have no precedence over someone who does have faith. You bravely bite your lip and attend worship on certain occasions and when your family applies it, so is it not a little too much to suggest that you can accept people's condolences at face value when they too, might not be in accord with you? Perhaps people aren't as 'enlightened' as you, perhaps for various reasons, people express themselves in different ways.. but for gods sake, don't have a go at them for it, especially when all they might be about to do, is offer you comfort in the only way they know how.
I would accept that there is a world of difference between being almost hysterical 10 years ago when Diana died, between being mawkish and between muddling through with a set of badly thought out words, as on here. Someone has mentioned not wanting to see 'High Flight' again.. how awful and intolerant is that? How awful that someone couldn't just allow another the chance to express themselves as they know how. It might not be original, but so what?? The Henry V 'Band of Brothers' piece makes me well up just about every time I read it, because thats the person that I now am, I'm afraid. For me, it expresses my respect and feelings and what I feel about a fallen mate (whether or not I knew him) far better than buying a politically correct sympathies card or picking my way through a thesauraus in case I offend.
Whenever I read about Headley Court, or someone in there, like Ben, I feel the same way. I didn't care or ask the staff there what their religious pursuassion was.. I didn't vet them for suitability to as it turn out, offer me comfort or help me along. I was downgraded for about 6 years all in all and I needed as much help, care and yes, love as I could get. That need transcended any thought I might have about of how they might or might not, worship. They were first and foremost people, as was I, so perhaps we should judge people by who they are, and what they do for us, and not so much by what their philosophy on life is. We had our village Summer fete the other week. It was the first time I have ever seen children of so many faiths playing together. It was possibly, the first time that a few of the chilkdren had seen a little black boy and girl.. you know something? They gaped a bit, and got on with the serious act of playing. I'm sure there was a clutch of agnostic and atheist parents too, but strangely enough, no one seemed to mind. Kids can show us much.
Sure, its easy to be cynical and to show how you're at a higher plane by analysing with such incisive clarity how or why people care or express themselves as they do, and we all have our mawkish break point. But in this instance, keep it to yourself mate. If someone does show you love and sympathy when you need it, accept it gratefully. Don't do a critique on it, don't red pen it.. and don't get shirty about it, because there might come a time when you're going to have no one, and believe me, you won't care then where the care comes from. I get a nice tax free and index linked pension from Gordon. It means nothing. If it wasn't for some nasty religious people or some nasty atheists helping me, I wouldn't even be here. So try and see that sometimes people do what they do and what they say because they care, and not because they are trying to offend. And if they don't sit you down beforehand and ask you to fill in a questionare about how you might like to receive your condolences, why not cut them some slack.. they're just doing the best they can mate.
Finally, it has been politely suggested to me that although my deft and elegant manipulation of your words may have resulted in finely crafted prose, it might also be considered bad e-form unless one's manipulation is highlighted. I am happy to now do this and affirm that my only intent was to show you that indeed, there are 2 sides to every coin and you needn't be so evangelical in your approach. If in doing that, I came across as rather too scathing, then I apologise.
Last edited by Al R; 1st Sep 2007 at 10:35.
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After going to several funerals of guys I know that recieved condolences on this site I found a distinct corrollation between the families. When chatting to them they all said that they had been comforted and amazed by the warm extent of feeling and comment made on the PPRuNe thread, which close friends had directed them to. Not one of them said 'I thought the poems were a bit much', 'I thought the comments were too gushing' or 'the comments were full of religious rubbish'. They all said words to the effect that 'they were touched by what had been said'. One man who had lost his son looked me in the eye, all choked up, and simply said, 'You Know ..tigs.. what has given me the most comfort is realising just how many friends my son had, all the comments from all the service people. .....'s mum and I have read them through 5 times, it means a lot to know he was so well liked'.
Nuff said really. Some comments may not be to the liking of everybody, but just be thankful you are simply having to endure another posting of 'High flight', rather than seeing it posted on a thread to offer condolences to one of you sons or daughters.
Nuff said really. Some comments may not be to the liking of everybody, but just be thankful you are simply having to endure another posting of 'High flight', rather than seeing it posted on a thread to offer condolences to one of you sons or daughters.
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I am sure that this is a generation thing. You are either "AD"(after Diana) or "BD". If the latter, you would not dream splashing condolences about the demise of someone you had never met in a public forum. It smacks of exhibitionism. And if you did know the deceased well enough to want to intrude on his family's private grief, then why not take up pen and paper and address a letter to his CO for onward transmission if he thought fit. He would be aware of the emotional state of the next of kin. And it need not take much longer than posting on Prune.
Some chap earlier on thought that by posting here you would be communicating your respects to the deceased. Surely, if there is a life hereafter, you would not need a PC to divine the thoughts of the living?
IMHO the Mawkish Tendency in our society is getting quite out of hand. I thought the armed services would be the last bastions defending emotional continence and decent restraint. But it seems the cause is lost. And on a different but parallel topic we now seem to be under pressure to support the apointment of umpteen more assistant coroners to reduce the "backlog" of inquests on repatriated deceased service people. This is a new form of "outdoor relief" for lawyers who are totally unqualified to investigate any military casualty. In my day they would have been invited to go forth and multiply. In two world wars good men died in their hundreds of thousands without any form of inquiry - either military or civil - and their beloved had to come to terms with their grief (achieve "closure" in the current psychobabble) with only a form letter from the War Office. My poor old mother lost both her brothers in 1916 in the army and her first fiancé in the RFC in 1917. And yet she managed to get herself together enough to be a winner in the scramble for husbands in her generation in the 1920s. Can you inagine how long the Prune condolence threads would be (and how large the Corps of Assistant Coroners would be) if we had to suffer carnage again on the scale of 1914-18 (or Bomber Command 1939-45)?
I expect I shall be reviled for being a brutally insensitive and fascist thug descended from Ghengis Kahn. If so, I won't give a XXXX, because I have very quickly been losing empathy with this forum.
Well said, Moggie!
Some chap earlier on thought that by posting here you would be communicating your respects to the deceased. Surely, if there is a life hereafter, you would not need a PC to divine the thoughts of the living?
IMHO the Mawkish Tendency in our society is getting quite out of hand. I thought the armed services would be the last bastions defending emotional continence and decent restraint. But it seems the cause is lost. And on a different but parallel topic we now seem to be under pressure to support the apointment of umpteen more assistant coroners to reduce the "backlog" of inquests on repatriated deceased service people. This is a new form of "outdoor relief" for lawyers who are totally unqualified to investigate any military casualty. In my day they would have been invited to go forth and multiply. In two world wars good men died in their hundreds of thousands without any form of inquiry - either military or civil - and their beloved had to come to terms with their grief (achieve "closure" in the current psychobabble) with only a form letter from the War Office. My poor old mother lost both her brothers in 1916 in the army and her first fiancé in the RFC in 1917. And yet she managed to get herself together enough to be a winner in the scramble for husbands in her generation in the 1920s. Can you inagine how long the Prune condolence threads would be (and how large the Corps of Assistant Coroners would be) if we had to suffer carnage again on the scale of 1914-18 (or Bomber Command 1939-45)?
I expect I shall be reviled for being a brutally insensitive and fascist thug descended from Ghengis Kahn. If so, I won't give a XXXX, because I have very quickly been losing empathy with this forum.
Well said, Moggie!
Yesterday afternoon I took a young holding Flying Officer and a fellow Rock to Tyne Cot cemetery at Passchendaele, and the Menin Gate at Ypres. We did not know any of the fallen either buried there or remembered on the walls yet we all came away with a sense of loss.
As I drove us back to Calais I received a text message from my wife telling me my 16 year old daughter had just been whipped into hospital after a routine eye test in Boots had shown something on her retinas that needed a Dr’s opinion. By the time I got to the hospital a CAT scan had revealed something quite nasty is going on in her brain. She was moved pretty swiftly to a hospital that specialises in neurological matters. My daughter waved goodbye to me on Thursday afternoon and is now fighting a condition that is affecting her sight, hearing and sensation. She is due to start college on Monday and I leave the RAF Regt next Tuesday to begin a new career in the Met Police the same day.
As the news filters through our small unit I have been receiving messages of support and offers of help from all sorts of people. Some are from individuals I neither know particularly well, nor am not normally on the best speaking terms with.
My point; I do not compare my situation to any parent of someone who has been killed serving their country but I am deeply grateful for every single text, phone call and knock at the door from people expressing their feelings. Some are gushing, some are blunt and some are delivered in a manner that is definitely not my style but all mean a lot to me.
How does this relate to this thread? Let people express things their own way, you may not agree with the method or style of delivery but the message will be sincere and should be seen for what the bearer intends.
Regards
ss
PS I leave the Regiment on 11 Sep 07 after 24 years service, but I will always be a Rock – it is a Gunner thing.
As I drove us back to Calais I received a text message from my wife telling me my 16 year old daughter had just been whipped into hospital after a routine eye test in Boots had shown something on her retinas that needed a Dr’s opinion. By the time I got to the hospital a CAT scan had revealed something quite nasty is going on in her brain. She was moved pretty swiftly to a hospital that specialises in neurological matters. My daughter waved goodbye to me on Thursday afternoon and is now fighting a condition that is affecting her sight, hearing and sensation. She is due to start college on Monday and I leave the RAF Regt next Tuesday to begin a new career in the Met Police the same day.
As the news filters through our small unit I have been receiving messages of support and offers of help from all sorts of people. Some are from individuals I neither know particularly well, nor am not normally on the best speaking terms with.
My point; I do not compare my situation to any parent of someone who has been killed serving their country but I am deeply grateful for every single text, phone call and knock at the door from people expressing their feelings. Some are gushing, some are blunt and some are delivered in a manner that is definitely not my style but all mean a lot to me.
How does this relate to this thread? Let people express things their own way, you may not agree with the method or style of delivery but the message will be sincere and should be seen for what the bearer intends.
Regards
ss
PS I leave the Regiment on 11 Sep 07 after 24 years service, but I will always be a Rock – it is a Gunner thing.
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Sittingstress
If I had learned of your daughter's illness through the media, I would have hesitated, as a total stranger to your family, to post a message of sympathy on an open website. Many of my generation, in your position, would regard it as an impertinence.
However, since you have chosen to bring her terrible predicament to the notice of the military aviation world (and the press) in this forum, I do offer her and your family my sincere best wishes for a safe recovery, and my prayers - in church this pm, and not via Bill Gates.
And the best of luck in the Met. I never did believe that "institutionally racist" rubbish!
If I had learned of your daughter's illness through the media, I would have hesitated, as a total stranger to your family, to post a message of sympathy on an open website. Many of my generation, in your position, would regard it as an impertinence.
However, since you have chosen to bring her terrible predicament to the notice of the military aviation world (and the press) in this forum, I do offer her and your family my sincere best wishes for a safe recovery, and my prayers - in church this pm, and not via Bill Gates.
And the best of luck in the Met. I never did believe that "institutionally racist" rubbish!
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Flatus
But as Sitting Stress has effectively said, you have learn't of his families misfortune on the Military forum, Just as you learn of the misfortunes of those families who loose loved ones in the sandpit. You now feel compelled to offer your thoughts in support. Again as SS says it all means a great deal. The moral of the story is, that if you feel compelled to offer words of sympathy to any family suffering misfortune, then do so. You will not recieve any judgemental thoughts from me however gushing you choose to make it, likewise neither I nor anyone else should recieve judgement or critisism from you. When I read of peoples misfortune in the press, I do not know them, and I let the thoughts pass. When I read of people on the Mil forum then if I choose to respond in any way that I feel will effectively reflect my thoughts for the family concerned, I should be able to do so without some of you lot getting all uppitty and starting the 'stiff upper lip brigade', 'pull yourself together man it's not British you know' attitude.
SittingStress
check pm's mate.
But as Sitting Stress has effectively said, you have learn't of his families misfortune on the Military forum, Just as you learn of the misfortunes of those families who loose loved ones in the sandpit. You now feel compelled to offer your thoughts in support. Again as SS says it all means a great deal. The moral of the story is, that if you feel compelled to offer words of sympathy to any family suffering misfortune, then do so. You will not recieve any judgemental thoughts from me however gushing you choose to make it, likewise neither I nor anyone else should recieve judgement or critisism from you. When I read of peoples misfortune in the press, I do not know them, and I let the thoughts pass. When I read of people on the Mil forum then if I choose to respond in any way that I feel will effectively reflect my thoughts for the family concerned, I should be able to do so without some of you lot getting all uppitty and starting the 'stiff upper lip brigade', 'pull yourself together man it's not British you know' attitude.
SittingStress
check pm's mate.
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Sitting Stress,
Sorry to hear about your news. Hope everything turns out positively. If you need to chat PM me.
One of the Petawawa 3.
I understand what the OP is saying and can agree with his sentiments Re: Cheese. As others have said grief is a very personal thing. Whilst I would never dictate on how or when others should grieve I do think some almost grieve "by proxy" as if it is the "done thing". If people want to spout poetry and that is their thing then fair enough......either way it still remains a sad and often tragic event irrespective to what people say afterwards.
SJ
Sorry to hear about your news. Hope everything turns out positively. If you need to chat PM me.
One of the Petawawa 3.
I understand what the OP is saying and can agree with his sentiments Re: Cheese. As others have said grief is a very personal thing. Whilst I would never dictate on how or when others should grieve I do think some almost grieve "by proxy" as if it is the "done thing". If people want to spout poetry and that is their thing then fair enough......either way it still remains a sad and often tragic event irrespective to what people say afterwards.
SJ