why is everyone flightcrew leaving the military?
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
There appears to be an obvious connection here, where most of those leaving, or contemplating leaving, have done quite a number of years service. This reinforces the point that those who remember the quality of life and standards of service from 10 years ago or more, are quite rightly appalled by the Barnum and Baily PLC approach offered today. It also explains why new joiners are less likely to see the same problems as the more experienced personnel; if you've always been treated shabbily, you probably won't notice it when they continue to treat you shabbily.
What it further highlights is that the inhabitants of the Ivory Towers at Innsworth, Main Building or wherever, know exactly how much those terms of service have been eroded (and they have been instrumental in that erosion of course) but steadfastly refuse to acknowledge that there is a problem.
Here's a cynical thought, if you wait long enough for all you old buggers who remember being appreciated, treated with respect, and given the right equipment to do the job (in other words, stuff that costs Gordon and Tony money), to finally leave the service, are you then left with compliant young pups who know no better, or can easily be manipulated to follow the party line? Maybe creating disillusionment amongst the experienced members of the service is not viewed as a problem, maybe some Master bean-counter at Innsworth sees it as a bright new dawn, where in the future nobody has any right to respect or can remember "the good old days".
What it further highlights is that the inhabitants of the Ivory Towers at Innsworth, Main Building or wherever, know exactly how much those terms of service have been eroded (and they have been instrumental in that erosion of course) but steadfastly refuse to acknowledge that there is a problem.
Here's a cynical thought, if you wait long enough for all you old buggers who remember being appreciated, treated with respect, and given the right equipment to do the job (in other words, stuff that costs Gordon and Tony money), to finally leave the service, are you then left with compliant young pups who know no better, or can easily be manipulated to follow the party line? Maybe creating disillusionment amongst the experienced members of the service is not viewed as a problem, maybe some Master bean-counter at Innsworth sees it as a bright new dawn, where in the future nobody has any right to respect or can remember "the good old days".
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The young pups are just as aghast at the lack of spares and equipment. They joined on the strength of the careers office PR, and having passed their trade training are now finding out how brown the grass is on this side of the fence.
There's just enough old sweats to fill them in on the good old days!
There's just enough old sweats to fill them in on the good old days!
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Point taken but the average life of an Army officer is far shorter than that of a RAF officer - there has to be output from RMAS to keep this going and I don't know if this is included in the stats you quote.
G
Last edited by gijoe; 25th Nov 2006 at 10:47. Reason: spelling
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Haha that was very funny Oilcan, I left the RAF 12 years ago and you could see it heading that way then.
The comments would of been better placed in the 'RAF IN MELTDOWN' thread though..
The comments would of been better placed in the 'RAF IN MELTDOWN' thread though..
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The Plan
In the beginning was the Plan and then came the Assumption.
And the Assumptions were without form, and the Plan was completely without substance, and darkness was upon the faces of the workers.
And they spoke amongst themselves saying, “It is a crock of sh1t, and it stinketh.”
And the workers went unto their supervisors and sayeth, “It is a pail of dung and none may abide the odor thereof.”
And the supervisors went unto their managers and sayeth unto them, “It is a container of excrement and it is very strong, such that none may abide by it.”
And the managers went unto their directors and sayeth, “It is a vessel of fertilizer, and none may abide its strength.”
And the directors spoke among themselves saying to one another, “It contains that which aids plant growth, and it is very strong.”
And the directors went unto their vice presidents to sayeth unto them, “It promotes growth and is very powerful.”
And the vice presidents went unto the president and sayeth unto him, “This new plan will actively promote the growth and efficiency of this company.” And the president looked upon the Plan, and saw that it was good.
And the Plan became Policy
And this is how Sh1t Happens.
I remember something similar on the wall of my section during my first tour edited to apply to the RAF chain of command, ring any bells?
And the Assumptions were without form, and the Plan was completely without substance, and darkness was upon the faces of the workers.
And they spoke amongst themselves saying, “It is a crock of sh1t, and it stinketh.”
And the workers went unto their supervisors and sayeth, “It is a pail of dung and none may abide the odor thereof.”
And the supervisors went unto their managers and sayeth unto them, “It is a container of excrement and it is very strong, such that none may abide by it.”
And the managers went unto their directors and sayeth, “It is a vessel of fertilizer, and none may abide its strength.”
And the directors spoke among themselves saying to one another, “It contains that which aids plant growth, and it is very strong.”
And the directors went unto their vice presidents to sayeth unto them, “It promotes growth and is very powerful.”
And the vice presidents went unto the president and sayeth unto him, “This new plan will actively promote the growth and efficiency of this company.” And the president looked upon the Plan, and saw that it was good.
And the Plan became Policy
And this is how Sh1t Happens.
I remember something similar on the wall of my section during my first tour edited to apply to the RAF chain of command, ring any bells?
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I found this version:
In the beginning was ‘Front Line First’,
And then came ‘Defence Costs Studies’.
After this, came the short term savings,
And the savings were completely without substance.
And darkness was on the face of the aircrew
And they spake unto their Sqn Bosses saying
“This is a crock of ****, and it stinketh.”
And the Bosses went to their Stn Cdrs and sayeth
“It is a pail of dung, and none may abide the odour thereof.”
And the Stn Cdrs went to the AOCs and sayeth unto them
“It is a vessel of fertiliser, and none may abide its strength.”
And the AOCs went to their AOCinCs and sayeth
“It contains that which aids plant growth, and it is very strong.”
And the AOCinCs went to the CAS and sayeth unto him
“It promoteth growth, and it is very powerful.”
And the CAS went to the Minister and sayeth
“The new initiatives are actually promoting the development and efficiency of the RAF, and they are strongly recommended.”
And the Minister looked upon the RAF, and saw it was good,
And then....... the Front Line was First to take its option.
The sad fact is that this happens all too often....arrgggghhh!!!.
In the beginning was ‘Front Line First’,
And then came ‘Defence Costs Studies’.
After this, came the short term savings,
And the savings were completely without substance.
And darkness was on the face of the aircrew
And they spake unto their Sqn Bosses saying
“This is a crock of ****, and it stinketh.”
And the Bosses went to their Stn Cdrs and sayeth
“It is a pail of dung, and none may abide the odour thereof.”
And the Stn Cdrs went to the AOCs and sayeth unto them
“It is a vessel of fertiliser, and none may abide its strength.”
And the AOCs went to their AOCinCs and sayeth
“It contains that which aids plant growth, and it is very strong.”
And the AOCinCs went to the CAS and sayeth unto him
“It promoteth growth, and it is very powerful.”
And the CAS went to the Minister and sayeth
“The new initiatives are actually promoting the development and efficiency of the RAF, and they are strongly recommended.”
And the Minister looked upon the RAF, and saw it was good,
And then....... the Front Line was First to take its option.
The sad fact is that this happens all too often....arrgggghhh!!!.
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I'll just get rid of my posting reminder......
Don't let anyone try to sell you the old 'You don't know what it's like in civvy street, real workers have to work their bollox off blahdiblahdiblah'. I left 11 years ago and I look back upon (parts) of it as having an absurd dream like quality. Doing 36 hour shifts, then putting your neck on the line by signing off an a/c as being serviceable when you can barely remember what you did to it, or indeed if you did it. Working the same stupidly long hours and getting to SHQ at one minute past five to find they are closed, you all know the story, I guess it's even worse now.
Apart from the top class guys I worked with, there isn't one single little, tiny, microscopically tiny thing that I miss about being in the services. I now earn more money, I have holidays when I want them and a damn sight more than I got in the mob, and the best thing of all is....I can do exactly what I want, I no longer get the wife to answer the phone when it rings, I no longer have to disappear for months on end (the first time I went to the Falklands the locals thought I had left the wife and kids...and no one wanted to ask because they didn't want to embarrass her.....) and most importantly, if I do work hard or go away, it's because I've decided to....
Do you all remember what pit ponies were? They used to keep them underground and used them to pull coal tubs to the lift shafts. Every year, they would let them out for a week into a field where they were looked after. They used to go mad, leaping around an kicking with the joys of spring. I absolutely guarentee that it's exactly the same feeling once you leave the mob. You realise that a shadow has lifted that you didn't know was there.
Don't let anyone try to sell you the old 'You don't know what it's like in civvy street, real workers have to work their bollox off blahdiblahdiblah'. I left 11 years ago and I look back upon (parts) of it as having an absurd dream like quality. Doing 36 hour shifts, then putting your neck on the line by signing off an a/c as being serviceable when you can barely remember what you did to it, or indeed if you did it. Working the same stupidly long hours and getting to SHQ at one minute past five to find they are closed, you all know the story, I guess it's even worse now.
Apart from the top class guys I worked with, there isn't one single little, tiny, microscopically tiny thing that I miss about being in the services. I now earn more money, I have holidays when I want them and a damn sight more than I got in the mob, and the best thing of all is....I can do exactly what I want, I no longer get the wife to answer the phone when it rings, I no longer have to disappear for months on end (the first time I went to the Falklands the locals thought I had left the wife and kids...and no one wanted to ask because they didn't want to embarrass her.....) and most importantly, if I do work hard or go away, it's because I've decided to....
Do you all remember what pit ponies were? They used to keep them underground and used them to pull coal tubs to the lift shafts. Every year, they would let them out for a week into a field where they were looked after. They used to go mad, leaping around an kicking with the joys of spring. I absolutely guarentee that it's exactly the same feeling once you leave the mob. You realise that a shadow has lifted that you didn't know was there.
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Thing
Absolutely! I miss like crazy the really great people with whom I served but I am so glad I'm out - all the politics and back-biting are a thing of the past. Sure, 'politics' happen outside as well but no-one is asking me to get myself killed just to promote their career while telling me it is my duty to Serve God, Country, government or the 'greater good'.
The grass is a different shade of green but it is lush and long. However, my family is the main beneficiary of my improved lifestyle and hence we are all much happier.
It seems that, presently, loyalty in the Services is a one way street ....... and a juggernaut is coming towards you! I took the decision to get out of the way.
Absolutely! I miss like crazy the really great people with whom I served but I am so glad I'm out - all the politics and back-biting are a thing of the past. Sure, 'politics' happen outside as well but no-one is asking me to get myself killed just to promote their career while telling me it is my duty to Serve God, Country, government or the 'greater good'.
The grass is a different shade of green but it is lush and long. However, my family is the main beneficiary of my improved lifestyle and hence we are all much happier.
It seems that, presently, loyalty in the Services is a one way street ....... and a juggernaut is coming towards you! I took the decision to get out of the way.
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Thing
Absolutely! I miss like crazy the really great people with whom I served but I am so glad I'm out - all the politics and back-biting are a thing of the past. Sure, 'politics' happen outside as well but no-one is asking me to get myself killed just to promote their career while telling me it is my duty to Serve God, Country, government or the 'greater good'.
The grass is a different shade of green but it is lush and long. However, my family is the main beneficiary of my improved lifestyle and hence we are all much happier.
It seems that, presently, loyalty in the Services is a one way street ....... and a juggernaut is coming towards you! I took the decision to get out of the way.
Absolutely! I miss like crazy the really great people with whom I served but I am so glad I'm out - all the politics and back-biting are a thing of the past. Sure, 'politics' happen outside as well but no-one is asking me to get myself killed just to promote their career while telling me it is my duty to Serve God, Country, government or the 'greater good'.
The grass is a different shade of green but it is lush and long. However, my family is the main beneficiary of my improved lifestyle and hence we are all much happier.
It seems that, presently, loyalty in the Services is a one way street ....... and a juggernaut is coming towards you! I took the decision to get out of the way.
Hasn't it always been so? I went, without ever moaning (unlike some) to wherever I was sent. I did a good job, I never knowingley let the side down, I put in that bit extra. I knew what I wanted to do when I had finished my 22, and I knew I wanted to get the business off the ground before I left. So at about the 2 year point I went to see the chief clerk and asked if I was going to be sent away long term could I volunteer to do it now because if possible I wanted my final 12 months or so to be relatively hassle free. Note I said long term, I was still doing Aviano regularly and wasn't trying to shirk that responsibility. He made a few enquiries 'No, you'll be OK' he said in a nutshell. So 8 months before I'm due out, I'm in Norway (still being a good lad) and my OC rang me from UK to say I was going to the Falklands in two months.
I know they have every right to do whatever they want. I went, didn't complain, but from that day forth I'd finished with the Air Force. It was the only thing I ever asked for in 22 years, and they couldn't even manage that. I was supposed to have the 'leaving interview' with the CO before I was officially out, but I was never asked and I didn't bother asking why, not out of anger, I had already left in my head and thought it was a pointless exercise. I've no doubt it was a duty that he could do without as well. I went round with my blue card on the last day and clearly remember thinking that 22 years of service didn't even warrant a whisper from anybody. It was just a bit sad really. I felt betrayed deep down I think. Proabably shouldn't have been as bloody naieve to think that the services were 'different.' But there you go.
Last edited by thing; 27th Nov 2006 at 20:55.
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I suppose that the RAF has to get rid of most of us at/around our option points - otherwise there'd be too many 30 and 40 somethings and nowhere for the young thrusters to go. PMA must, therefore, spend an inordinate amount of time thinking up new ways to really p1ss us off!
Also, with overall numbers coming down, I presume they expect loads of us to leave in the next few years. However, they are probably a tad concerned that sooooo many are going.
Bizarrely, it would really screw up their calculations if everyone was to rescind their PVRs!!!!
The trouble is that PMA management (hahahaha) techniques worked when we were 60,000+ strong. As, however, we get down to 30,000ish and PMA miscalculate (as they may have done), then we could drop below critical mass and so implode!
Also, with overall numbers coming down, I presume they expect loads of us to leave in the next few years. However, they are probably a tad concerned that sooooo many are going.
Bizarrely, it would really screw up their calculations if everyone was to rescind their PVRs!!!!
The trouble is that PMA management (hahahaha) techniques worked when we were 60,000+ strong. As, however, we get down to 30,000ish and PMA miscalculate (as they may have done), then we could drop below critical mass and so implode!
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Just as a matter of interest, is there any evidence that anyone with any authority/interest reads Pprune, and these threads in particular?
If they do, how can anyone earning the kind of money they do for the supposed responsibility they carry not try to do something about it, or are they all totally without shame?
If they do, how can anyone earning the kind of money they do for the supposed responsibility they carry not try to do something about it, or are they all totally without shame?
Last edited by Samuel; 28th Nov 2006 at 02:45. Reason: I've just noticed a thread on this very subject!
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Thing,
Yes, I have - sorry! Obvious-like, me poor grammer be confustified you!
When I say "we", I infer that l have a great affinity and considerable empathy with those friends I left behind in the Service.
Sam,
It is a question that many often ask.........with only silence in answer! (see the 'Does Anyone Read Pprune?' thread)
Yes, I have - sorry! Obvious-like, me poor grammer be confustified you!
When I say "we", I infer that l have a great affinity and considerable empathy with those friends I left behind in the Service.
Sam,
It is a question that many often ask.........with only silence in answer! (see the 'Does Anyone Read Pprune?' thread)
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As a new member here I couldn't agree more with all of the comments in this thread. Being in a job where I spent 150+ days away last year without doing without doing an OOA only to be sent to the FI's because my poster said that I need to up my profile???? Go figure...
Enough is enough...
Investors in people we ain't
Enough is enough...
Investors in people we ain't
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Why Leave
Well,
After Just having spent two days with Mrs Zofo and Myself in trying to help as much as possible in a "Secondary Duty" passed to me by my "Lords and Masters" a couple of weeks ago, and of course trying to uphold my "Primary Duties" in the work place. Does any one else think that time is really running out on the patience of the good ol "Airman Stan" or "Cpl Yes Sir" "Suits you Sir" to carry out these tasks... I can honestly say that all I have met along the way is "Yes Sir my Troops will get it done" and a thought of "OH yes this will get me up the Commissioned Ladder" Well the time is running short and we are all getting P
d off with all of this. I have enough trouble in keeping "My secondary duty in tow at the moment" with all the Dets and OOA ops at the moment. (I speak of course of my Wife, Kids etc). I may stand corrected but many a year ago troops would PVR because they could not stand/or had an issue with maybe their boss etc.. Nowadays it is quite shocking to find that the PVR is due to the whole way that the Armed Forces are treated nowadays (Airships can you not see this)
You Really are Blind!!
I dont want to say anymore as I have Had enough after another night getting in late (Read post time) due to Our Governments Lies about "Over Here"
</Patronise/Rant>
After Just having spent two days with Mrs Zofo and Myself in trying to help as much as possible in a "Secondary Duty" passed to me by my "Lords and Masters" a couple of weeks ago, and of course trying to uphold my "Primary Duties" in the work place. Does any one else think that time is really running out on the patience of the good ol "Airman Stan" or "Cpl Yes Sir" "Suits you Sir" to carry out these tasks... I can honestly say that all I have met along the way is "Yes Sir my Troops will get it done" and a thought of "OH yes this will get me up the Commissioned Ladder" Well the time is running short and we are all getting P
d off with all of this. I have enough trouble in keeping "My secondary duty in tow at the moment" with all the Dets and OOA ops at the moment. (I speak of course of my Wife, Kids etc). I may stand corrected but many a year ago troops would PVR because they could not stand/or had an issue with maybe their boss etc.. Nowadays it is quite shocking to find that the PVR is due to the whole way that the Armed Forces are treated nowadays (Airships can you not see this)You Really are Blind!!
I dont want to say anymore as I have Had enough after another night getting in late (Read post time) due to Our Governments Lies about "Over Here"
</Patronise/Rant>
