Would you recommend a career in the military
Well without wishing to be a killjoy, I would have to say no I wouldn't recommend it these days.
I joined up almost 10 years ago, and like you, I lay awake the days before I went to IOT wondering if I was doing the right thing. I came to the conclusion that Ithis was something I had always wanted to do and so would regret it later on in life if I didn't and put it down to pre-IOT nerves.
But now, all I can see is the best aspects of military life being slowly eroded and replaced by the accountants and various civilian organizations that are gradually creeping into the armed forces sphere of influence. I can't see much in the way of leadership - their Airships are being strangely quiet whilst the army and navy are becoming increasingly vocal about the conditions we are being forced to endure.
Our political masters lie through their teeth - and infuriatingly get away with it every single time - and don't value us one iota. Yes the money is ok (you will never be rich) although taking the levels of responsibility you will have and comparing them with a civilian management/execs with comparable levels (not types) or responsibility, then we are grossly underpaid.However, one thing that you need to remember is that even the biggest chimp in the RAF will shine in civi street. It will give you an incredible springboard to the future, and whilst you may not realise it at the time, the ability to make life and death decisions under the highest levels of pressure imaginable is a quality rarely found in civi street.
The question is, do you think you can see through an ever growing pile of crap to get to the ever shrinking pile of diamonds at the bottom? If so - then the RAF is probably for you. But hand on my heart, given the current state of affairs, no I can't recomment it. But you are young, give it a try, you have nothing to lose and you might just enjoy it as I once did.
I joined up almost 10 years ago, and like you, I lay awake the days before I went to IOT wondering if I was doing the right thing. I came to the conclusion that Ithis was something I had always wanted to do and so would regret it later on in life if I didn't and put it down to pre-IOT nerves.
But now, all I can see is the best aspects of military life being slowly eroded and replaced by the accountants and various civilian organizations that are gradually creeping into the armed forces sphere of influence. I can't see much in the way of leadership - their Airships are being strangely quiet whilst the army and navy are becoming increasingly vocal about the conditions we are being forced to endure.
Our political masters lie through their teeth - and infuriatingly get away with it every single time - and don't value us one iota. Yes the money is ok (you will never be rich) although taking the levels of responsibility you will have and comparing them with a civilian management/execs with comparable levels (not types) or responsibility, then we are grossly underpaid.However, one thing that you need to remember is that even the biggest chimp in the RAF will shine in civi street. It will give you an incredible springboard to the future, and whilst you may not realise it at the time, the ability to make life and death decisions under the highest levels of pressure imaginable is a quality rarely found in civi street.
The question is, do you think you can see through an ever growing pile of crap to get to the ever shrinking pile of diamonds at the bottom? If so - then the RAF is probably for you. But hand on my heart, given the current state of affairs, no I can't recomment it. But you are young, give it a try, you have nothing to lose and you might just enjoy it as I once did.
Last edited by Melchett01; 25th Feb 2007 at 16:05.
Slight thread creep but Melchett01 your comment 'It will give you an incredible springboard to the future, and whilst you may not realise it at the time, the ability to make life and death decisions under the highest levels of pressure imaginable is a quality rarely found in civi street.' does this mean that those who have left the services left this ability behind or that they do not need this attribute once they have left the services.
I joined up as groundcrew but enjoyed my time, saw plenty of places, posted a lot, been to Falklands, Ireland and Gulf War 91 to name but a few. But towards the latter part of my career (the nineties) the RAF life started changing for the worse and no matter how much we bleated about what the changes will do, the management took no notice, so my response would have to be read these forums, ask people you know and then make your own mind up as you are the only one who can decide.
I joined up as groundcrew but enjoyed my time, saw plenty of places, posted a lot, been to Falklands, Ireland and Gulf War 91 to name but a few. But towards the latter part of my career (the nineties) the RAF life started changing for the worse and no matter how much we bleated about what the changes will do, the management took no notice, so my response would have to be read these forums, ask people you know and then make your own mind up as you are the only one who can decide.
Last edited by Exrigger; 25th Feb 2007 at 16:25. Reason: Added my view of the services
Ex,
No it means what it says - your average candidate for finance, manufacturing - pick a sector - will not have had the exerience of making those sorts of decisions and the potential repercussions of getting them wrong. Just because you leave the mob, it doesn't mean that you don't take the experience of making those decisions with you. And should you leave and then decided to jettison all the skills you have picked up, then that's your choice but probably not a good one.
Compared to the average civi st newby Joe's age, whose biggest worry is getting the bosses tea order right or maybe passing a series of accountancy exams (which can be retaken without anyone dying if failed), the average service person will pick up experience involving far far harsher consequences if they fail. And that is most definitely a valuable experience for the future. If nothing else, it allows you to put a lot of seemingly important but in the end trivial mistakes into perspective.
No it means what it says - your average candidate for finance, manufacturing - pick a sector - will not have had the exerience of making those sorts of decisions and the potential repercussions of getting them wrong. Just because you leave the mob, it doesn't mean that you don't take the experience of making those decisions with you. And should you leave and then decided to jettison all the skills you have picked up, then that's your choice but probably not a good one.
Compared to the average civi st newby Joe's age, whose biggest worry is getting the bosses tea order right or maybe passing a series of accountancy exams (which can be retaken without anyone dying if failed), the average service person will pick up experience involving far far harsher consequences if they fail. And that is most definitely a valuable experience for the future. If nothing else, it allows you to put a lot of seemingly important but in the end trivial mistakes into perspective.
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PVR Then!
Joe,
Do not be put off by all the whiners - they have an option after all.
Once you can get your head around the Service (which ever one you choose, thay all have their own foibles!!) 'way of life' you can manage almost anything they hit you with. We are, after all, all volunteers.
After 21 years I am still smiling and enjoying my life in the services and eager for more. And that includes all the camping trips enforced by Mr Bliar and all the other nasty add ons we get nailed for. However, by buggery I have had some fun!!
If all the poor lambs who have posted on here about the poor this and the cr*p that, they must be very naive to think all would be rosy in Britains front garden when they joined up. Its what we do, why do you think we are given a rifle for heavens sake?!?
Not that I always agree with our Govts foreign policy however, I do what I am paid to do. If people have a problem with that, then why join up? Sure, we have our procurement and management problems and the sad losses we see almost daily (I, too have lost close and good friends) certainly expose and sharpen the failings at all levels from the Government down.
As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, aim high and go for it. Do not be put off by individual perception. The place is full of people complaining about pay, conditions, Op tours etc but they all see the bottom line and carry on. To them I say carry on normal jogging or vacate the building.
Think long and hard about joining - its not always 'jump in and take her to heaven 5 times a day and back for tea and medals' but it is a great way of life and you will learn skills and make friends that will last a lifetime.
Go for it. Sure, things have changed but hasn't the world?
ISITD
LFOGOOTFW
Do not be put off by all the whiners - they have an option after all.
Once you can get your head around the Service (which ever one you choose, thay all have their own foibles!!) 'way of life' you can manage almost anything they hit you with. We are, after all, all volunteers.
After 21 years I am still smiling and enjoying my life in the services and eager for more. And that includes all the camping trips enforced by Mr Bliar and all the other nasty add ons we get nailed for. However, by buggery I have had some fun!!
If all the poor lambs who have posted on here about the poor this and the cr*p that, they must be very naive to think all would be rosy in Britains front garden when they joined up. Its what we do, why do you think we are given a rifle for heavens sake?!?
Not that I always agree with our Govts foreign policy however, I do what I am paid to do. If people have a problem with that, then why join up? Sure, we have our procurement and management problems and the sad losses we see almost daily (I, too have lost close and good friends) certainly expose and sharpen the failings at all levels from the Government down.
As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, aim high and go for it. Do not be put off by individual perception. The place is full of people complaining about pay, conditions, Op tours etc but they all see the bottom line and carry on. To them I say carry on normal jogging or vacate the building.
Think long and hard about joining - its not always 'jump in and take her to heaven 5 times a day and back for tea and medals' but it is a great way of life and you will learn skills and make friends that will last a lifetime.
Go for it. Sure, things have changed but hasn't the world?
ISITD
LFOGOOTFW
Melchett01 thanks for that, I was not sure if I had read/understood what you had written correctly, but I had.
I_stood_in_the_door, I agree with most of what you say but a lot of the people on here joined up before you and everything was 'rosy in Britains front garden when they joined up', most of us also did what we volunteered for without complaint and also had a lot of fun on the way. But most people are merely saying that the climate in the forces has changed drastically now, so we are not in a position to advise on wether it is a good idea for mr x or y etc to join or not join. With regards to 'If people have a problem with that, then why join up?' again agreed, but what of the people that joined up before it changed, as has been said then they should leave, which is what a lot are doing.
I_stood_in_the_door, I agree with most of what you say but a lot of the people on here joined up before you and everything was 'rosy in Britains front garden when they joined up', most of us also did what we volunteered for without complaint and also had a lot of fun on the way. But most people are merely saying that the climate in the forces has changed drastically now, so we are not in a position to advise on wether it is a good idea for mr x or y etc to join or not join. With regards to 'If people have a problem with that, then why join up?' again agreed, but what of the people that joined up before it changed, as has been said then they should leave, which is what a lot are doing.
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The RAF is still the only place that you, the British citizen, can fly a fast jet.
Unless you're R Branson Jr.
I agree with the others, including Clockwork Mouse.
ps. I am fairly critical of many RAF things, but can unreservedly say that if you can have as much fun as I did in my first 10-12 yrs, then it'll be worth it. Sadly, for many of us the novelty fades and wears off all together, but that would probably have happened in any job.
Just go for it. You only live once.
Unless you're R Branson Jr.
I agree with the others, including Clockwork Mouse.
ps. I am fairly critical of many RAF things, but can unreservedly say that if you can have as much fun as I did in my first 10-12 yrs, then it'll be worth it. Sadly, for many of us the novelty fades and wears off all together, but that would probably have happened in any job.
Just go for it. You only live once.
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T*AT or TWOT
ExRig,
It seems that the majority of problems have been highlighted since T*AT or TWOT came to be.
How many people have since signed up during T*AT/TWOT and still have the nerve to gripe. Problems and failings have been well publicised since it kicked off and during TWOT/T*AT.
That is my problem - many of the peeps joined (with their parents consent - theres plenty of them moaning too) with a view to a '9 to 5' job - something you and I know it isn't.
Apologies to all those that joined before me but I believe in all I posted.
If others don't then thats their right. Why we live in a democracy, no?
ISITD
LFOGOOTFW
It seems that the majority of problems have been highlighted since T*AT or TWOT came to be.
How many people have since signed up during T*AT/TWOT and still have the nerve to gripe. Problems and failings have been well publicised since it kicked off and during TWOT/T*AT.
That is my problem - many of the peeps joined (with their parents consent - theres plenty of them moaning too) with a view to a '9 to 5' job - something you and I know it isn't.
Apologies to all those that joined before me but I believe in all I posted.
If others don't then thats their right. Why we live in a democracy, no?
ISITD
LFOGOOTFW
ISITD, Firstly thanks for your reply and again I agree with what you say, my father actually tried to stop me joining even though as a kid (Aden & Nairobi which was a wonderful time for me) and he himself enjoyed the life.
I know I am probably going to regret this, as these are acronyms I have not heard before (and I am to tired to work them out), but what is TWOT/T*AT, it will probably be obvious when I know.
I know I am probably going to regret this, as these are acronyms I have not heard before (and I am to tired to work them out), but what is TWOT/T*AT, it will probably be obvious when I know.
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Uncle Sam
ExRig,
T@AT came first - The War Against Terror.
Then our delightful cousins noticed their mistake and it became TWOT - The War On Terror. Or something like that!!
ISITD
LFOGOOTFW
T@AT came first - The War Against Terror.
Then our delightful cousins noticed their mistake and it became TWOT - The War On Terror. Or something like that!!
ISITD
LFOGOOTFW
and as I said its obvious now you have told me, cheers.
Joe
You must also consider the ethical apects.. [I say this as someone who served a grateful nation as aircrew for over 20 years albeit some time ago.]
Do you want to be placed in a position where you can be sent into either of two war zones in conflicts which we cannot win ?
Once you sign on you have little or no control over what you do or where you go
You must also consider the ethical apects.. [I say this as someone who served a grateful nation as aircrew for over 20 years albeit some time ago.]
Do you want to be placed in a position where you can be sent into either of two war zones in conflicts which we cannot win ?
Once you sign on you have little or no control over what you do or where you go
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
NRU74
You make a useful point
In what are now called Wars of Choice.
WOC for the politician however not for the soldier. The serviceman has since the Second World War been involved in many conflicts or potential conflicts most of which could not have been foreseen when they joined the services. Some of these too could have been WOC.
Korea was, in a way, a WOC. Then Suez. Kuwait (1961). Indonesian Confrontation was also probably a WOC as it furthered political interests. Aden, Kenya, Rhodesia, Belize - all colonial actions and not foreseen by those already in the services when they blew up.
Only the length stability of the Cold War gave us any certainty of a mission during our careers.
No, anyone joining now is joining a mystery tour that may not include Iraq or Afghanistan!
You make a useful point
Do you want to be placed in a position where you can be sent into either of two war zones in conflicts which we cannot win ?
WOC for the politician however not for the soldier. The serviceman has since the Second World War been involved in many conflicts or potential conflicts most of which could not have been foreseen when they joined the services. Some of these too could have been WOC.
Korea was, in a way, a WOC. Then Suez. Kuwait (1961). Indonesian Confrontation was also probably a WOC as it furthered political interests. Aden, Kenya, Rhodesia, Belize - all colonial actions and not foreseen by those already in the services when they blew up.
Only the length stability of the Cold War gave us any certainty of a mission during our careers.
No, anyone joining now is joining a mystery tour that may not include Iraq or Afghanistan!
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and back to the thread
(not that the diversion wasn't amusing)
Joe
I'm in the process of leaving at my 16/38 point. Would I do it all again? Damn right. The RAF is a vocation and you sound as motivated as most of us once were about Service life: you would get such a wide range of experiences and responsibiliy that when you talk to your civvy friends in 4 or 5 years time you will wonder how the hell they get themselves out of bed in the morning.
So why then do you read all the negativity? Don't mean to be patronising but when I joined up I was probably like you are - full of fire and ready to change the world: I could not have given 2-hoots about how long I was on Det, whether or not my family got free dental treatment, how many secondary duties I had to do, or even what the pension was. The bitter 'old' scapers should, I recall thinking, accept the world had changed and get out so us young guns could continue to drive it forward. Sadly though the frantic pace of life which I found exciting when younger became a sapping bind of constant change as I get older. For me, I noticed that when I had a family to consider then I suddenly did care whether I did not see them for weeks and months on end, I did care when they are bottom of the local NHS Dental waiting list for the worst dentist in the area, I did care that my time at home was being spent running clubs and societies for others to enjoy while I was away, and I really did care about my pension.
Slowly but surely, I found was in danger of become the bitter old dinosaur I used to bitch about. I had reached a crossroads when I could either continue to believe that while the emperor is not entirely clothed he is worth accepting for all the great things he brings me (job stability, pension, decent salary, taking a morning off to see my kid in the school nativity play, like minded colleagues and neighbours, leaving my car/house unlocked behind the wire, etc etc) or I could note he was start b*llock naked and would never again respect him the way I used to. I suspect it always was this way and that many people reach a point of weariness circa the 12 year option point when they either persevere onwards or decide enough is enough - which is probably why there are option points.
Fortunately each new generation has within it a group of fit, motivated and capable people who will always be attracted to military life. Seems to me you are at a crossroads now: follow your heart or always think 'what if'.
Good luck
RD
Joe
I'm in the process of leaving at my 16/38 point. Would I do it all again? Damn right. The RAF is a vocation and you sound as motivated as most of us once were about Service life: you would get such a wide range of experiences and responsibiliy that when you talk to your civvy friends in 4 or 5 years time you will wonder how the hell they get themselves out of bed in the morning.
So why then do you read all the negativity? Don't mean to be patronising but when I joined up I was probably like you are - full of fire and ready to change the world: I could not have given 2-hoots about how long I was on Det, whether or not my family got free dental treatment, how many secondary duties I had to do, or even what the pension was. The bitter 'old' scapers should, I recall thinking, accept the world had changed and get out so us young guns could continue to drive it forward. Sadly though the frantic pace of life which I found exciting when younger became a sapping bind of constant change as I get older. For me, I noticed that when I had a family to consider then I suddenly did care whether I did not see them for weeks and months on end, I did care when they are bottom of the local NHS Dental waiting list for the worst dentist in the area, I did care that my time at home was being spent running clubs and societies for others to enjoy while I was away, and I really did care about my pension.
Slowly but surely, I found was in danger of become the bitter old dinosaur I used to bitch about. I had reached a crossroads when I could either continue to believe that while the emperor is not entirely clothed he is worth accepting for all the great things he brings me (job stability, pension, decent salary, taking a morning off to see my kid in the school nativity play, like minded colleagues and neighbours, leaving my car/house unlocked behind the wire, etc etc) or I could note he was start b*llock naked and would never again respect him the way I used to. I suspect it always was this way and that many people reach a point of weariness circa the 12 year option point when they either persevere onwards or decide enough is enough - which is probably why there are option points.
Fortunately each new generation has within it a group of fit, motivated and capable people who will always be attracted to military life. Seems to me you are at a crossroads now: follow your heart or always think 'what if'.
Good luck
RD