why is everyone flightcrew leaving the military?
Well, the 'accreditation of military flying training and experience scheme' seems to have eased the passage (
) of a fair few folk into the civil airlines.
Originally, it was intended to keep people in until they had at elast reached the qualifying hours. But now, it seems, many are jumping before they get that far despite the generous terms we secured with the CAA for experienced QSPs.
The airlines and other commercial air transport operators are indeed expanding - and are snapping up all ex-military pilots they can. Yet no-one seems to be doing anything to encourage anyone to stay.
How long now until the whole RAF implodes?
If Binnsworth wants sympathy, it can be found in the usual place. In the dictionary, between $hit and syphilis and closer to squadron leader than sorry!
Morning, Jock!
) of a fair few folk into the civil airlines. Originally, it was intended to keep people in until they had at elast reached the qualifying hours. But now, it seems, many are jumping before they get that far despite the generous terms we secured with the CAA for experienced QSPs.
The airlines and other commercial air transport operators are indeed expanding - and are snapping up all ex-military pilots they can. Yet no-one seems to be doing anything to encourage anyone to stay.
How long now until the whole RAF implodes?
If Binnsworth wants sympathy, it can be found in the usual place. In the dictionary, between $hit and syphilis and closer to squadron leader than sorry!
Morning, Jock!
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I read somewhere that Sir Jock (of stretched but not over-stretched fame), will not go anywhere near a member of the press without at least one MoD minder. Well Sir, it appears that your people need you right now, maybe you should throw a little caution to the wind and start earning your pennies in a more visible fashion? The manning figures released yesterday show further worrying shortfalls in the RAF, things are about to take a marked change for the worse.
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To add a little more fuel to the already blazing fire of dissent, dejection, frustration and anger. Did anyone catch the 10 o clock news on the beeb last night. Seems the Herc issue has come round to bite the MoD on the A**E again. Only saw the last part but it appears the foam that was supposed to have been fitted has only be put in two ac. That as well as a general tearing down of the Air Force not being able to support lift ops due to a knackered and very old fleet of ac. But hey at least we can still find the money (over £1Bn) to poor into a certain company to continue to maintain them. That on top of all the other money that has been 'invested' in other programmes where outside companies now supposedly maintain ac, which means the Big Wigs no longer need that blue suit manpower so they can dispose of it. Oh sorry theredundancy programe has turned out to be a bit of a sham too! No I hear you say, a slight error on their part has required the standard PVR times to be enforced to prevent those who never got selected to walking staight away!
I think there will be more to come on this thread and I hope so the new report last night in general painted the Air Force in a pretty poor light - SIR JOCK take note things are not all rosey, they are in fact a pile of poo and you sir need to stand up and earn your pennies as the others say! But remember you have a very good and dedicated buch of people who are currently keeping the good ship RAF afloat but not for much longer!!!!
TGIF !!!!!!
I think there will be more to come on this thread and I hope so the new report last night in general painted the Air Force in a pretty poor light - SIR JOCK take note things are not all rosey, they are in fact a pile of poo and you sir need to stand up and earn your pennies as the others say! But remember you have a very good and dedicated buch of people who are currently keeping the good ship RAF afloat but not for much longer!!!!
TGIF !!!!!!
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Also read that Ian McNichol thinks there is nothing wrong with the air transport he obviously does not read very much I remember the AVM when I was at XV squadron not a bad bloke really but even though i left many moons ago it is glaringly obvious there ar HUGE problems it amazes me (should not really) that when things used to go right their airships were patting themselves on the back but now it is not they either deny there is a problem or worse blame everyone else.
P.S. Ian if you are reading this I am the SAC that also came from Dundee.
P.S. Ian if you are reading this I am the SAC that also came from Dundee.
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It is quite amusing to read what is acceptable MoD speak. We appear to have moved incrementally from stretched to operating at the limit. Anyone care to guess what the next increment is? Obviously excluding working beyond the limit.
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"Sir, she kannae take it"
"I Know Scotty, but just 8 more years, do the best you can"
"Aye cap'n"
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I made the decision to leave due to the fact that the majority of senior flt lt's sqn ldrs pilots I saw when i got to my station were all either PVR'd or taking their option.
I have to admit it was one of the hardest decisions i have made but now i realise it was the right decision. I met up with some of my mates at a funeral the other day and they all to a man are completely fed up and feel that there is no respect from on high for what they do or who they are.
Example: Being put on Ops 1 the weekend before you are sent to the gulf at short notice. That really boosted the boys morale!
As for the QSP hours requirement most of these guys are now seriously considering getting out as soon as and doing all the exams and the multi IR. Its has to be pretty bad when things are getting to this stage.
As for Bristol Groundschool, they are very proffesional in what they do and they helped me pass first time. I would definately recommend them.
I have to admit it was one of the hardest decisions i have made but now i realise it was the right decision. I met up with some of my mates at a funeral the other day and they all to a man are completely fed up and feel that there is no respect from on high for what they do or who they are.
Example: Being put on Ops 1 the weekend before you are sent to the gulf at short notice. That really boosted the boys morale!
As for the QSP hours requirement most of these guys are now seriously considering getting out as soon as and doing all the exams and the multi IR. Its has to be pretty bad when things are getting to this stage.
As for Bristol Groundschool, they are very proffesional in what they do and they helped me pass first time. I would definately recommend them.
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This is the link to the manning figures. Armed Forces now at 96.5% manning and dropping.
http://www.dasa.mod.uk/natstats/tsp4/tsp4tab1.html
Incidentally, as has been reported elsewhere, the British Army is now officially a defence force, as its manning has now fallen below 100,000. A spotters point, maybe, but also a hint of things to come?
http://www.dasa.mod.uk/natstats/tsp4/tsp4tab1.html
Incidentally, as has been reported elsewhere, the British Army is now officially a defence force, as its manning has now fallen below 100,000. A spotters point, maybe, but also a hint of things to come?
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Interesting stats Nige, especially the Officers Voluntary Outflow for the RAF at a new high of 4.2, almost double the figure from 2 years ago. Tells a tale!
For the uniniated VO was formally known as PVR
For the uniniated VO was formally known as PVR
Last edited by mutleyfour; 24th Nov 2006 at 10:18. Reason: Decided to explain VO
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I left in '98. The RAF had been gaining downhill momentum for some years, and, even then, I felt I left four or five years later than I should have done. Now, nearly 10 years later, the cries from you guys of overstretch, lack of pastoral care, and ever-lower sinking morale suggest that the RAF (and probably the RN and Army too) have passed the point of losing credibility as fighting forces outside the US umbrella, and are rapidly approaching the point where the decline becomes irreversible and unstoppable.
I can only suggest that you attempt to find more enlightened and purposeful employers, for whom politics are an interference and a distraction, not their reason for living.
I can only suggest that you attempt to find more enlightened and purposeful employers, for whom politics are an interference and a distraction, not their reason for living.
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They are interesting stats however looking at the index trend of PVRs
http://www.dasa.mod.uk/natstats/tsp4/tsp4tab14.html
Then the annual rates do not vary that much as a whole, with each year being compared with 1999/2000 and being pretty stable really. 2001 was an odd year and last year was down on the normal.
I guess though that you can argue any fact from stats.
However this is very telling.....
Gains to the Trained Strength of the UK Regulars in the 12 months to 30 September 2006 was 13,860p compared with 15,580 in the 12 months to 30 September 2005.
RAF Gains to Trained Strength fell by 50.2p percent (1,530p compared with 3,070)
RAF Trained Outflow rose 21.8p percent (5,080p compared with 4,170)
http://www.dasa.mod.uk/natstats/tsp4/tsp4tab14.html
Then the annual rates do not vary that much as a whole, with each year being compared with 1999/2000 and being pretty stable really. 2001 was an odd year and last year was down on the normal.
I guess though that you can argue any fact from stats.
However this is very telling.....
Gains to the Trained Strength of the UK Regulars in the 12 months to 30 September 2006 was 13,860p compared with 15,580 in the 12 months to 30 September 2005.
RAF Gains to Trained Strength fell by 50.2p percent (1,530p compared with 3,070)
RAF Trained Outflow rose 21.8p percent (5,080p compared with 4,170)
Last edited by Jambo Jet; 24th Nov 2006 at 10:44. Reason: more data
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Jambo JJ!
Yea, the MoD mandarins and service chiefs argued that very line earlier in the year. However, these stats show a very recent increase in vo, it was passed off as admin process efficiency by our illustrious leaders. However, from a subjective view, reading threads here and elsewhere I believe we are about to lurch towards a significant outflow. You could argue that many people have been hanging on to find out if they were selected for tranche 3. Finally, when sentiment changes, all bets are off. It is a brave man who states that everything is within the historical norm.
Yea, the MoD mandarins and service chiefs argued that very line earlier in the year. However, these stats show a very recent increase in vo, it was passed off as admin process efficiency by our illustrious leaders. However, from a subjective view, reading threads here and elsewhere I believe we are about to lurch towards a significant outflow. You could argue that many people have been hanging on to find out if they were selected for tranche 3. Finally, when sentiment changes, all bets are off. It is a brave man who states that everything is within the historical norm.
Last edited by nigegilb; 24th Nov 2006 at 11:21.
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For our pilots, fun flying, only 6 days away at a time, quick hop likely into left-hand seat - information here [>>>>> Contact us >>>> Careers]
Had a quick peek. Only 6 days away from home
Can that be true? More used to taking 6 days just getting there courtesy of HMG.....Not sure now whether to send my CV or a charter request for the next trip away
Had a quick peek. Only 6 days away from home
Can that be true? More used to taking 6 days just getting there courtesy of HMG.....Not sure now whether to send my CV or a charter request for the next trip away
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Numbers pulled from the stats link:
Overall:
Officers
Requirement (2) 30,040
Strength (4) 30,040
Surplus/Deficit 0
Other Ranks
Requirement (2) 155,720
Strength (4) 149,390
Surplus/Deficit -6,330
Interesting indeed...
Overall:
Officers
Requirement (2) 30,040
Strength (4) 30,040
Surplus/Deficit 0
Other Ranks
Requirement (2) 155,720
Strength (4) 149,390
Surplus/Deficit -6,330
Interesting indeed...
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Mike J
Pardon me for being slightly cynical, but any airline that is haemorrhaging pilots at the rate yours is and has to pimp itself on here just to get pilots doesn't sound tempting.
Perhaps you should consider making the travel time part of work not rest days.
Pardon me for being slightly cynical, but any airline that is haemorrhaging pilots at the rate yours is and has to pimp itself on here just to get pilots doesn't sound tempting.
Perhaps you should consider making the travel time part of work not rest days.
Getting back on thread.......
With regard to the stats published on the DASA link provided a few posts back by Jambo Jet and nigegilb - one thing to bear in mind. If you look closely at the RAF figures you will see a little 'p' next to them! 'p' is for provisional! Why provisional you may ask? Because thanks to the wonders of JPA the RAF is not even sure how many people are currently PVRing!
On my station, with the loss of SAMA, we are not even sure who is on the base. JPA tracks new arrivals and departures, but as to who was here when JPA went live....? I believe the PVR, nay 'termination', function of JPA is not working yet, so many people have filled in the old form, which then needs to be backentered by HR staff, who are overwhelmed by the current numbers!
Then again I would ask when does a PVR candidate show up on the official stats, when they first apply, or finally leave?
Finally, a large part of the problem isn't just the PVR rate, but the number of people leaving at options. The RAF has always planned on a certain percentage staying in. Whatever figure they have assumed I would say is well above the current retention rate (only 17% of Sqn Ldr ME pilots staying at 38 is a figure I have heard quoted).
There is more than enough evidence out there to show that the loss rate (PVR + option point) is well, well above historic norms. By the time the 'official' stats show it up it will probably be too late!
With regard to the stats published on the DASA link provided a few posts back by Jambo Jet and nigegilb - one thing to bear in mind. If you look closely at the RAF figures you will see a little 'p' next to them! 'p' is for provisional! Why provisional you may ask? Because thanks to the wonders of JPA the RAF is not even sure how many people are currently PVRing!
On my station, with the loss of SAMA, we are not even sure who is on the base. JPA tracks new arrivals and departures, but as to who was here when JPA went live....? I believe the PVR, nay 'termination', function of JPA is not working yet, so many people have filled in the old form, which then needs to be backentered by HR staff, who are overwhelmed by the current numbers!
Then again I would ask when does a PVR candidate show up on the official stats, when they first apply, or finally leave?
Finally, a large part of the problem isn't just the PVR rate, but the number of people leaving at options. The RAF has always planned on a certain percentage staying in. Whatever figure they have assumed I would say is well above the current retention rate (only 17% of Sqn Ldr ME pilots staying at 38 is a figure I have heard quoted).
There is more than enough evidence out there to show that the loss rate (PVR + option point) is well, well above historic norms. By the time the 'official' stats show it up it will probably be too late!
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Leaving No not long till the pension
Spannermonkey.
Fantastic post! I think that you have broke the vow of silence that a lot of people in your position are afraid to break!!. I can safely say that the "dissent" is not only felt at "your level" but also at "my level". At present I have a PVR rate in my section of over 70 percent. I am really strapped for manpower, I am working 24/7 365 be it on call or actually in my section. The late reply is due to me being called out earlier this evening for an incident that I am sure that you will all have seen on tele earlier
. Well it made the news on UTV anyway!!. The powers to be have to really sit back and re-think on where it is going wrong, Underfunded, yep heard that one before, Undermanned, yep, youth of today are not going to join up. and the Classic "Overstretched", Wait till next year when according to the PM it is all going smoothly over here!!. I think that we may have more than 2 fronts to worry about, but hey dont believe me I am but a mere cog in the wheel!!
My dad (RIP) when in the Mob used to say to me that it was the Blind leading the Blind (i.e shut up and get on with it) and I must say that was the Airforce that i joined 21 years ago, but after all this time it is now the Blind leading the guys on the ground that can see what is happening but have to put up and shut up with bosses with no back bone (Jelly fish)
Time for Change? (You know it will never happen)
I really hope that the Air****"ps really see how happy their troops are!!
By the way have they not leaned Bradenham Beeches Lately, that would save a packet. Sorry only speaking from a previous life having to guard it!!
Fantastic post!
I think that you have broke the vow of silence that a lot of people in your position are afraid to break!!. I can safely say that the "dissent" is not only felt at "your level" but also at "my level". At present I have a PVR rate in my section of over 70 percent. I am really strapped for manpower, I am working 24/7 365 be it on call or actually in my section. The late reply is due to me being called out earlier this evening for an incident that I am sure that you will all have seen on tele earlier. Well it made the news on UTV anyway!!. The powers to be have to really sit back and re-think on where it is going wrong, Underfunded, yep heard that one before, Undermanned, yep, youth of today are not going to join up. and the Classic "Overstretched", Wait till next year when according to the PM it is all going smoothly over here!!. I think that we may have more than 2 fronts to worry about, but hey dont believe me I am but a mere cog in the wheel!!My dad (RIP) when in the Mob used to say to me that it was the Blind leading the Blind (i.e shut up and get on with it) and I must say that was the Airforce that i joined 21 years ago, but after all this time it is now the Blind leading the guys on the ground that can see what is happening but have to put up and shut up with bosses with no back bone (Jelly fish)
Time for Change? (You know it will never happen)
I really hope that the Air****"ps really see how happy their troops are!!
By the way have they not leaned Bradenham Beeches Lately, that would save a packet. Sorry only speaking from a previous life having to guard it!!