Nimrod Information
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Well Done BBC
After watching Panorama, as i'm sure most of us did, it is publicity like this which is needed to highlight what a farcical Air Force we have become!
I know we have a "can do" attitude, and everyone does their damdest to get the job done. But in this day and age it's pretty p15h that we are putting our lives on the line (again) with sub standard equipment!
So what will happen at Kinloss? Nothing................................!
All that will happen is the big wigs will sweep it under the carpet and hope it goes away! But will it ever go away? It's a sorry state of affairs over the whole RAF, and a lot of guys I know are thinking about leaving, or at most will only serve their remaining time until IPP!! That includes me by the way!
It's time that all those big wigs woke up and smelt the fuc£$$g coffee, as it is them who are pushing the Air Force literally "down the tubes!!!"
Anyway i've had my rant, i'm off to type up my CV!!
I know we have a "can do" attitude, and everyone does their damdest to get the job done. But in this day and age it's pretty p15h that we are putting our lives on the line (again) with sub standard equipment!
So what will happen at Kinloss? Nothing................................!
All that will happen is the big wigs will sweep it under the carpet and hope it goes away! But will it ever go away? It's a sorry state of affairs over the whole RAF, and a lot of guys I know are thinking about leaving, or at most will only serve their remaining time until IPP!! That includes me by the way!
It's time that all those big wigs woke up and smelt the fuc£$$g coffee, as it is them who are pushing the Air Force literally "down the tubes!!!"
Anyway i've had my rant, i'm off to type up my CV!!
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I think that the programme was quite well balanced and to the general public
gives a reasonable insight into the Nimrod fleet. What I do find worrying is the RAF's terrible ability to portray itself in a good light . The programme at Selly Oak with it's shocking PR woman did enough damage - the interview with the AOC whilst defensive didn't actually give any reasons for optomism.
Going back twelve years I was told by a Nimrod rigger that the Nimrod 2000/MRA.4 would be a 'jobs for the boys' exercise and would end up with something cobbled together. Whilst I don't dispute the ability of the guys at Warton to produce her - has the wait and cost been worth it?
gives a reasonable insight into the Nimrod fleet. What I do find worrying is the RAF's terrible ability to portray itself in a good light . The programme at Selly Oak with it's shocking PR woman did enough damage - the interview with the AOC whilst defensive didn't actually give any reasons for optomism.
Going back twelve years I was told by a Nimrod rigger that the Nimrod 2000/MRA.4 would be a 'jobs for the boys' exercise and would end up with something cobbled together. Whilst I don't dispute the ability of the guys at Warton to produce her - has the wait and cost been worth it?
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I believe most of those watching would have been bored ****less.
The Nimrod has ' major fuel leaks'. So what ? - how many civilians fly on the Hunter ?
If this had been a programme on a 737 or 57 gushing Fuel every time it took off or landed it would have made noise.
A Thompson 757 takes a bird in an engine and it makes the news.A Nimrod fleet of 15 aircraft chopped to 5 has no interest to a public struggling to pay the council tax.
Such a serious subject such as overstretch, procurement bungling and out and out corruption in the defense industry/civil service is deemed worthy of a 30 minute 'documentary' is what is really beyond the pale. Not to mention the fact that we as a county and a people were dragged into a War without any legitimate reason.
The men on that Nimrod died. Fact. Did they die of gross incompetence and/or blatant corruption is the question. Some bimbo journo asking inane questions to the 'Head of Air Force' is just bloody embarrassing.
It is time for all those that would presume to lead to stand up, stand fast and say "No More". I for one, even as a civilian, would stand behind you.
The Nimrod has ' major fuel leaks'. So what ? - how many civilians fly on the Hunter ?
If this had been a programme on a 737 or 57 gushing Fuel every time it took off or landed it would have made noise.
A Thompson 757 takes a bird in an engine and it makes the news.A Nimrod fleet of 15 aircraft chopped to 5 has no interest to a public struggling to pay the council tax.
Such a serious subject such as overstretch, procurement bungling and out and out corruption in the defense industry/civil service is deemed worthy of a 30 minute 'documentary' is what is really beyond the pale. Not to mention the fact that we as a county and a people were dragged into a War without any legitimate reason.
The men on that Nimrod died. Fact. Did they die of gross incompetence and/or blatant corruption is the question. Some bimbo journo asking inane questions to the 'Head of Air Force' is just bloody embarrassing.
It is time for all those that would presume to lead to stand up, stand fast and say "No More". I for one, even as a civilian, would stand behind you.
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Spot on ExRAFradar,
civvies, in the majority, could not give a flying f*&k and tonights panorama will not change that mindset at all, especially with Vine's cynical approach to journalism.
Until the Chiefs stand up and say 'enough is enough', the RAF is buggered. Torpy and his cronnies will never stand up the ministers because none of this directly effects them, short term posts, long term pensions.
I'm out soon & cannot wait to leave a service that simply does not care (I base this on my own experiences along with those of fellow servicemen) about the lives of its personnel.
Disgraceful, unloyal behaviour from those with their air officer pensions in the bag.
civvies, in the majority, could not give a flying f*&k and tonights panorama will not change that mindset at all, especially with Vine's cynical approach to journalism.
Until the Chiefs stand up and say 'enough is enough', the RAF is buggered. Torpy and his cronnies will never stand up the ministers because none of this directly effects them, short term posts, long term pensions.
I'm out soon & cannot wait to leave a service that simply does not care (I base this on my own experiences along with those of fellow servicemen) about the lives of its personnel.
Disgraceful, unloyal behaviour from those with their air officer pensions in the bag.
Last edited by Tombstone; 4th Jun 2007 at 23:28.
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I think that if there are any more incidents worthy of an IR, and involving fuel/hot air piping, with or without AAR then it may be time to consider one's position or attitude re "personal risk management"!
You have to trust the system I guess - and the Lineys in particular.
You have to trust the system I guess - and the Lineys in particular.
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UAVs
One of the points brought out in the programme was that the Predator could do 80% of the job of the Nimrod - I disagree. As the Nimrod has no SAR capability, nor the large number of analysts required to support a Predator mission it's the other way around.
However, when the Dear Leader stated that we'd bought 3 Predators he forgot to mention two important facts:
1. We haven't bought any of the analytical equipment for the imagery that it collects
2. We can't bring it to the UK to train (CAA issues notwithstanding) as we can't afford to pay the VAT on them
However, when the Dear Leader stated that we'd bought 3 Predators he forgot to mention two important facts:
1. We haven't bought any of the analytical equipment for the imagery that it collects
2. We can't bring it to the UK to train (CAA issues notwithstanding) as we can't afford to pay the VAT on them
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As a civilian viewer, I thought the bereaved family focus was gratuitous, whistleblower comments (spoken by an actor) revealing and the prog quickly focused on the refueling pipework as the likely suspect
IFR was never in the original airframe design; the 1982 'Falklands mod' was a Woodford achievement in the time available, IMO comparable to Apollo 13
Didn't HMG consider buying US AWACs before deciding on new Nimrod airframes & upgraded electronics?
Temp changes (stress) in current theatre of operations may be significant on fuel line seals (Challenger O rings spring to mind)
At what transfer pressure is IFR conducted?
I suggest that this topic was more appropriate to Air Crash Investigations than Panorama
As for Predator, the RAF may want to commandeer the ASBO drones from Merseyside Police as a cost-saving measure
IFR was never in the original airframe design; the 1982 'Falklands mod' was a Woodford achievement in the time available, IMO comparable to Apollo 13
Didn't HMG consider buying US AWACs before deciding on new Nimrod airframes & upgraded electronics?
Temp changes (stress) in current theatre of operations may be significant on fuel line seals (Challenger O rings spring to mind)
At what transfer pressure is IFR conducted?
I suggest that this topic was more appropriate to Air Crash Investigations than Panorama
As for Predator, the RAF may want to commandeer the ASBO drones from Merseyside Police as a cost-saving measure
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If nothing else I hope last night's programme helped give a few senior officers, should they be trying to do nothing but cover their asses, difficulty in sleeping for a few nights.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Nov71 <<Didn't HMG consider buying US AWACs before deciding on new Nimrod airframes & upgraded electronics?>>
Are confusing airframes and missions?
HMG certainly considered buying AWACs but Maggie got p
d off at the delays in NATO decision making and decided on a DIY solution with the Nimrod 3, the AEW conversion of the Nimrod 1 and some new airframes. That programme failed and we bought the Boeing product for airborne early warning.
The alternative to the Nimrod, at the time, was the Lockheed product, the P3 or the Dassault Atlantic Mk 1. Their airships insisted on 4 engines to that ruled out the Atlantic.
Are confusing airframes and missions?
HMG certainly considered buying AWACs but Maggie got p
d off at the delays in NATO decision making and decided on a DIY solution with the Nimrod 3, the AEW conversion of the Nimrod 1 and some new airframes. That programme failed and we bought the Boeing product for airborne early warning.The alternative to the Nimrod, at the time, was the Lockheed product, the P3 or the Dassault Atlantic Mk 1. Their airships insisted on 4 engines to that ruled out the Atlantic.
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Just managed to watch the programme via the wonders of the internet.
Overall, i thought it came across well - i'm not a Nimrod specialist but i'm told that programme, if anything, was optimistic on its serviceability. Let's face it, they could have taken any of our current procurements and ripped the whole thing to shreds on many levels but they chose not to get too political.
CAS looked uneasy, maybe, but wouldn't it just have been reassuring to hear some honest words about what he's trying to achieve and the hurdles he faces with the Treasury and Bliar's outer office?
I still can't understand how any of this can be bad for the forces (as some here seem to think)...it may make our equipment look bad, but that's just how it is - and anything that highlights the obstacles all of the Forces face is a good thing in my book.
Uncle G
Overall, i thought it came across well - i'm not a Nimrod specialist but i'm told that programme, if anything, was optimistic on its serviceability. Let's face it, they could have taken any of our current procurements and ripped the whole thing to shreds on many levels but they chose not to get too political.
CAS looked uneasy, maybe, but wouldn't it just have been reassuring to hear some honest words about what he's trying to achieve and the hurdles he faces with the Treasury and Bliar's outer office?
I still can't understand how any of this can be bad for the forces (as some here seem to think)...it may make our equipment look bad, but that's just how it is - and anything that highlights the obstacles all of the Forces face is a good thing in my book.
Uncle G
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What ever we thought of the Panorama programme last night (and I didn't think it was too bad for the BBC) the fact remains that until we have leaders who have the balls to stand up and say 'NO MORE' to the PM or Def Sec, then it will all have been a complete waste of time and effort.
If ever anyone looked 5hit-scared last night, it was Glenn Torpy. Some call it 'uncomfortable' but I know the CAS from years gone by, and he was embarrassed, scared and worried, believe me!
Glenn, those of us that know you, admire you as a leader and a great aviator, but the time has come Sir when you must stand up and be judged as a man. When the results of the BoI are announced, have the courage to stand up and say, in public, NO MORE. Please do that for the families and friends of CXX Crew3, and for the guys on the jet as well, please.
You will not only have the 100% support of the British Public, and every serviceman and woman in the UK Armed Forces, but you will be remembered for ever as a true leader of this sad, sorry and pathetic Air Force, and the man who said 'No More'
TD. I doubt if you or the other families took much comfort from last night, but if nothing else it brought it back into the public spotlight, where it deserves to be and stay, until you get the answers you seek. I hope your wait is over soon Sir.
TSM
If ever anyone looked 5hit-scared last night, it was Glenn Torpy. Some call it 'uncomfortable' but I know the CAS from years gone by, and he was embarrassed, scared and worried, believe me!
Glenn, those of us that know you, admire you as a leader and a great aviator, but the time has come Sir when you must stand up and be judged as a man. When the results of the BoI are announced, have the courage to stand up and say, in public, NO MORE. Please do that for the families and friends of CXX Crew3, and for the guys on the jet as well, please.
You will not only have the 100% support of the British Public, and every serviceman and woman in the UK Armed Forces, but you will be remembered for ever as a true leader of this sad, sorry and pathetic Air Force, and the man who said 'No More'
TD. I doubt if you or the other families took much comfort from last night, but if nothing else it brought it back into the public spotlight, where it deserves to be and stay, until you get the answers you seek. I hope your wait is over soon Sir.
TSM
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Whole heartedly agree Mr TSM. TD, watching the clip of the memorial service bought a lump to my throat. I cannot even begin to imagine how you and all the other families must feel, Every Damn Day. As always, thoughts and prayers. If there is anything more you want us to do then PM me. To anyone reading this, are you aware of a cycle ride from J o' G to LE?? Its in memorial for the crew and in aid of RAF widows. PM's to TD for the link.
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I think the BBC did a reasonably good job of emphasising the problems entrenched within the Nimrod MR2 fleet. Yes there were inaccuracies, and yes there was selective editing, but the message was very accurate.
Robbing and poor serviceability has been a part of life on many fleets for years, but it is the extent that this applies to the Nimrod force at the moment that is raising alarm. An inadequately funded, understaffed, over-tasked RAF, with increasingly low morale, cannot continue in its present condition, hence the obvious nervousness seen by CAS. Add into the equation an old, heavily-used aircraft that is well past its sell-by date and you are asking for trouble.
The elastic band is about to snap, if it hasn't already.
Robbing and poor serviceability has been a part of life on many fleets for years, but it is the extent that this applies to the Nimrod force at the moment that is raising alarm. An inadequately funded, understaffed, over-tasked RAF, with increasingly low morale, cannot continue in its present condition, hence the obvious nervousness seen by CAS. Add into the equation an old, heavily-used aircraft that is well past its sell-by date and you are asking for trouble.
The elastic band is about to snap, if it hasn't already.
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Panorama
In last night's program, the CAS agreed that there have been 25 fuel leaks in the last six months, and each one is being looked at. But in reality there has probably been many more. Let's look at the data we have received fron Sec of State recently, and posted on pprune:
(1) Annual number of fuel leaks over past 10 years; approx 4 per 50 flying hours.
(2) Number of hours being flown by fleet; approx 10,000 per year (5,000 per 6 month period).
Now it is not rocket science to do a little maths and work out 5,000/50 x 4, and you get 400. NOT 25.
So perhaps the CAS was talking only about fuel leaks that were serious enough for incident reports to have been raised. Come on guys lets have the true story.
DV
(1) Annual number of fuel leaks over past 10 years; approx 4 per 50 flying hours.
(2) Number of hours being flown by fleet; approx 10,000 per year (5,000 per 6 month period).
Now it is not rocket science to do a little maths and work out 5,000/50 x 4, and you get 400. NOT 25.
So perhaps the CAS was talking only about fuel leaks that were serious enough for incident reports to have been raised. Come on guys lets have the true story.
DV
Last edited by Distant Voice; 5th Jun 2007 at 09:48.
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It's not his fault, and I feel extremely sorry for all those in senior positions who have to "live with the results of a previous administration", but it must surely be time to say "Enough is Enough". If someone did, it would be a huge boost to morale, knowing that someone does care about something other than their pension!
Red On, Green On
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It's not his fault
While he can't fix the 10 year delay for the replacement, or even magic up an inventory of spares, he could have turned the job down.
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I took my daughter to see Pirates of the Caribbean at the weekend.
Half way through she says 'They're making it up as they go along'
After 3 hours, she said 'Is that it? Is that how it ends?'
I watched Panorama last night and said exactly the same to Mrs Smiter, only it was just 30 mins!
The programme told us:
1. The aircraft's old and has major problems
2. People are generally unhappy and some are leaving
3. The answer is Predator x 3 ( oh okay, if you say so)
On the plus side, the wives and girlfriend came across very well - articulate and genuine.
Who were the others?
Apart from AVM Robinson Retd,
- Thats the whole point!
Not once did I hear the words Gordon Brown. As Chancellor he has systematically starved the Armed Forces of the money and resources to fulfil all the commitments his Boss has demanded.
Thats why the Nimrod force and pretty much every element of our Armed Forces are in the state they are.
If ever there was a modern day buccaneer, look no further than your next Prime Minister - wake up Britain!
And thats why I didn't rate Panorama last night. But I forgot, its the BBC, it's dumbed down. Thats what it does.
Half way through she says 'They're making it up as they go along'
After 3 hours, she said 'Is that it? Is that how it ends?'
I watched Panorama last night and said exactly the same to Mrs Smiter, only it was just 30 mins!
The programme told us:
1. The aircraft's old and has major problems
2. People are generally unhappy and some are leaving
3. The answer is Predator x 3 ( oh okay, if you say so)
On the plus side, the wives and girlfriend came across very well - articulate and genuine.
Who were the others?
Apart from AVM Robinson Retd,
full pint job with half-pint resources
Not once did I hear the words Gordon Brown. As Chancellor he has systematically starved the Armed Forces of the money and resources to fulfil all the commitments his Boss has demanded.
Thats why the Nimrod force and pretty much every element of our Armed Forces are in the state they are.
If ever there was a modern day buccaneer, look no further than your next Prime Minister - wake up Britain!
And thats why I didn't rate Panorama last night. But I forgot, its the BBC, it's dumbed down. Thats what it does.
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Green Hat/Yellow Hat
You are right, it's not his fault, and I too feel a little sorry for Glenn, he is a top chap. However, its never too late to stand up and be counted!
His pension is assured, his place in RAF History is assured, perhaps its time that his position in British History as a whole becomes assured, and he does the honourable thing and resign over the whole sad state of our Air Force.
TSM
You are right, it's not his fault, and I too feel a little sorry for Glenn, he is a top chap. However, its never too late to stand up and be counted!
His pension is assured, his place in RAF History is assured, perhaps its time that his position in British History as a whole becomes assured, and he does the honourable thing and resign over the whole sad state of our Air Force.
TSM
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Nimrod and Panorama
Lasts nights programme a lot of truth in what was said. Don't think BOI will differ much
£2 Billion over budget + intended outlay, would have paid for some gucci boeings fitted as required but no government would be applauded by the public for that.
ROV's US public more willing to allow big budgets to their military, always have and always will.
Fuel leaks - exist on all aircraft modern or RAF (physical properties of materials)
Some embellishment/journalistic licence but what do you expect she's trying to get noticed.
Shouldn't have happened, but with all the fleets the downturn in manning and lack of spares married with the desired tasking sadly something gave.
Nothings changing is the saddest thing of all
£2 Billion over budget + intended outlay, would have paid for some gucci boeings fitted as required but no government would be applauded by the public for that.
ROV's US public more willing to allow big budgets to their military, always have and always will.
Fuel leaks - exist on all aircraft modern or RAF (physical properties of materials)
Some embellishment/journalistic licence but what do you expect she's trying to get noticed.
Shouldn't have happened, but with all the fleets the downturn in manning and lack of spares married with the desired tasking sadly something gave.
Nothings changing is the saddest thing of all